Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

[Don Scott]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Rich, I already have a good collection of detail photographs. However, most of them were provided by a gentleman called Tom (still don't know his surname) but a volunteer in the LIMM. I hope he will give permission for their use as the build progresses. They will help to compare my build with the original and show what my efforts SHOULD have looked like.

I have just spent the last couple of hours ploughing through your 'fan tail' build. All I can say is that I am very impressed with your craftsmanship! I am also intrigued by the power plant you use because I had not heard of it before but, I am well acquainted with the type of R/C prop you are using. I build and fly electric powered model aircraft. I have been pondering the use of an old Yamaha 3.5HP outboard motor which has just come into my possession but not much use in either your boat or mine.

[Rich Jones]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Rich, I already have a good collection of detail photographs, some of which were posted by Jim on my model building thread over on the Design/Plans section. However, most of them were provided by a gentleman called Tom (still don't know his surname) but a volunteer in the LIMM. I hope he will give permission for their use as the build progresses. They will help to compare my build with the original and show what my efforts SHOULD have looked like.

I have just spent the last couple of hours ploughing through your 'fan tail' build. All I can say is that I am very impressed with your craftsmanship! I am also intrigued by the power plant you use because I had not heard of it before but, I am well acquainted with the type of R/C prop you are using. I build and fly electric powered model aircraft. I have been pondering the use of an old Yamaha 3.5HP outboard motor which has just come into my possession but not much use in either your boat or mine.

Thanks for the compliment. The R/C airplane prop gives good results but I'll have to carry a few spares. One whack into a bunch of weeds will probably snap the thing off. Experience will tell me whether to stick with them or find something different. An electric R/C model airplane is on my bucket list of things to do.

[Don Scott]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Rich,

I would be interested in knowing details of the glass fibre and resin you used on the Fantail. I think I have made a big mistake in buying a big roll of 1m wide chopped strand mat. Not only that but I read that glass fibre comes in two types of binder...one for polyester based resin and the other for epoxy. Anyway, I ordered the stuff that is 'powder' bound which can be broken down by the epoxy resin (I use West System) but could not get the glass to lie down. Consequently, I have made a bit of a mess of the centreboard box interior. I ordered the 'powder bound' glass but I feel that I have received the other stuff which has a binder that can only be broken down by polyester resin...something to do with styrene I believe. I would be glad to hear any advice on this subject.

I have done my 3D lofting (not recommended) i.e. lofting in the round by using batons to prove the lines of temporary MDF frames. Next step is to cut out the ribs that would correspond with the hackmatack odd numbered ones in the full size boat (that's about half of the 27 frames). These are made by using the MDF frames as patterns from two thicknesses of 6mm builders ply bonded together with epoxy and screwed to the MDF. The MDF frames are then cut down by a half inch all round so that they don't get accidentally bonded to the ply ribs or the western red cedar strips when being glued in place. When the boat is turned right way up, an additional set of lighter ribs (Ash) will be laid between the ply ones. I will endeavour to post photographs that will better explain my methods (well, I did say that my methods might not be to everyone's taste). This build is more of a one off exercise rather than trying to instil my unconventional ideas.


For those of you who like numbers I have been working out the cost of producing 3/4" x 1/4" coved & beaded strip (Western Red Cedar). I have already explained that I bought 42 planks (lengths of 9, 10 and 11 feet) which were 70mm x 20mm.
Each plank makes 9 strips. I am beading and coving them myself (tedious!) and the game works out at 10p per foot...that's about 8 cents a foot in US dollars. I don't know how good or bad that is compared with ready made stuff.

[Don Scott]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

These are the batons I mentioned above being used to get the lines 'eye sweet' as you say over there on the other side of the pond (I call it 3D lofting!). You can also see the ply ribs affixed to the MDF building frames.
It would have been far easier if I had had a set of plans but, as far as I know, there are none.

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[Slacko]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

I don't use CSM at all so have no experience to draw on, but I saw a test piece in a chandlery that had peel ply put on over the CSM.
It had laid now nice and smooth and looked to need minimal sanding before the next step.
That test piece would have been produced by an expert, but I was impressed with the results nonetheless.

[Rich Jones]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Rich,

I would be interested in knowing details of the glass fibre and resin you used on the Fantail. I think I have made a big mistake in buying a big roll of 1m wide chopped strand mat. Not only that but I read that glass fibre comes in two types of binder...one for polyester based resin and the other for epoxy. Anyway, I ordered the stuff that is 'powder' bound which can be broken down by the epoxy resin (I use West System) but could not get the glass to lie down. Consequently, I have made a bit of a mess of the centreboard box interior. I ordered the 'powder bound' glass but I feel that I have received the other stuff which has a binder that can only be broken down by polyester resin...something to do with styrene I believe. I would be glad to hear any advice on this subject.

I have done my 3D lofting (not recommended) i.e. lofting in the round by using batons to prove the lines of temporary MDF frames. Next step is to cut out the ribs that would correspond with the hackmatack odd numbered ones in the full size boat (that's about half of the 27 frames). These are made by using the MDF frames as patterns from two thicknesses of 6mm builders ply bonded together with epoxy and screwed to the MDF. The MDF frames are then cut down by a half inch all round so that they don't get accidentally bonded to the ply ribs or the western red cedar strips when being glued in place. When the boat is turned right way up, an additional set of lighter ribs (Ash) will be laid between the ply ones. I will endeavour to post photographs that will better explain my methods (well, I did say that my methods might not be to everyone's taste). This build is more of a one off exercise rather than trying to instil my unconventional ideas.


For those of you who like numbers I have been working out the cost of producing 3/4" x 1/4" coved & beaded strip (Western Red Cedar). I have already explained that I bought 42 planks (lengths of 9, 10 and 11 feet) which were 70mm x 20mm.
Each plank makes 9 strips. I am beading and coving them myself (tedious!) and the game works out at 10p per foot...that's about 8 cents a foot in US dollars. I don't know how good or bad that is compared with ready made stuff.

I, and most others who build strip planked hulls, use 6 oz. fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin (I also use WEST resin). That chopped mat is for really big projects or for building a boat totally of fiberglass.
I thought of the bead and cove, but many here on the Forum prefer square stock. The little gaps are easily filled in before glassing. Doing bead and cove certainly gives you an easier hull to fair.
A couple of hints. First, use woodglue (Titebond II) to glue the strips together. Gorilla glue stinks for this application. Epoxy is overkill and is hard to clean up/sand. The glue is only there to hold the boat together until you glass the boat. All your strength comes form the glass and epoxy. Remember to cover all the edges of your molds with packing tape so you don't glue the boat to the mold!

[SBrookman]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Don, great to see you back at it. Your melonseed building thread was a big help while I was building mine. I'll be checking in to see how Lorelei is coming along.

[johnw]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

This looks like a wonderful catboat, and you'll have a distinctive boat to sail when it's done. I look forward to your progress.

[Don Scott]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Rich, John, Steve, Slacko...thanks for posting to this thread and showing the interest. Steve, I had a good look at your build and was enthralled by it all. I didn't know that I had been included in the 'halls of fame' in that list of past Melonseed builders.

Rich, I am pleased that you mentioned the fact that you strip build with wood glue (Titebond II). I had already found in my readings on the subject that it wasn't a good idea to use epoxy because of the difficulties of clean up. I have already started the preliminary strip lay up using an Evostik variant and it does the job well with a very short grab time. I take your advice on the idea of using chopped strand mat which will have to be put to some other use. Of course, the 6oz woven glass will not need to have been impregnated with a binder to keep it together...the weave does that for you. Anyway, it looks like I will have to get my wallet out on this one.


My method of build has loaned itself to a very tidy way of keeping the strip in place whilst it sets. First of all, my build is done with coving uppermost which creates the perfect channel to run a bead of wood glue the length of the strip without it dripping all over the place. I have read in a few cases where it is suggested that the strip should be applied with bead uppermost, for whatever reason...perhaps to limit damage on the otherwise exposed coving edges. Anyway, to tighten the joints between strips as they are applied I have made a series of 2" offcuts from scrap strip. These are lightly hammered down at the frames and then pinned to the frames. I don't suppose for a minute that I have come up with something new here but, the bonus is that you don't have to get a single pin hole in that beautiful Western Red Cedar. I made a bit of a mess of things in this respect when applying the decking to the Melonseed...pin holes everywhere. Also the slim finished ply ribs allow for a small clamp to be applied so as to keep the strips firmly against the ribs.

[Don Scott]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

After fairing all the frames I have started to puzzle out how to construct the centre board housing and the skeg...all held together with screws at the moment until I figure things out how to bind them together permanently. Judging only by the photographs I have been privileged to see (I have nothing else to help), there doesn't seem to be any really solid connection between the stem and the stern. Looks like my 'keel' is going to end up in five sections. The trouble is that I have had to build chunky at the front end because there is no connection between the front centre board top housing and nearest cross beam which might have helped to stop the mast from screwing the bows off the boat in a keen breeze...I hope you can make sense of this group of photos. Things might become clearer as we go on.

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[Peerie Maa]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

After fairing all the frames I have started the puzzle out how to construct the centre board housing and the skeg...all held together with screws at the moment until I figure things out how to bind them together permanently. Judging only by the photographs I have been privileged to see (I have nothing else to help), there doesn't seem to be any really solid connection between the stem and the stern.

The boat that you are copying


has a solid keel carved to form a hollow garboard, onto which the skeg is bolted. You can see the form of it in the body plan.

[Don Scott]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Hello again, Nick. I think we have jumped through this hoop once before when I was building the model to sort a few problems out. Strength and structure didn't matter too much on the model but I need to get it right on the big one if for nothing else but safeties sake. You will see from the photograph below that I have made the keel bomb proof at the front end between the stem and the leading edge of the centre board trunk. That was easy enough as the photographs of the original made pretty clear how things go together in that area. I understand what you say about the clues in the line drawing but I will not be carving a garboard out of solid material...it's a bit late for that anyway. To tie in the sections I propose to build up the area in question with a series of sandwiched ply lengths stretching right from the transom to just forward of the centre board trunk which will then be contoured to fair with the bottom of the boat. You'll just have to wait and see how things develop because apart from the forgoing I am making up a lot of my method on the hoof , so to speak...trust me! I know that I am doing a few things that Gil smith wouldn't approve of but, we'll still get there in the end and I feel sure he will be proud of me. Don't forget that this is just an experimental journey for me where the satisfaction of creating such a beautiful craft, far outweighs the cost of building it.

[Peerie Maa]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

I was discussing a thick keel, creating the form of a hollow garboard, not a thick garboard as was often used on big sailing vessels.

To tie in the sections I propose to build up the area in question with a series of sandwiched ply lengths stretching right from the transom to just forward of the centre board trunk which will then be contoured to fair with the bottom of the boat.

I was thinking along those lines myself, a big wood reinforced epoxy fillet tying the skeg into the strip planked bottom. Need to be careful of the final shaping, but will do the job. Rather than using ply, why not use your planking stock, shaped on the bench before gluing into place?

[Hreoaj]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

Those are some sweet lines Mr. Scott. I look forward to watching your progress.

[johnw]

Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

The difficulty with centerboarders is making sure they don't develop a hinge at the ends of the CB. The centerboard box itself is a stiff box structure.