Help Choose Design

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design (

Getting good wood is one of the most frustrating parts of building a boat these days. If we combine that issue with the need to have detailed instructions and a design that's easy to build and not too long or heavy, we're looking at buying a precut kit as the way to go. This costs more than buying a piece at a time, but it saves a surprising amount of time and assures good results.

I agree that going the kit route wouldn't be imprudent, and the costs aren't a tremendous detraction. Unfortunately, that does seem to dramatically limit choices. Perhaps a good thing in some ways as the signal to noise is distracting. With that said, I'm not looking to spend too much on my first build. I'm anticipating budgeting around $5,000 or so for this project as a "proof of concept" and will be willing to budget more in the future if this build goes well.

Personally, I won't put doug fir ply into a boat. Ive seen it act up too many times. It can even split fiberglass sheathing when it checks.

Good advice. I double-checked this morning with the local lumberyard and they specified that it's Roseburg marine-grade plywood and it's also made of fir, just like their ACX exterior-grade. So it goes.

If a 17' boat is too long, what is acceptable? The utility and seaworthiness of boats in the 12'-20' range increases measurably with every foot added. There are exceptions, of course, when a hull is unusually wide or deep for its length. Catboats, for example.

I was hoping for something under 16' which more or less is a function of the available space in my garage. Perhaps I'm being a bit conservative, but my hope is to store the boat indoors when not in use to limit dramatic temperature swings, moisture, and UV exposure. Additionally, if I'm storing a boat separate from a trailer which would need to be stored outside, a smaller and lighter boat would make it much easier to deal with, most especially if I need to do it solo.

I can vouch for Chesapeake Light Craft kits and instructions as being as close to bulletproof a system for beginners as you can get. The instruction manual is a book. But I don't see a boat in their catalog that's exactly what you seem to need. The Jimmy Skiff II is close -- but it's more of a day boat than a camping/cruising boat.

I sailed the Lighthouse Tender Peapod at CLC's Big Little Boat Festival a couple of weeks ago. This is a very attractive boat in both appearance and performance. It feels bigger than the dimensions suggest. I sailed it with a friend, and I could easily see fitting camping gear and supplies for a few days. Not so sure about sleeping onboard. Also, it's a more complicated build and does not lend itself to mounting the outboard. (Although a bracket could be built to use it if it's not too heavy.)

Great suggestions. I went to the CLC site and reviewed both designs. The Jimmy Skiff II seems to be the best fit, but when I scrolled down, they specified that it would only work with a short shaft outboard and I have a long shaft Suzuki. I would hate to have to make any major modifications to support my motor (being a new builder) and it would likely end up looking like a hacked on kludge. The Peapod is absolutely beautiful and something I would be very proud to build and own, but being a double-ender, I was skeptical it would support an outboard. Reading further down, the designer specifically stated that it will not work with a motor. I bought the Suzuki (new) a few years ago, expecting to have a use for it, but plans changed for a number of reasons; hence part of my desire to incorporate use of the outboard in my planning.

Looking at Clint Chase's kits, the ever-popular Goat Island Skiff might work for you if 16' is not too much. Built as an expedition boat, I think you'd want to add watertight side benches that would double as stowage lockers. I have not seen Clint's build manual, others here have and could fill you in on that. He has a video on his site that goes through the kit process. I can say that Clint is a very detail-oriented guy who leaves nothing to chance. Down a size from the GIS is Clint's Caravelle Skiff. But like the Jimmy Skiff, it's aimed more at daysailing.

I've heard that the GIS can be a bit tender (not as important for me as much as it would be for a passenger), but has good sailing performance. I'm not sure how much there is to that, having never seen one. Another design that I've taken a look at, also available as a CNC kit, is the Oonagh. Do you have any familiarity with this design? I feel that it might work out even though she looks a little small.

https://www.offcenterharbor.com/oonagh-sailing-dinghy-plans-kit-arriba-hylan/

Of the Welsford Boats, the Navigator -- possibly his most popular design -- hits all the buttons for your intentions. I don't know why, but this line of Welsford boats - the Navigator and others with similar hull shapes -- sail better than they should, looking at the basic numbers. The Navigator would be much more seaworthy than either of the skiffs mentioned above and could be a keeper boat, not a learner boat. But ... I'm not aware of a source for a CNC kit for this boat, and it is probably more complicated and heavier than what you want to tackle.

I've taken a look at the Navigator and she's a bit heavier than I would've preferred. I'm also looking for something with simpler rigging like a single mast with a balanced lug. Couldn't find a CNC kit for the boat either, and I spoke on the phone with someone yesterday who mentioned that Welsford's plans don't have the same level of detail and clarity as other designers. This wouldn't be as big of a concern to me if this wasn't my first "real" boat project, but I feel it would be important to have plans intended for new builders at this stage.

Speaking of CNC kits, what are your thoughts on full-sized plans? In my mind this would require more time and effort over a CNC kit, but it would also help to eliminate a source of easy errors. At the very least, it would afford a broader array of potential designs.

Good luck coming to a conclusion! I've been through this process quite a few times. Sooner or later a light goes on and a decision is made.

I appreciate it. Thankfully I'm not in a rush with some arbitrary deadline in mind. Ideally I get something on the water by next summer, but it isn't critical and am taking a deliberate and patient approach. I want my first boat to be something I will want to use often and keep for a long time. I don't really want to build a boat to be deprecated quickly.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

It's always exciting seeing someone go through the process of choosing a design and then building a boat. I'm strictly an amateur, but I have built four boats - 3 stitch and glue and the last lapstrake/epoxy. Three were sail/oar boats and one was a canoe. I had had a lot of experience with home projects (room additions, sheds, decks, etc) so building a boat wasn't terribly daunting. The epoxy/fiberglass thing was new, of course. I would say that all of them have been done with a comparable amount of finish. The earlier builds did give me confidence, but in hindsight, I could have built my last first.

Hindsight and all... Ha ha. One of these days, I hope to be able to say the same!

Tangentially related, but the build thread you linked states Chattanooga and you're not too terribly far away. If I may ask, did you build from plans or a kit? If from plans, where the heck did you get your wood? Your profile now says NW Georgia. Is there a good supplier nearby? I also have a very old friend who lives in Atlanta and could justify a trip to haul back wood if I also used that time to visit and enjoy good company, perhaps squeezing in a quick paddle of the Chattahoochie while I'm at it.

I enjoy the building process as well as the sailing. My brief would be very similar to yours minus the outboard. My last build was a Clint Chase Calendar Islands Yawl 16. I'll be single-handing most of the time, taking a grandkid or two occasionally, hopefully my wife for a leisurely row occasionally, and camp cruising occasionally - normally sleeping on the boat.

Yes, very similar. The primary reason I want the outboard is because I already have it, and I want it as an option when the winds aren't favorable or in tight spaces where sailing isn't the best option. I could row, but it isn't something that I would ever do for enjoyment over taking a kayak or canoe somewhere.

I started small and then went larger (7'6", 11', 15'6"). I wish I had a garage to keep the CIY in, but I do not.

How long have you stored her outdoors and how is she doing in our Southeastern climate?

Enjoy the process and keep us posted!

Thank you. Once I've finally settled on a design and begin the building process, my plan is to document it here as I trudge along. If nothing else, it would help me to have a running log of sorts and maybe others can get something of value from it.

[stromborg]

Re: Help Choose Design

Being a pram, Oonagh has more useful space than a more "traditional" pointy-ended boat of 11'-8" LOA will have. It also has that nifty series videos demonstrating the build, they would go a long way towards helping a new builder be successful.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

Being a pram, Oonagh has more useful space than a more "traditional" pointy-ended boat of 11'-8" LOA will have. It also has that nifty series videos demonstrating the build, they would go a long way towards helping a new builder be successful.

Absolutely. She seems to tick all of the boxes, and complete cost should fit within my anticipated $5K budget as well. My gut tells me I may have stumbled upon a winner, but I don't want to be overly enthusiastic. Can you (or any other members) talk me out of this design and point out any potential pitfalls with this choice? The level of documentation seems to be unmatched, the kit appears to be reasonably priced, and although she's not as comely as other designs suggested, I feel this will be made up for by the function. Looking far into the future, I also see her as being a great choice for a tender if and when I have a larger boat. Surely I'm missing some big detractions masked by my inexperience!

[stromborg]

Re: Help Choose Design

I'm the wrong person to talk you out of Oonagh, it's one of those small boats I keep thinking it would be very cool to build and use. But...looking out my window I can see three small boats that don't get used enough...the "mothership" is in her slip wondering why I haven't been out sailing yet this week...there is a set of plans for a Drake 17 gathering dust in the shop (I had big plans to row in the 70/48 this year, oh well there is always next winter to build that one) ...then there is my big segue-into-retirement boat project I'm gathering bits and pieces towards....and a VW van restoration that wants to be finished and put back on the road...

It would be great to see Oonagh get built here.

[Woxbox]

Re: Help Choose Design

The GIS has a lot of sail for its weight. This makes it fast and lively, and probably makes it feel tender when under way. But it is a flat-bottomed, 5' wide boat. I haven't sailed one, but that shape has to be stable at the dock. Sailing with a reef tied in would calm it down nicely when a relaxed time is desired.

I don't know anymore about the Oonagh than what is shown on that Off Center Harbor video. But it is, after all, designed to be a tender, not a cruising boat. Not to say it's not a nice dinghy, but I think you would outgrow it very quickly.


One question about that motor -- could you not sell it and buy a short-shaft motor appropriate to whatever design you settle on? I put a trolling motor on my one-ton Autumn Leaves and find it adequate for getting in and out of harbors and marinas. (BTW, this boat is a CLC kit - but a "Pro Kit" which means it does not come with the instruction book.)

A final thought -- the Goat Island Skiff strikes me as the closest match for all the requirements you have mentioned. Buying the kit from Clint Chase would blow your budget, however. But if you were to order all the materials individually wherever you could get the best deals, I'm pretty sure you could keep the cost where you want it. For example, there's a plywood supplier in Maryland that delivers Okoume ply to my front door in Pennsylvania free of charge, and the ply costs themselves are very reasonable. I don't know if they deliver to your neighborhood, but even if you had to pay for shipping, you'd still be ahead of the cost of buying the ply already cut to size in a kit. (Harbor Sales) The GIS plans come with a detailed step-by-step instruction manual, and the boat itself is a very straight-forward design. I'll bet you could build one.

[NeilMB]

Re: Help Choose Design

Welsford's Saturday Night Special http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/sns/index.htm would be one of my top suggestions for a first two-person sail-and-oar camping boat, along with First Mate. When I decided to build my Featherwind, I ended up with a spreadsheet of different options that I considered. If you're interested in what I looked at and the data I recorded, it's all here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Cartopping is not completely out of the question, but it does lead to additional compromises. My Featherwind is about 16 feet long, easily has room for two and gear and is very simple to build and completly possible to put on top of a (large) car.

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The trade-off for light weight is that the interior is completely bare. In particular, it doesn't include any reserve buoyancy or seating at all. For minimal weight, every piece of wood has to be ruthlessly devoted to keeping water out. As soon as your start adding interior furniture, you probably give up the option of cartopping. Hum weighs about 100 pounds just for the hull and I've put it up and down by myself from that Suburban dozens of times. I haven't worked out a way to sleep inside either, but that hasn't been a problem, I love tent camping and I'm happy to come ashore and set up.

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There's a build thread here http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...viable-boat%94 if you'd like to see more about what it takes woodworking-wise to build the boat (not very much). Not talking you out of anything, just sharing another option.

Two related thoughts from a recent small boat gathering. First, your boat should be right for how you want to use and enjoy it, not for anyone else. Hum is plain jane and unimpressive and highly ordinary and fits exactly what I want my little boat to be. Second, everything is on a sliding scale. Small boat owners are mostly inured to dealing with trailers so it seems like no big deal to them. Boaters in general are also inured to what seem like extremely costly parts to me, but it's customary for them so they are not bothered by it.

And finally, massive encouragement for the asking of questions, considering of alternatives, making a choice, doing the steps and reaping the rewards. It has been one of my most rewarding hobby experiences ever over the last year and a half.

-Neil

[Etdbob]

Re: Help Choose Design

I too second the "200 dollar" version of the Bolger Featherwind
I built one outside in a few weekends.

It is the biggest easily-cartopped boat I know of. It is also very easy to build, and preforms very well under sail and good enough under oars that you'll not need the outboard. The plans are cheap and very thorough. You CAN"T put an outboard motor on it! (maybe a trolling motor).

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If you just gotta hang that outboard on the back that really complicates things a bit, but there are some designs that will take a small motor -

The Bolger Gypsy is a relatively simple stich-and -glue design that has been around for some time and is well proven. It usually weighs about 150 pounds, sails and rows very well, can be car-topped if you are determined, and will take a small motor.



Plans are well done and only 45 bucks - Gypsy – 15′ x 4′-4″ – H.H. Payson & Company (instantboats.com)

More info on it -
Gypsy (duckworksmagazine.com)


One way to car-top it -

Cartopping a Phil Bolger Gypsy - YouTube



The book "Build the New Instant Boats" details construction step by step. That's it on the cover -
About Our Books – H.H. Payson & Company (instantboats.com)

[Etdbob]

Re: Help Choose Design

Anyone remember the Bolger Common Sense Skiff?
Design 571.

It checks all the boxes but you'd need a simple flat bed utility trailer.

You'd have to write to Bolger and Friends for plans.

[Etdbob]

Re: Help Choose Design

The Bolger Thomaston Galley is another combination boat that sails and rows well and takes a small motor.

This isn't an "instant" boat, you'd need to loft it. However, it isn't all that hard to build and Paysons book "Go Build Your Own Boat!" covers it step by step. I've been tempted to build one.


Not as popular as the "Instant boats", and apparently not many built. Bit hard to find good photos of it.

[Etdbob]

Re: Help Choose Design

Earlier you asked about Jim Michalaks plans -

Uh, yes, Jimm Michalaks plans are crude and usually not corrected. I've built one of his designs full size and modeled several. His plans often tick me off!
But, he has lots of designs, some are quite popular and work well.

You should take a look at the plans at Duckworks, too many to list!

I'll leave you with one last idea -

How about a cat boat?

This is the Selway Fisher Petrel.

It's only 13 feet long, but it's a cat-boat, all of six feet wide with a big sail to drive it. easily carries a pretty big outboard motor, sails well, dry storage, plenty of room for camping. Stich and glue construction, takes eleven sheets of plywood to make.

I could have an awful lot of fun with one of these but this is a relatively expensive boat and will take you all winter, if not all year, to build.

[dalekidd]

Re: Help Choose Design

the build thread you linked states Chattanooga and you're not too terribly far away. If I may ask, did you build from plans or a kit? If from plans, where the heck did you get your wood? Your profile now says NW Georgia. Is there a good supplier nearby? I also have a very old friend who lives in Atlanta and could justify a trip to haul back wood if I also used that time to visit and enjoy good company, perhaps squeezing in a quick paddle of the Chattahoochie while I'm at it… How long have you stored her outdoors and how is she doing in our Southeastern climate?

I live in GA just across the TN/GA state line from Chattanooga. I sail mostly on the Tennessee River. I built from plans and ordered my plywood from Bedard Yacht Design in Tarpon Springs, FL: had it shipped to a terminal where I picked it up. Shipping was very reasonable. Bedards was very helpful in working that out. I repurposed some Douglas Fir that I found on Craigslist and rescued a bunch of cedar from a building due for demolition. I did buy a few pieces of “select” wood from Lowes which I used for my oars, yard, boomkin and mizzen sprit boom. There is a supplier in Atlanta that has 4 & 6mm okoume. I needed a couple sheets of 9mm in addition to several 6mm.

I just finished my boat last fall. I’m not too worried about storing it outdoors. It’s good plywood sealed with epoxy and 4-5 coats of primer & paint. The bright wood is finished in 3-4 coats of Minwax Helmsman Spar Urethane.

Hope this helps.

[Andrew2]

Re: Help Choose Design

Just a thought, but on the subject of the outboard, it is relatively easy to convert most of them to short shaft. Probably the only bit you would need to buy would be the short driveshaft, so, if your prefered design works better with a short shaft, don't let it be a hurdle.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I don't know anymore about the Oonagh than what is shown on that Off Center Harbor video. But it is, after all, designed to be a tender, not a cruising boat. Not to say it's not a nice dinghy, but I think you would outgrow it very quickly.

Good points. I made an inquiry to the designer yesterday and heard back this morning. This design isn't really suitable for hanging an outboard while sailing, so she's off the list.

One question about that motor -- could you not sell it and buy a short-shaft motor appropriate to whatever design you settle on? I put a trolling motor on my one-ton Autumn Leaves and find it adequate for getting in and out of harbors and marinas. (BTW, this boat is a CLC kit - but a "Pro Kit" which means it does not come with the instruction book.)

First I want to mention that the Autumn Leaves appears to be quite the nice boat. As far as selling the motor goes, I want to keep it. I like the motor very much and see a use for it in the future beyond my introductory build. A few posts down someone mentions conversion to short shaft which is something I may consider if necessary.

The GIS plans come with a detailed step-by-step instruction manual, and the boat itself is a very straight-forward design. I'll bet you could build one.

The GIS seems to be a very popular choice, and is reputed to perform very well. The level of documentation and the community of builders is certainly attractive, and I wouldn't be averse to purchasing the plywood kit as it should be easy to source the lumber locally. Stating that, I'm a little unsure about a few aspects of the design. First, I've read significant feedback that she's difficult to re-enter after a capsize and very unstable. Many examples I've seen have swim ladders attached for this reason. Another potential concern is the very sharp point formed at the base of the bow. Would this be easily damaged or a point of significant wear with repeated beaching? Lastly, the flat bottom looks like she would beat the crew to death in chop, but I don't have any experience with flat bottomed boats outside of the ubiquitous aluminum Jon boats that are popular among fishermen and hunters.

Last night I remembered that I was gifted a book years ago about boat building, but I wasn't ready to build anything at that stage so I never did more than give it a cursory glance. Thankfully, I still had it and discovered that it was a book written by Michalak, intended for beginning boat builders. There are a number of designs in the book, but it seems to primarily focus on a design that could suit my needs: the Mayfly 14. The design also specifies external chine logs which look as if they would reinforce the hull exterior, especially the bow, addressing my concerns with the GIS. At the very least, she looks to be a quick and simple build, with the designer even specifying the use of AC exterior plywood which is readily available here from every lumberyard, even the big box stores.

For my first build, perhaps I should consider something quick and cheap, with easily sourced materials. The completed build would fall far below my initial budget, and if I were to outgrow or dislike the boat, I could easily gift her to a number of people and move on to a different design with experience under my belt to boot. Having sewn my own DIY backpacking equipment including many sleeping bags and shelters, I'm confident I could follow his sail building instructions as well. Any thoughts on this or experience with the Mayfly? Can you see any problems with this approach?

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

Welsford's Saturday Night Special http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/sns/index.htm would be one of my top suggestions for a first two-person sail-and-oar camping boat, along with First Mate.

Thank you for bringing the SNS to my attention. I agree, both that design and the First Mate are certainly on my short list at this point. Not factoring the quality of build instruction, for my tastes, the SNS slightly edges out the First Mate and seems to check all of the boxes.

My Featherwind is about 16 feet long, easily has room for two and gear and is very simple to build and completly possible to put on top of a (large) car.

This design is interesting to me as it appears to be a dirt cheap and quick build. For my first boat, those are admirable qualities. Length is a bit too long, but something with less time and money invested would be easier for me to justify storing outdoors. Unfortunately, it seems the designer has since passed away, and it's apparently impossible to acquire plans. Do you know of a way to purchase plans for this design?