Help Choose Design

[jamieduff1981]

Re: Help Choose Design

Hi,

I'd built radio controlled model aeroplanes from plans before, have been a scale modeller for a long time, do lots of mechanical work on cars and more recently did door frames, door hanging and skirting boards etc on my house rebuild after a fire to save some money after the heavy stuff was done. That's it. I've never built a boat before.

My Apple 16 build has been quite straight forward I think. I've had to ask the designer for help on a few points, partly because I don't know what I'm doing and partly because my decision to go for the gaff cutter rig has greatly complicated matters. It was designed as the balanced lugger version and the plans and instructions are really very straight forward for that. The gaff cutter has some new drawings, uses some of the original drawings and there's a supplementary narrative but it's still necessary to refer to the original. I've managed it though. If you went for the original balanced lugger rig it would be very simple.

Here's the folder on my computer showing the plans files. There is actually one more showing hinged centreboard details which I have in the "Drawings Not Used" folder as my rig needs the daggerboard to be moveable fore and aft for when the jib is used or not. I've crossed out everything you could forget about if you went for the original rig and internal fit out like Bill's above.



Several of the files are presenting the lofting data for the strakes in different ways to aid understanding. The "Apple AHL offset table" file has the actual x,y coordinates in millimetres to read off for each station on each plank. The "Apple AhL Scarfed Strakes final layout" is simply an illustration showing you how to use the offset table and showing what the planks are supposed to look like lofted out onto the 16ft x 4ft ply boards you made by joining 2 8 x 4s.

I just assembled it with tiewraps. I am happy to admit that assembling it on the floor I was initially quite alarmed/dismayed that I may have made a serious error in lofting as the planks up at the bow just wouldn't close up. It's showing my inexperience here because when I realised I had to get it off the floor onto a pair of horses and did so, the middle of the hull sagged into shape properly, the gaps at the bow all disappeared and the tiewraps there went slack all of their own accord...



The only thing I've really been concerned about as a first timer using this construction method is remembering to check and double check the hull wasn't twisted before taping the seams and gluing in bulkheads. The hull remained fairly floppy overall until the gunwales were glued on then it suddenly felt like a boat when having to handle it. The shape otherwise pretty much takes care of itself.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

That, plus your limited woodworking experience, leads me to suggest Mike's Boat from Jim Michalak. It's a more developed design than the Oz Goose, but still keeps things straightforward for the novice builder. These boats are very stable and sail very well. Sleeping on board is no problem, dog included.

For the most part, I had disqualified the Oz Goose for a number of reasons. I don't believe it would be the best design for my intended purpose -- beach cruising if I'm not misusing the term. Mentioning it seemed to be the most effective way to communicate my strong preference for function over form as well as my desire for ease and economy of build, considering my level of experience stops with a multi-chine fuselage frame kayak. I would hate to invest the time, not to mention the materials, in a design that exceeds my abilities at this stage.

Your suggestion of Mike's Boat is very much appreciated. Unfortunately, at 17' and 450 lbs., it's a bit longer and heavier than I would like. One of Michalak's designs that initially caught my eye was the Piccup Pram, but she's a bit too small. Eventually I stumbled across his Woobo which seems to land in the middle of the two designs and at 15' and 150 lbs. could very well hit the "sweet spot" of compromises. Do you have any experience with this design?

Speaking of Michalak, how are his plans? Are they sparse affairs? For my first "real" boat build, I will likely need detailed plans with verbose explanations and concise build instructions. Realistically speaking, at my experience level, having very detailed plans is as important to me as the boat design itself if not more so.

I would strongly discourage sticking with the cartop idea. If you're going overnighting on any boat, you'll have a sizable stack of gear in the boat. Do you really want to pull it all out and cram it into the car, then hoist the boat onto the roof -- even if it's a lighter one than this? Break-down and set-up time would be greatly increased, but more to the point, you'll have a light, less secure boat than you'll really be comfortable with on those big lakes and bays.

I'm not certain that the gear concerns would be an issue for me. One of my passions is long distance backpacking. It's not uncommon for me to have a base weight of 10-15 lbs. for all of my gear, minus food and water, with everything (including food and water) fitting in a 55 liter backpack. I'm certainly not looking to bring a large Yeti aboard with a case of beer and steaks, and I'm able to fit everything I need for multi-night trips in kayaks with much more modest storage.

I believe the size of something that could be car topped will be my limiting factor. Although I have a high threshold for suffering, I can't say the same for sailing companions. Not everyone is wired for "type II" fun.

If you go to a more traditional design, the number of hours to completion will jump significantly and there may be more of a learning curve than you're up for. But if Mike's Boat is just too plain, I'd suggest looking at John Welsford's catalog. He sometimes uses water ballast to give his boats a big range of stability. You could squeak by in a Scamp, but it would be a lot more work than building Mike's Boat.

I did consider the SCAMP, but as you state, the build seems much more complex and I didn't feel I should take on such a project as my first "real" boat build. Of his designs, which would be on your short list, accounting for everything discussed at this point? As with Michalak, how are his plans and build instructions?

Another thing figures in here for many builders -- a simple box of a boat tends to get a no-fuss workboat finish; build something fancy, and one starts thinking about quality woods displayed under many coats of varnish. The hours the show boat takes to build just spiral upwards.

I completely agree. I would prefer not to have something I'm afraid to bang up a little. I'm wanting a boat that will not only be a incremental step in my "education" in boat building, but also something that I will use. I have no illusions that my first effort will be something that would impress anyone, and it's more important to me to have something that will be seaworthy and fun to sail without being too cumbersome to transport, store, or maintain. My prior sailboat was fun to use on the water, but too much of a time (and money) sink in every other way considering it wasn't my primary focus or hobby.

One other point -- it's unlikely your next boat will be your last. A simple boat will get you on the water sooner with less money invested, and experience with it will serve as a vehicle to point you to the design that will fill your needs even better.

I don't expect it to be my last. I enjoy tinkering and making things, but working with wood, epoxy, and fiberglass isn't something where I have much experience. An easier and more economical build seems prudent to me, and I tend to agree with the overwhelming majority of the points that you bring up. Unfortunately, Mike's Boat is a bit larger than optimal for my first sailboat and use-case. Any other suggestions you might have will be much appreciated.

To digress, perhaps you wouldn't mind if I asked a couple of questions regarding materials. Not being terribly close to the coast, marine plywood is difficult to come by locally. I have found one supplier who carries marine plywood, but it's ABX. Is this a reasonable grade of plywood to work with? They also have ACX Fir. Considering the boat I will build will be sheathed in epoxy and glass, is "marine" plywood a critical component over exterior plywood as long as the exterior plywood has a minimum of voids? Saving money is less important than doing the job right, but I also don't want to spend money I don't have to for my first build if it's not so critical.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I built a First Mate and the plans do show the small motor well. I've used a British Seagull half a dozen times which works, but it's pretty loud and vibrates quite a bit. At full speed I get 5.5 to 6 mph. Maybe your Suzuki would be nicer. Lately I've been working on modifying a 36 pound trolling motor which is much more pleasant to use, although its top speed is only 4.8 mph.

The First Mate is certainly on my short list at this point, and I appreciate you chiming in. I'm not familiar with the British Seagull aside from knowing it's a very old 2-stroke design, but my assumption is that the Suzuki would be a better experience. Ideally I will be sailing and not motoring, only using the motor when absolutely necessary.

How would you describe the quality of plans for the First Mate? How do you feel about the roominess of the cockpit, especially with passengers. What was your boat building or woodworking experience like prior to undertaking the build? If you had to do it again, would you choose the same design and if not, what would build instead?

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

You might consider a large canoe. The lightest would be skin on frame, but strip plank or multichine ply aren't very heavy. An 18' can handle two, sleep one, and sail reasonably well.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I already have a canoe and I'm looking for something shorter and broader. Now that I've accepted the reality that car topping isn't really feasible for my intended purpose, having something incredibly light is far less important. Unfortunately, LOA is very much a concern and I will not be able to accommodate a boat that long in the available space I have for indoor storage -- critical in my mind for a wooden boat.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

1. A car-toppable boat is very unlikely to be compatible with the rest of the requirements. Or, at the very least, a boat that is light enough to be car-toppable will leave you frustrated that you didn’t go for a bigger design once you try to shoehorn your other requirements into it after you have built it and started using it.

Agreed and I accept that car topping isn't realistic.

2. Give careful thought to how much camping gear you actually will be bringing along. What level of camping are you planning? Backpacking level of minimalism or a few more creature comforts? Anything more than what you can fit in a backpack will increase the volume and weight-carrying ability needed. Also, don’t neglect to consider the space required for boat safety gear such as an anchor and rode and extra lines, bailing bucket and so on.

You sound like a backpacker. Think 10-15 lbs. base weight. Realistically, I would bump that number up a hair to bring a 3 or 4 person freestanding tent, but it wouldn't add more than a few extra pounds.

3. The amount of built-in flotation required should be sufficient to keep the lowest point above the swamped water level. That point is likely to be the top of the centreboard case, which is usually lower than the lowest point of the gunwale. Unless you choose a design that has a sealed CB case top. If the design doesn’t have a sealed CB case and sufficient buoyancy, you may not be able to bail fast enough to get ahead of the incoming water when swamped. I am skeptical that some designs have sufficient buoyancy for this. More is generally better, and can usually be used as stowage to keep your gear dry as well.

Any designs you would recommend?

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

I'd built radio controlled model aeroplanes from plans before, have been a scale modeller for a long time, do lots of mechanical work on cars and more recently did door frames, door hanging and skirting boards etc on my house rebuild after a fire to save some money after the heavy stuff was done. That's it. I've never built a boat before.

It sounds as if we have a somewhat similar level of baseline experience. I've built sheds, repaired fences, hung doors, helped roof a house, built wooden plane models, my SOF kayak, etc. I also dabble in electronics and mechanical work.

Looking at your folder screenshot gives me the impression that the plans are comprehensive too. That's helpful. Is the designer easy to contact and does he reply promptly? One of my concerns, especially regarding a boat like the First Mate, is that in that case, the designer has apparently retired and no longer provides any support or communication. I prefer not having to reach out to a designer with my questions, but it's important to have that option available if I really get stuck or have a question I can't get answered through another avenue.

[WI-Tom]

Re: Help Choose Design

A few more thoughts:

Ross Lillistone has great plans (Phoenix III/First Mate)--very detailed and accurate in my experience. Also YouTube videos to show various things. I learned a lot from him.

Jim Michalak's plans are fine, accurate, etc. But not as detailed in my experience (I've only got his Mixer plans, but I think this is mostly true)--no real construction manual, I think, just mostly plans with some comments. But then his designs are probaly simpler to build than most. Very cheap plans--but then, plans are a small part of the cost. But a Michalak boat would be a good first build to get on the water relatively quickly if that matters.

As for room in the Phoenix III/First Mate, I'd describe it as comfortable for 2 adults, but not much room to spare--one at the helm, one on the rowing thwart. It works best if both know enough about sailing to move to the right spot at the right time during maneuvers. Even on week-long trips, I've slept 2 adults on board in pretty decent comfort--like a small 2-person tent for backpacking. Depends how cozy you want to be. 3 people would be at least one person too many for me. I am undoubtedly biased, but I don't think you can find a better boat in this size range (15' 1" long, I think). Weight probably around 170 lbs or so, I'd guess.

Tom

[The Jeff]

Re: Help Choose Design

The First Mate is certainly on my short list at this point, and I appreciate you chiming in. I'm not familiar with the British Seagull aside from knowing it's a very old 2-stroke design, but my assumption is that the Suzuki would be a better experience. Ideally I will be sailing and not motoring, only using the motor when absolutely necessary.

How would you describe the quality of plans for the First Mate? How do you feel about the roominess of the cockpit, especially with passengers. What was your boat building or woodworking experience like prior to undertaking the build? If you had to do it again, would you choose the same design and if not, what would build instead?

I would call myself decently handy before I started the build. I'd done a little bit of all parts of house construction and grew up playing in my dad's wood shop so I knew enough to not cut any fingers off. I did have a good background in welding, machining, and CAD so that helped me in visualizing the plans and keeping track of everything in a 3d model. It's a lot easier to figure this stuff out on a computer screen before cutting into expensive plywood. One tip, try not to think of the totality of the project. You're not building a boat, you're mostly just doing a ton of small, easily accomplished jobs. It really is just marking, cutting, and gluing.

Roominess, I think the boat is ideal for one person and (depending on the conditions) ok with a novice passenger. I had a great time with a friend who also sails since he knew what to do. Keep in mind I have the sprit rig and jib, so things are a little more complicated than with just the lug rig. As far as sleeping aboard goes, I'll defer to Tom's experience. I only have three overnight trips and I think I'd need to be pretty good friends with whoever else sleeps aboard.

I'm planning to build a Welsford Long Steps towards the end of the year, but only because my needs have changed. I want to go on some bigger trips and carry a passenger or two in more comfort. I think the First Mate is a great boat... check out the building pages on my blog and you can see how everything goes together. All the information is also here, but scattered throughout my build thread.

I thought the plans were very good. They're computer drawn and certainly better than the hand drawn plans for Long Steps which are a bit cluttered and tough to read in places. The First Mate also comes with a ~70 page instruction manual with tons of pictures detailing each step.

[jamieduff1981]

Re: Help Choose Design

Is the designer easy to contact and does he reply promptly? One of my concerns, especially regarding a boat like the First Mate, is that in that case, the designer has apparently retired and no longer provides any support or communication. I prefer not having to reach out to a designer with my questions, but it's important to have that option available if I really get stuck or have a question I can't get answered through another avenue.

Yeah his website is a bit old fashioned actually so to order you have to email him and you get his contacts that way. He's always responded to me within a couple of days which has been fine for me - I assume he has a life outside of selling boat plans etc. He told me actually that the majority of plans are sold to people and he never hears anything from them ever again. Either that's because it's unnecessary or perhaps more likely people buying them because it's £55 GBP for PDF plans versus $500ish for some e.g. Oughtred plans and people probably buy them before they've really committed to the idea of building a boat and then decide they don't have time or space etc.

He's always been very helpful to me. It feels like you're talking to a person rather than a business. That may suit or it may not.

[jamieduff1981]

Re: Help Choose Design

One tip, try not to think of the totality of the project. You're not building a boat, you're mostly just doing a ton of small, easily accomplished jobs. It really is just marking, cutting, and gluing.

This was advice I had quite a long time ago for a non-boat project and it does serve well. It's good to have a good idea what everything is supposed to look like, at least a few steps ahead, but really approaching it one task at a time in terms of how to liquidate the work is a good one. I've now reached the point where there are still a good number of things to do but even assembling the totality of what's left doesn't seem much.

I've got several hobbies, run a side business as well as a sometimes stressful day job with decisions and time constraints and lots of change to adapt to, am a father and frankly sometimes just don't feel like doing anything so I've spread it out over a longer time than necessary. People try to show an interest but not so many people actually make anything so to show interest they typically ask "So when will it be finished?" rather than attempt to discuss an aspect of the process of making it which makey-types usually prefer to talk about. I've always declined to suggest a timescale knowing how I tend to leave things for 6 months at a time. Now though? Now I can see the remaining small tasks rapidly diminishing.

[stromborg]

Re: Help Choose Design


This is my Flapjack Skiff, a Steve Redmond design. 14' LOA with a spritsail rig. It is pretty comfortable with two aboard, here she is in "row out to set crab pots" mode. You can see how fast space gets taken up. Worth considering in your search. This links to my build thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ck-build/page5

[Woxbox]

Re: Help Choose Design

Icenine -- That's a lot of good questions you asked in post #17 above.

Getting good wood is one of the most frustrating parts of building a boat these days. If we combine that issue with the need to have detailed instructions and a design that's easy to build and not too long or heavy, we're looking at buying a precut kit as the way to go. This costs more than buying a piece at a time, but it saves a surprising amount of time and assures good results.

Personally, I won't put doug fir ply into a boat. I've seen it act up too many times. It can even split fiberglass sheathing when it checks.

If a 17' boat is too long, what is acceptable? The utility and seaworthiness of boats in the 12'-20' range increases measurably with every foot added. There are exceptions, of course, when a hull is unusually wide or deep for its length. Catboats, for example.

I can vouch for Chesapeake Light Craft kits and instructions as being as close to bulletproof a system for beginners as you can get. The instruction manual is a book. But I don't see a boat in their catalog that's exactly what you seem to need. The Jimmy Skiff II is close -- but it's more of a day boat than a camping/cruising boat.

I sailed the Lighthouse Tender Peapod at CLC's Big Little Boat Festival a couple of weeks ago. This is a very attractive boat in both appearance and performance. It feels bigger than the dimensions suggest. I sailed it with a friend, and I could easily see fitting camping gear and supplies for a few days. Not so sure about sleeping onboard. Also, it's a more complicated build and does not lend itself to mounting the outboard. (Although a bracket could be built to use it if it's not too heavy.)

Looking at Clint Chase's kits, the ever-popular Goat Island Skiff might work for you if 16' is not too much. Built as an expedition boat, I think you'd want to add watertight side benches that would double as stowage lockers. I have not seen Clint's build manual, others here have and could fill you in on that. He has a video on his site that goes through the kit process. I can say that Clint is a very detail-oriented guy who leaves nothing to chance. Down a size from the GIS is Clint's Caravelle Skiff. But like the Jimmy Skiff, it's aimed more at daysailing.

Of the Welsford Boats, the Navigator -- possibly his most popular design -- hits all the buttons for your intentions. I don't know why, but this line of Welsford boats - the Navigator and others with similar hull shapes -- sail better than they should, looking at the basic numbers. The Navigator would be much more seaworthy than either of the skiffs mentioned above and could be a keeper boat, not a learner boat. But ... I'm not aware of a source for a CNC kit for this boat, and it is probably more complicated and heavier than what you want to tackle.

So lots to consider. The Peapod maybe the best fit all around of this bunch. If you look at the build photos on the CLC site, you'll find step-by-step photos of the process. If the process doesn't look intimidating to you, maybe it would work. I would ask John Harris, the designer and CLC owner, about the motor mount first. He'll gladly offer advice.

Good luck coming to a conclusion! I've been through this process quite a few times. Sooner or later a light goes on and a decision is made.

[dalekidd]

Re: Help Choose Design

It's always exciting seeing someone go through the process of choosing a design and then building a boat. I'm strictly an amateur, but I have built four boats - 3 stitch and glue and the last lapstrake/epoxy. Three were sail/oar boats and one was a canoe. I had had a lot of experience with home projects (room additions, sheds, decks, etc) so building a boat wasn't terribly daunting. The epoxy/fiberglass thing was new, of course. I would say that all of them have been done with a comparable amount of finish. The earlier builds did give me confidence, but in hindsight, I could have built my last first. I enjoy the building process as well as the sailing. My brief would be very similar to yours minus the outboard. My last build was a Clint Chase Calendar Islands Yawl 16. I'll be single-handing most of the time, taking a grandkid or two occasionally, hopefully my wife for a leisurely row occasionally, and camp cruising occasionally - normally sleeping on the boat. I started small and then went larger (7'6", 11', 15'6"). I wish I had a garage to keep the CIY in, but I do not. I'll keep her under a tarp for now. I like her sleeping platform. I'm in love with her lug yawl rig. My 11' boat had a sprit sail. I found reefing a little tricky. The snotter cleat kind of gets in the way. It is a popular rig for some though. First Mate and the Phoenix were on my short list of possible builds, as was the Scamp. Sailors love their Scamps! I chose the CIY for its lapstrake design (I wanted to build one before my building "career" was over), its relative simplicity, light weight, rig and sleeping platform. The plans are excellent including a building manual and Clint is great to work with. No complaints. I'm not sure if it will take an outboard though. Might have to beef up the transom some. You'd have to talk to Clint about that.

Enjoy the process and keep us posted!

Disciple Ship at the ramp:

IMG_9317.jpg

put to bed (the mast makes a good tent pole for shedding rain):

IMG_8643.jpg

(build thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...in-Chattanooga)

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

One tip, try not to think of the totality of the project. You're not building a boat, you're mostly just doing a ton of small, easily accomplished jobs. It really is just marking, cutting, and gluing.

Sound advice for life in general!

I'm planning to build a Welsford Long Steps towards the end of the year, but only because my needs have changed. I want to go on some bigger trips and carry a passenger or two in more comfort. I think the First Mate is a great boat... check out the building pages on my blog and you can see how everything goes together. All the information is also here, but scattered throughout my build thread.

I'll definitely take a look at your blog and the Long Steps looks like a nice design -- an upscaled SCAMP. When you undertake that build, I hope you'll consider documenting it in detail. I'm finding the builder threads to be not only interesting, but incredibly helpful too.

[icenine]

Re: Help Choose Design

He told me actually that the majority of plans are sold to people and he never hears anything from them ever again. Either that's because it's unnecessary or perhaps more likely people buying them because it's £55 GBP for PDF plans versus $500ish for some e.g. Oughtred plans and people probably buy them before they've really committed to the idea of building a boat and then decide they don't have time or space etc.

My instincts tell me that the majority buying boat plans either never start or never finish. I'm hoping that through this thread, I'll both find a design that suits my needs and can be realistically be completed.