Help Choose Design

[icenine]

I wasn't sure which sub-forum to post in, so this one seemed as good as any other. Apologies if this inquiry is best suited for another place. With that out of the way...

I'm a new builder with minimal woodworking experience. Thus far, I've successfully built a fuselage frame kayak from nothing more than a builder's drawings, but it went well. I had to learn lofting and woodworking, but everything came together better than expected and I'm confident that I'm ready to finally tackle a larger project (e.g. a sailboat.)

For someone new to this, the options available in regards to plans are incredible. Unfortunately, it's difficult for me to objectively evaluate all of the designs and I'm now stuck in a holding pattern of analysis paralysis. I'm hoping that providing a "wish list" of what I want from the boat will prompt the more experienced builders on the board to chime in with their recommendations, helping me to squelch some of the noise so that I can finally pick a plan and get to it.

In the past, I owned a 26' sailboat, but after a number of years of ownership, I found it wasn't being used as often as it should and sold it. Ultimately, with time constraints, I realized that I really need something small and quick to get on the water if I want a boat that isn't going to just sit and rot. I also enjoy camping very much, and I envision a boat that will facilitate such. Having the ability to sleep in the boat (solo) with a boom tent is something I would enjoy, but ultimately, I want the option to comfortably accommodate two adults while sailing with the space to bring enough gear to camp on a beach with tents and other lightweight gear.

Perhaps it's best to have an itemized list. Any input from the community is very welcome.

• Simple and economical build, suitable for someone with my experience level. Stitch and glue with glass and epoxy is what I'm leaning towards, but I'm open to suggestion.
• Good sailing performance.
• Comfortably sail with two adults, and maybe a medium-sized dog.
• Enough storage for weekend camping gear including food and water.
• Easy to recover from a capsize.
• Built-in flotation with the ability to bail out water after recovery.
• Suitable for large bays and lakes.
• Lightweight enough to be car-topped if possible, but requiring a trailer isn't a deal-breaker.
• Smaller is better, but I'm open to more beam and length if it's necessary for my use-case.
• Ability to use my long shaft 2.5hp Suzuki.

Thank you and I look forward to your feedback.

[rgthom]

Re: Help Choose Design

Car topping would be the big constraint, it eliminates most designs unless skin on frame is an option. For trailerable designs meeting the brief there are, as you say, a lot of choices now. Are there any you have seen that you like, to start narrowing down the direction? Does appearance matter more, or functionality? Would you like a design available as kit or at least pre-cut wood, or do you want to do the lofting for fun?

[stromborg]

Re: Help Choose Design

Do you want to build a boat or go sailing? The former is an expensive, time consuming way to get to the latter.

Take a look at forum member Clint Chase's catalog, he's got some kits that'll go right along with most of your bullet list. Cartopping a boat that will comfortably haul two adults and camping gear is a stretch. What's your roof rack rated for? Easy to exceed that weight limit even if between the two of you hoisting the boat up there is in the realm of possibility.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Help Choose Design

I don't suppose too many people will be surprised to see me suggest Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III design--a great boat that I've sailed lots of miles in, on multi-week trips both solo and two-up cruising.

Not a cartopper, but can cruise 2 adults in decent comfort, even with both sleeping aboard. There's a stitch-and-glue version called First Mate as well.

2.15.jpg

I've done my own capsize testing--not easy to capsize even when you're trying, and recoverable by a single person. A really good boat, good performance to windward, tacks quickly, very pleasant to row.

4.18.jpg

Not a super-simple build, but well within reach for a motivated novice boatbuilder.

Phoenix III.jpg

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

Car topping would be the big constraint, it eliminates most designs unless skin on frame is an option. For trailerable designs meeting the brief there are, as you say, a lot of choices now. Are there any you have seen that you like, to start narrowing down the direction? Does appearance matter more, or functionality? Would you like a design available as kit or at least pre-cut wood, or do you want to do the lofting for fun?

I was afraid that car topping would be the most significant limiting factor, and I'm not averse to the idea of having to trailer the boat. The motivation behind car topping was more or less a function of easier storage in a garage. A boat small and light enough to car top could be easily stored "high" near the ceiling with ropes and pulleys, and a boat requiring a trailer would also require storage of said trailer. I suppose I could still store a larger and heavier boat this way while keeping the trailer outdoors. Ultimately I want to store the boat indoors and out of the elements.

Appearance is far less important to me than functionality. To expand on this, one of the boats that caught my eye was the Oz Goose by Storer. She certainly seems to cover the bases as far as sailing goes, but I wasn't sure how well she would do with a small outboard -- I wouldn't be rowing the boat for fun as I'm very much a paddler at heart and prefer kayaks and canoes over rowing. Irrespective, I'm very much a neophyte when it comes to evaluating sailboat design and this boat seems to be heavily skewed towards competitive racing performance, but the ease and economy of such a build is very attractive to me for a first pass at a sailboat project.

As far as a preference towards kit or scratch, I'm somewhat ambivalent. The actual process of building the boat is as attractive to me as the use of the boat. Both facets are important, but having precision cut parts could very well help to "grease the skids" for my first project of this nature.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

Do you want to build a boat or go sailing? The former is an expensive, time consuming way to get to the latter.

Emphatic "yes" to both points, and I understand that it would be both cheaper and faster to buy a used production boat. The process of building is as important to me as the actual use of the boat. Eventually I would like to build a "micro cruiser" of sorts, and this project is expected to be a step in that journey while also providing me with an end product that I will be highly likely to make frequent use of.

Take a look at forum member Clint Chase's catalog, he's got some kits that'll go right along with most of your bullet list. Cartopping a boat that will comfortably haul two adults and camping gear is a stretch. What's your roof rack rated for? Easy to exceed that weight limit even if between the two of you hoisting the boat up there is in the realm of possibility.

I appreciate the suggestion and will peruse his offerings. As far as weight limit for my roof rack, I just looked it up and the vehicle I intend to use for transport is rated for 176 lbs. As far as hoisting a boat on the roof goes, there have been no challenges with loading large and heavy sea kayaks and canoes. I expect 150 lbs. or so would be quite feasible.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

Tom, she's certainly a looker and I'll take a look at the stitch and glue variant. How do you feel she would take a motor? I already have the Suzuki, so I would like to make use of it since I'm not at all concerned about rowing. I'm very much a paddler and prefer being able to see where I'm going while under human power.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Help Choose Design

There's a self-draining motor well in the plans for the Phoenix III--not sure if First Mate also includes this. So yes, a small outboard would be fine, I'd think.

Tom

[jamieduff1981]

Re: Help Choose Design

I'm really not well enough qualified to make objective comparison from having built or owned a many boats, but for what it's worth I've enjoyed the process thus far of building my Campion Apple 16 http://www.campionboats.co.uk/apple-range.html.

From your list:

• Simple and economical build, suitable for someone with my experience level. Stitch and glue with glass and epoxy is what I'm leaning towards, but I'm open to suggestion. - plans are very inexpensive and it's been very economical on material consumption thanks to plank shapes which loft out really nicely. All the hull planks come from a pair of 8' x 4' 6mm ply boards scarphed together - so that's 4 sheets, plus another 1 to 1.5 for transom and frames. Mine is a half decked option so I've used a bit more. Whilst there's always room to improve my skills, I haven't struggled to make an attractive fit-for-purpose hull from these plans using stitch and glue construction.
• Good sailing performance. - It gets some good reviews. https://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/apple-16/
• Comfortably sail with two adults, and maybe a medium-sized dog. - Easily
• Enough storage for weekend camping gear including food and water. - Easily
• Easy to recover from a capsize. - I don't know yet, but maybe forum member dbp1 has already tested his?
• Built-in flotation with the ability to bail out water after recovery. - Options are shown on the plans for built-in floatation, and mine includes this.
• Suitable for large bays and lakes. - Definitely. Bill Haylock's Apple 16 up on the beach of a Scottish loch with camping gear out.
• Lightweight enough to be car-topped if possible, but requiring a trailer isn't a deal-breaker. - It falls down here. Empty it weighs about 100-125kg depending on the fit out. You'll need a trailer.
• Smaller is better, but I'm open to more beam and length if it's necessary for my use-case. - Again here's Bill Haylock's for an idea of room inside
• Ability to use my long shaft 2.5hp Suzuki. - Can't see any problem with that. The transom will lend itself and indeed dbp1 has added some blocking to his for his outboard.

[Woxbox]

Re: Help Choose Design

This point is key to my thinking:

Appearance is far less important to me than functionality. To expand on this, one of the boats that caught my eye was the Oz Goose by Storer.

That, plus your limited woodworking experience, leads me to suggest Mike's Boat from Jim Michalak. It's a more developed design than the Oz Goose, but still keeps things straightforward for the novice builder. These boats are very stable and sail very well. Sleeping on board is no problem, dog included.

I would strongly discourage sticking with the cartop idea. If you're going overnighting on any boat, you'll have a sizable stack of gear in the boat. Do you really want to pull it all out and cram it into the car, then hoist the boat onto the roof -- even if it's a lighter one than this? Break-down and set-up time would be greatly increased, but more to the point, you'll have a light, less secure boat than you'll really be comfortable with on those big lakes and bays.

If you go to a more traditional design, the number of hours to completion will jump significantly and there may be more of a learning curve than you're up for. But if Mike's Boat is just too plain, I'd suggest looking at John Welsford's catalog. He sometimes uses water ballast to give his boats a big range of stability. You could squeak by in a Scamp, but it would be a lot more work than building Mike's Boat.

Another thing figures in here for many builders -- a simple box of a boat tends to get a no-fuss workboat finish; build something fancy, and one starts thinking about quality woods displayed under many coats of varnish. The hours the show boat takes to build just spiral upwards.

One other point -- it's unlikely your next boat will be your last. A simple boat will get you on the water sooner with less money invested, and experience with it will serve as a vehicle to point you to the design that will fill your needs even better.

[MushCreek]

Re: Help Choose Design

As far as indoor storage goes- I made up a rig for the 18' rowboat I'm building. Although it's only about 125 lbs. or so, I found hauling it up with a block and tackle to be a chore. I was afraid that inconvenience would tend to make me not use it as often. I found a split reel, worm drive winch. The dual drums allow one cable for the bow of the boat, and one for the stern, and they both wind up at the same time and rate. The worm drive eliminates a locking system; it stays where you leave it. A few pulleys direct the cables to where they need to be. Lastly, I raise and lower it with a cordless drill. It takes less than 30 seconds to raise the boat to the 12' ceiling. It's strong enough to raise the boat AND the trailer, which is what I intend to do once everything is set up.

https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Winch/Dutton-Lainson/DL10952.html?feed=npn&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google%20%7C%20Shop%20-%20Trailer%20Winch&adgroupid=85653012946&campaignid=202839137&creative=404001548315&device=c&devicemodel=&feeditemid=&keyword=&loc_interest_ms=&loc_physical_ms=9010661&matchtype=&network=g&placement=&position=&gclid=CjwKCAjwsvujBhAXEiwA_UXnAHOnJT6Sp3MHpG-Z0n-RsawyfT1Kad-nX00DtAFLCKjv84CFmRqU0hoCChEQAvD_BwE

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I appreciate the suggestion Jamie, and the Apple 16 does appear to satisfy many of my requirements. How would you describe your boat building experience prior to undertaking the project? What are the plans like? By that I suppose I'm asking how detailed are they, how many pages, are the build steps clearly communicated and described such that a relative novice could proceed with minimal confusion, etc?

[The Jeff]

Re: Help Choose Design

Tom, she's certainly a looker and I'll take a look at the stitch and glue variant. How do you feel she would take a motor? I already have the Suzuki, so I would like to make use of it since I'm not at all concerned about rowing. I'm very much a paddler and prefer being able to see where I'm going while under human power.

There's a self-draining motor well in the plans for the Phoenix III--not sure if First Mate also includes this. So yes, a small outboard would be fine, I'd think.

Tom

I built a First Mate and the plans do show the small motor well. I've used a British Seagull half a dozen times which works, but it's pretty loud and vibrates quite a bit. At full speed I get 5.5 to 6 mph. Maybe your Suzuki would be nicer. Lately I've been working on modifying a 36 pound trolling motor which is much more pleasant to use, although its top speed is only 4.8 mph.

[johngsandusky]

Re: Help Choose Design

You might consider a large canoe. The lightest would be skin on frame, but strip plank or multichine ply aren't very heavy. An 18' can handle two, sleep one, and sail reasonably well.

[AJZimm]

Re: Help Choose Design

Looking at your original list of requirements, from my experience with years of both kayaking and sail-and-oar boating, three points occur to me:
1. A car-toppable boat is very unlikely to be compatible with the rest of the requirements. Or, at the very least, a boat that is light enough to be car-toppable will leave you frustrated that you didn’t go for a bigger design once you try to shoehorn your other requirements into it after you have built it and started using it.
2. Give careful thought to how much camping gear you actually will be bringing along. What level of camping are you planning? Backpacking level of minimalism or a few more creature comforts? Anything more than what you can fit in a backpack will increase the volume and weight-carrying ability needed. Also, don’t neglect to consider the space required for boat safety gear such as an anchor and rode and extra lines, bailing bucket and so on.
3. The amount of built-in flotation required should be sufficient to keep the lowest point above the swamped water level. That point is likely to be the top of the centreboard case, which is usually lower than the lowest point of the gunwale. Unless you choose a design that has a sealed CB case top. If the design doesn’t have a sealed CB case and sufficient buoyancy, you may not be able to bail fast enough to get ahead of the incoming water when swamped. I am skeptical that some designs have sufficient buoyancy for this. More is generally better, and can usually be used as stowage to keep your gear dry as well.