Help Choose Design

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

The article makes it clear that, after feedback from builders who experimented with different rigs, Ross Lillistone added an unstayed balance lug rig, 55 sq ft, to the plans. I think the original design did not include that option.

Tom

Perfect. The study plans must be from an older revision. An unstayed balanced lug rig is exactly what I'm looking for. If I can hang a motor while under sail, this is the one. Does anyone know if Ross Lillistone still answers emails?

[rgthom]

Re: Help Choose Design

Ross discusses adding the balance lug on his blog: http://rosslillistonewoodenboat.blog...ing-flint.html

Now that is sorted, I am afraid that I have heard Ross is mostly retired and not so available. His FB builders group is no longer active. There are a few Flint threads in this forum. I bet if you start a build thread here you would get plenty of help.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Help Choose Design

I think he's (mostly?) retired. The last post to his FB page was March 2022, and his FB builders group was archived in 2019. But having seen his plans and instructions, they are excellent.

Tom

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I love the idea of the Flint, but I'm also leaning heavily towards Welsford's Saturday Night Special. On his web page, he has a clear photo of a long-shaft outboard hanging while under sail. It seems to tick all of the boxes, but the build might be a hair more complex, and I'm unsure how detailed the plans are. Stating that, I'm not afraid of strong backs. I had to build one for my kayak which also required me to learn lofting which worked out very well. Any strong opinions on the pros and cons versus the two designs? I don't feel I'm experienced enough to make a qualitative evaluation.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Help Choose Design

I think that's Bobby Chilek and his daughter--the same SNS I sailed on when I reviewed the design for Small Boats. Here's a look at the interior:

SNS.jpg

It's a very fast boat, will plane downwind under sail, or while motoring. A big lugsail that can be reefed down pretty easily. Plans do come with full-size patterns for transom, stem, and bulkheads, I believe. One builder I interviewed said it took about 6 months of "fairly diligent work" to build.

It's a sit-on-the-bottom boat, no seats or furniture. The one thing I didn't particularly like is that long centerboard case. Combined with a not-so-high boom, that makes crew movement when tacking or gybing a little tricky. I think a solo helmsman would be behind the boom and centerboard case, so no issues there. Can take an outboard, which sounds like a plus for what you want.

This is going to feel like a much roomier boat than Flint. How much does that matter? Up to you--but it's not unusual for new sailors and builders to substantially overestimate the amount of interest there will be for anyone else to join them...
Tom

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I get the feeling you feel the Flint is the better boat.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Help Choose Design

I get the feeling you feel the Flint is the better boat.

Nope! Not at all.

I feel Flint is the boat that appeals to me more right now, for my specific purposes. I like smaller/lighter. I like rowing.

SNS is a great performer--there were 2 of them in the Texas 200 last time I was there, and they were impressive. Just not the boat for me at the moment.

Tom

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

Nope! Not at all.

I feel Flint is the boat that appeals to me more right now, for my specific purposes. I like smaller/lighter. I like rowing.

SNS is a great performer--there were 2 of them in the Texas 200 last time I was there, and they were impressive. Just not the boat for me at the moment.

Tom

Regarding sailing companions and interest, you make a very good point. If my last sailboat is an indicator, interest will be high at first and then will wane over time. Much of this will also be influenced by how cumbersome it is to transport and store the boat as well as time to get on the water. I'm hoping a smaller and less complicated boat that affords sailing, camping, and exploring without too many associated headaches will go a long way. Worst case, with a smaller boat, I have something I can enjoy solo.

For my needs, I'm likely making the wrong comparison. You have personal experience with both the Phoenix and the Saturday Night Special. How would you compare the two designs from the perspective of a beach cruiser intended to be sailed for long days on the water during multi-day trips? Which do you feel would be most comfortable (relatively speaking) for two with gear? Which do you feel is easier to handle and which is more fun to sail? My assumption is that you sailed a balanced lug for both boats.

I know I'm asking a bunch of questions, but I'm ready to narrow it down to the final choice so that I can start studying plans, preparing the build space, and acquiring the materials and any additional tools to make this happen. Thanks for all of the insight thus far.

[Andrew2]

Re: Help Choose Design

Would you be willing to expand on your thoughts regarding suitability for my intended purpose between the Mayfly and something like the Saturday Night Special or the First Mate? From what I'm reading, the Mayfly is quite popular for long distance sailing such as the Texas 200. Surely it would be a capable cruising dinghy for beach camping.
.

I think Wi Tom aswered that question very well in post 59.

I built an Oughtred Whilley Tern in 6 months of evenings and some w/end work. Gunter sloop rig. That included making the sails and the trailer. It is a very pretty double ender, but more in the Welsford level of construction. Iain Oughtred was very responsive to any quieries. One of the forward moulds didn't match up to the keel. A revised drawing arrived by return of post with a very nice letter. Seems that slipped though as I had the first set of plans (2006). Quality of plans are very good, lots of detail and his manual gives every stage of build.
Rated for three people (15ft) and about 170lbs plus the rig, but the interior does not lend itself to sleeping aboard. I sail the Atlantic coast of France.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Help Choose Design

You have personal experience with both the Phoenix and the Saturday Night Special. How would you compare the two designs from the perspective of a beach cruiser intended to be sailed for long days on the water during multi-day trips? Which do you feel would be most comfortable (relatively speaking) for two with gear? Which do you feel is easier to handle and which is more fun to sail? My assumption is that you sailed a balanced lug for both boats.

Yes, balance lug rig for both. I know there is also a spritsail sloop rig for the Phoenix III but have never sailed it. I think the balance lug may be the only option for the SNS.

But I'm sure I'm biased--I have LOTS of miles in a Phoenix III on real cruises, and only one short afternoon aboard a SNS.

Comfort for 2 + gear? I think the Phoenix III has some advantage here: actual bench/thwart seats rather than sitting on the floor, and a centerboard arrangement that is much more convenient and not in the way. That alone is probably the dealbreaker for me if you're looking for a 2-person boat. I just really hate climbing over a centerboard and under a boom at each tack. The Phoenix III successfully avoids that annoyance altogether, very clever arrangement.

But, there is a LOT of room in the SNS cockpit--more than in the Phoenix III. John Welsford suggests using cheap beanbag chairs for comfortable seating.

Light weight? Again the Phoenix III is probably lighter, but not so light you'd cartop it--so maybe this doesn't matter so much.

Dropping the mast to row? Might not matter to you, but the Phoenix III is the obvious winner here. SNS is not a rowing boat. Either boat can take a small outboard.

Performance? No real opinions here--I suspect both are good fun boats. The SNS is designed to do well off the wind/downwind, and will plane--it's very fast in the right conditions. The Phoenix III tacks quickly and reliably, very good windward performer, and also good speed, 6 knots+ by GPS on a broad reach isn't unusual.

I'd guess all my Phoenix III comments would apply to First Mate as well.

I don't know nearly as much about the SNS as I do the Phoenix. My need/desire to row a lot would make the choice easy for me. SNS is probably a quicker build? Not a super-simple instant boat, though.

Hope that helps!

Tom

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I think Wi Tom aswered that question very well in post 59.

I likely wasn't specific enough. My question was more or less in the context of sailing with a companion and not necessarily solo, things like room in the cabin for two, etc.; which wasn't really addressed in that post.

...more in the Welsford level of construction.

I find this statement interesting. What would be considered a Welsford level of construction? Again, my inexperience, but I find that statement intriguing. Regarding the Whilley Tern, I agree that she's quite the pretty boat.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

Yes, balance lug rig for both. I know there is also a spritsail sloop rig for the Phoenix III but have never sailed it. I think the balance lug may be the only option for the SNS.

That's perfect really. One mast, one sail, and no stays. I want this boat to follow the KISS principle, unlike my last which had none of the above and required inordinate time to collect, transport, and prep for the water (or the trip back home.)

Comfort for 2 + gear? I think the Phoenix III has some advantage here: actual bench/thwart seats rather than sitting on the floor, and a centerboard arrangement that is much more convenient and not in the way. That alone is probably the dealbreaker for me if you're looking for a 2-person boat.

I tend to agree, especially considering I'll be the one on the tiller and the person having to duck the boom while climbing over the trunk would be inexperienced, more in need of comfort, and less amenable to suffering the gymnastics.

But, there is a LOT of room in the SNS cockpit--more than in the Phoenix III. John Welsford suggests using cheap beanbag chairs for comfortable seating.

This almost makes me feel like a Mayfly 14 with the generously open cockpit and a leeboard would be a smart first build, not just for the relative economy and simplicity, but also as a means to test the waters with far less invested across the board. I'm looking at an additional 50 lbs. of weight, but at this point, none of the boats I'm considering are light enough to car top and will all require roughly the same floor space for storage.

Dropping the mast to row? Might not matter to you, but the Phoenix III is the obvious winner here. SNS is not a rowing boat. Either boat can take a small outboard.

Not just to row, I could see the potential for needing to drop a mast to get under a low obstruction such as a bridge, depending on where I am. Advantages to such a boat means I'll be highly mobile and could easily take it just about anywhere.

I don't know nearly as much about the SNS as I do the Phoenix. My need/desire to row a lot would make the choice easy for me. SNS is probably a quicker build? Not a super-simple instant boat, though.

Hope that helps!

I can't express how much I appreciate your willingness to share your opinions with me regarding this subject. It has been incredibly helpful. Looks like I have quite a bit of thinking to do, but I feel I'm on the cusp of making a well-informed decision thanks to everyone who has participated in this thread.

[Andrew2]

Re: Help Choose Design

I likely wasn't specific enough. My question was more or less in the context of sailing with a companion and not necessarily solo, things like room in the cabin for two, etc.; which wasn't really addressed in that post.

I was thinking on the lines of a simple, quick to build boat, verses a more complicated one. On the water, they can be equally enjoyable and the 'quicky' gets you afloat faster....



I find this statement interesting. What would be considered a Welsford level of construction? Again, my inexperience, but I find that statement intriguing. Regarding the Whilley Tern, I agree that she's quite the pretty boat.

Comparing flat bottomed, outside chine logs/stitch and goop quickys with multi chine designs with far more accurate woodworking and many more 'bits' involved.

My brother (lives in US) gave me a years WB in '91. First copy had Dynamite Payson building Bolger's Sweet Pea.I got interested in building again, but didn't do that one. Couple of false starts with the Pea and a Winter Wren , then moved countries and built the WT. Like you, the building process is part of the picture.
Funnily enough, I am nearly finished with a modified Micro, from Bolger's board. Always intrigued me, but couldn't get over the square look, so mine isn't...
A2


Edit: Duh.. My answer to your first question is 'in the box'. I thought I had seperated them. Techy, not me..

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I was thinking on the lines of a simple, quick to build boat, verses a more complicated one. On the water, they can be equally enjoyable and the 'quicky' gets you afloat faster....

The more I consider this, the more I'm thinking the "prudent" approach will be to err on the side of simple and economical to build. I know I've mentioned the Mayfly 14 several times, but much earlier in the thread I posed the Woobo as a potential Michalak option. The more I ponder, the more I'm convincing myself that the Woobo will be best combination of compromises. I don't believe she's a very common or particularly beautiful boat, but on paper, she should do everything I ask. I'll take the liberties of posting a few images here to better illustrate.






At 15' x 4' and 150 lbs, she fits the dimensional constraints and is light enough to man handle when necessary. There is a self-draining well at the stern that can hang an outboard while sailing with room for an anchor and wet, muddy gear too. Cockpit is open and generous with the leeboard, and there are sealed bulkheads fore and aft for flotation and storage. For the minimal complexity of build, modest bill of materials, and functionality afforded; I honestly can't think of a better design for me, considering my initial "wish list." The only thing that isn't covered would be the ability to car top, but based on every other requirement, that was admittedly a pipe dream.

Comparing flat bottomed, outside chine logs/stitch and goop quickys with multi chine designs with far more accurate woodworking and many more 'bits' involved.

Yes, makes perfect yes. It was certainly a large factor in the decision-making process.

Funnily enough, I am nearly finished with a modified Micro, from Bolger's board. Always intrigued me, but couldn't get over the square look, so mine isn't...

This is very interesting to me. My "next" build -- thinking ahead is dangerous stuff -- is intended to be a micro-cruiser of sorts, and the Micro is a design that I've considered. If such a thing exists, I'm very interested to see your build thread or blog.

[Andrew2]

Re: Help Choose Design

No blog or build thread, though I did put a couple of photos up on another thread to show the differences.
A2