Best Amateur Design Software

[rtowner8820]

Good afternoon all,
I have a strong desire to try my hand at designing a boat, and wonder what software exists, and what is best for amateurs. Specifically I'm looking for something that provides the following:
- For plywood construction, gives an indication on if the curves designed are realistic, considering the bend-ability of wood/plywood.
- Provides information about stability, waterline, center of effort...basically the information to make sure you don't build something that has issues.

I look forward to hearing what folks have to say!


Ryan

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

Have a look at Freeship. It will do both develop-able ply and round bilge. It includes the hydrostatics you request and will export the developed panels.

[Mikey Floyd]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

Start with a pencil and use some cardboard mockups for ply developments.

No doubt we're all individuals ("I'm not!") but unless your a pretty experienced computer user and you don't mind spending more than a few hours simply learning the program, you will have designed many boats or revisions on paper before getting just one digital one out.

'Issues' are just as easy to design however you go about it.

[debenriver]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

I like ProSurf3 by New Wave Systems. I use MaxSurf on a day to day basis but I wouldn't replace it (too expensive) and I haven't updated it in years (because mine is a Mac version and they don't offer that any more). I use a version of ProSurf, called Pilot3D, for all my skin expansions and it's impeccable.

I don't really agree that you can screw up worse on a computer than on paper. In fact somewhat the reverse. You can get the calculations and hydrostatics so much more easily and accurately than you can by hand. However you do it, you need to know what the numbers all mean and what you are aiming for.

George

[johnno]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

You should also try Hulls 32

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

George, my bon mots were intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but there is a thread of truth in them. I have worked with a lot of new designer/naval architects over the past 35 years, and have noticed that some - not all - newbies tend to get so involved in process and progress that they occasionally fail to pause to back-check the assumptions that they are working from. I started as a pencil & paper guy and morphed into 'pooters and software about twenty-five years ago. One example of where manual drafting is superior (IMHO) to CAD drafting is creating a hull form that can be easily planked: with a 'pooter it is too easy to create a fair, curvaceous hull form that is a bear to plank, whereas when using a batten & weights to draw diagonals the batten's resistance to bending to a plotted curve is a quick indicator of planking woes to come.

But, each to his own. For every problem there are many solutions, and two or three of them are probably correct.

It's that annoying thing with mental arithmetic and calculators. Unless you can do mental arithmetic, even to the extent of a close estimate, you don't know whether you are looking at garbage out because you put garbage in.
You do need to use the rate of curve functions, radius of curvature or the inverse of radius hedgehog plots, to replace being able to get down and sight along the batten.

[TR]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

..basically the information to make sure you don't build something that has issues.

This is an unrealistic expectation. Design software is nothing more than a sophisticated drafting and calculating tool. It will not design anything (despite the name), you must do that. The software can draw a hundred hulls and provide all the associated calculations, but it cannot decide which one is "best" or even "right". For a long time now folks seem to somehow have gotten the idea that CAD or computer aided design is superior to a design created by "hand". It's not. An argument to the contrary could be made. But it does allow semi-skilled people to create an accurate depiction of a curved three-dimensional object. And computer aided design (as alluded to above by MMD) is far from infallible.

[Texasgaloot]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

This is an unrealistic expectation. Design software is nothing more than a sophisticated drafting and calculating tool. It will not design anything (despite the name), you must do that. The software can draw a hundred hulls and provide all the associated calculations, but it cannot decide which one is "best" or even "right". For a long time now folks seem to somehow have gotten the idea that CAD or computer aided design is superior to a design created by "hand". It's not. An argument to the contrary could be made. But it does allow semi-skilled people to create an accurate depiction of a curved three-dimensional object. And computer aided design (as alluded to above by MMD) is far from infallible.

Case in point: the Civil Engineer who had a flock of CAD people working for him that designed the $6+ million dollar subdivision 1 foot above existing grade. Levitation?
I use AutoCAD for the hardware and Rhino3d for the hull/rig. My point of view is that which will give you the best (least) learning curve for one or two boats is a good set of sharp pencils. I have been an AutoCAD professional for 3+ decades, and I still wound up taking MacNaughton's CAD Course. Well worth the money if you are committed to learning computerized Yacht Design. Otherwise...

[VictorBravo]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

I've done a fair amount of boat doodling, and I think reading a few books and doing it by hand is a great way to start. I got an earlier edition of this book some 20 years ago and it helped solidify the basics: http://www.amazon.com/Preliminary-De.../dp/0870336215

After figuring out what everything means, I suppose FreeShips is a simple way to put it into a computer. But I confess that I spent hours trying to make it draw a simple single chine hull that I had drawn by hand in a pleasant 40 minutes on graph paper. When I finally got it, my old school definite integral calculations were within around 1% of what the program spit out.

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

I rough out a design on graph paper, then use Excel to generate the chine coordinates for uploading into Freeship.
I have used it to play with Northumbrian Cobles like this one.



The data entered does not have to be too precise, as it is easy to manipulate the chines in Freeship. So the original graph paper drawing can be rough and dirty.

[VictorBravo]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

I rough out a design on graph paper, then use Excel to generate the chine coordinates for uploading into Freeship.

I like that idea! It might get me back to trying Freeship.

[BOI]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

I have been using Freeship for a couple of months now and for the most part like it. You can twist thin 4 mm plywood into shapes that according to the program you cannot. What I don't like about it is that you can design the boat and unfold it to get the layout of the stakes, but you cannot do the reverse, design strakes and put them together to see whether it makes a boat. Paper models work better for that, so to me they are completely complementary approaches.

I haven't yet tried the input options right in Freeship, but used Carlson Hulls to create a basic shape that I imported and tweaked in Freeship. I imported only the front half a hull, which I then mirrored in Freeship to make a complete doubleended boat, but I haven't had any luck with generating numbers on stability and hydrodynamics. The manual is good for the basic stuff but doesn't really help troubleshoot the more complex calculations. I assume the mirroring is what's creating the problems.

My first plywood boat I designed using pencil and paper and then paper models, and tried only afterwards to measure the hull off and recreate it in Freeship. The boat is currently still under construction, but already looks much nicer in real life than the paper models.

I have a feeling that because the ply twists more than Freeship allows for the planks it generates are a bit "off". When I push the planks together in the program there are gaps up to 1/2" in places where in reality there aren't any, and slightly curved lines where the plywood was straight.

Best to confirm everything you do on the computer with a paper model, and also to not stray too far from existing boats that have worked for people. I won't design a boat just for the sake of doing it, I do it because what I want doesn't already exist. Sometimes taking a hull and redesigning the interior might work.

I have looked at pictures of literally hundreds of boats and made a detailed study of the lines of at least 20 to get a sense of what's out there and where the limits are on a number of dimensions. This trained my eye to recognize what looks "right". The more different boats you've actually used, the easier will be your design process because you can better define your target. And you'll get a feel for how the numbers translate to things like being able to stand up in a small boat or speed under different conditions.

I think design for rowboats or other low speed displacement boats is the most forgiving, meaning that a minor mistake can probably still be rowed or slowly motored, just not quite as efficiently, and maybe it won't look quite as good or behave as well in waves. It is easier to get a boat that's serviceable than one that's beautiful. Sailboat and planing motor boat design strikes me as way less forgiving and you have to know more to not design a dud. I also found that the size of the boat is actually as, if not more, important than the design. A boat that's 10% scaled up or down is functionally a different boat.

[john welsford]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

Is "Freeship" available for Macs?

John Welsford

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

Ummmm.

Sort of.

You can run several different official Windows on a mac - and then install Freeship in its normal windows mode...

OR

You could install "Wine" and run Freeship under that.

Be careful about which Freeship you go for - there's a freeshipplus and a free!ship as well as the original - Then there's Delftship.....


See also "Virtualbox"

[Alan H]

Re: Best Amateur Design Software

I completely understand caution regarding design when it comes to designing, say, a 40 foot powerboat for a client.

The way I see it is.... this floats and goes in the right direction when the wind blows or somebody pulls on some oars, and doesn't tend to go upside-down when put in the water..



and this also floats, goes in the right direction when the wind blows or somebody pulls on some oars, and doesn't tend to go upside-down when put in the water..



and this lovely boat also floats, goes in the right direction when the wind blows or somebody pulls on some oars, and doesn't tend to go upside-down when put in the water.



Now, the last boat may be, and probably is, a "better boat" than the first two in almost every respect. Certainly I would prefer to own the last boat, shown above. Also, it takes talent, skill and experience to design something like the last boat, shown above. But the honest truth is that the first two will WORK. You can put on your lifejacket, get in them and have some fun on the lake without spending a mint on materials and three years of your time, or more.

Seriously, I think that a lot of folks are just way, way too paranoid about designing their own small boats. A flat-bottom skiff is does not take a genius with twenty years of lofting under his belt to design and build. A forty foot yawl or an Arctic Tern DOES take those kinds of resources.