The outrigger and proa thread

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  • Dan St Gean
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 1138

    #46
    Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Thanks for the ama idea. I put the amas on hold--Gary designed Amu Nui for me which looks like a ton of displacement. A tamanu with straight akas and some higher displacement amas seems like a fun ride. After looking at some of the Seaclipper 16 pictures online, those tri amas need some serious displacement forward. I do like very much how the ama looks like a mini version of the hull.

    Dan

    Comment

    • DGentry
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2007
      • 2222

      #47
      Re: The outrigger and proa thread

      SMARTINSEN
      We went to CLC in Annapolis on Saturday to see them at their open house. They had demonstrations of strip planking kayaks, varnishing, epoxy and fiberglass. They have a 31' proa that they are building in their shop
      Hmmm, when I met CLC's John Harris at the PT Wooden Boat show a couple of years ago, he had just been out on this . . . .
      Last edited by DGentry; 12-17-2010, 07:46 PM.
      Boat plans and kits:
      http://www.GentryCustomBoats.com

      Comment

      • wtarzia
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2007
        • 2104

        #48
        Re: The outrigger and proa thread

        Originally posted by peterchech
        ...As far as slapping, that was def a concern I had wade, especially after reading some old posts by you. It is a pretty heavy ama, my hope is that it will remain in the water most of the time, sort of like a catamaran/outrigger hybrid. ...My concern with doing the V outrigger was that I wouldn't get enough flotation in them without building them way up, ...
        --- If you really intend to sail on the tramp and hold the ama down, then perhaps the slapping will be OK or nonexistent, and your bottoms *are* decently narrow. And I personally have low tolerance for slapping sounds :-) Still, I worry a little.

        A single outrigger is a good boat to experiment with reducing drag to squeeze a little extra performance. I'm not a very competitive person (except when someone is overtaking me :-) but I find it a nice pass-time (between leaning against my mizzen with feet up on the gunwale, talking to the cormorants) to sometimes try to reduce wetted surface on the ama (on the "proa track") by shifting weight and letting the ama's keel sort of skip along the water when conditions are right (I think I show a little of this in one of my 5-minute Youtube videos, the one titled something like "heading back."). It's worth half a knot sometimes and livens things up. And in such instances the ama will definitely slap.

        And there will be those times when brisker conditions are going to lift the ama out against your wishes. The forces and noises and sprays might then become an irritant. But if you added a little angle or rounded off foam and glass to the bottom, much of that goes away. The new 20 ft plywood Jim Brown Seaclipper (?) trimaran took slapping seriously enough to angle the flat bottoms just enough to reduce the noise and perhaps to bite the water a little better too (would that be the case for that boat, some reduced leeway?).

        The good news is that these are your amas, so if slapping ever becomes an issue, you have a doable off-season project to put some shape over the flat bottoms. --Wade

        Comment

        • peterchech
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2010
          • 796

          #49
          Re: The outrigger and proa thread

          That's one of those Harry Proas, isn't it? I've heard good things, and the principal is similar to what I'm aiming for in my little Wa'apa... but really, at that point, on something that large and built for cruising, I think I might go with a catamaran, I'm just not sure how well the theory of proas/outriggers holds up when scaled up...

          Anyone here sailed on one though? You seen it sailing dave, or been on board?
          “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

          Comment

          • dirtsailor
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2006
            • 210

            #50
            Re: The outrigger and proa thread

            I've been looking at this little guy for the last couple years:



            I think It would be good for sailing around the lakes here, an I like some of the features for quick assembly and such.

            Flaquita

            Construction photos
            DirtSailor

            It isn't going to build itself so get busy!

            Comment

            • wtarzia
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2007
              • 2104

              #51
              Re: The outrigger and proa thread

              Originally posted by peterchech
              That's one of those Harry Proas, isn't it? I've heard good things, and the principal is similar to what I'm aiming for in my little Wa'apa... but really, at that point, on something that large and built for cruising, I think I might go with a catamaran, I'm just not sure how well the theory of proas/outriggers holds up when scaled up...
              ---No, that is a classic Russ Brown proa I believe: offset center mainmast, comfy bench seating on akas, lee-pod, and (not visible) and jibs on each end, deployed at the "new bow" after a shunt.

              A harryproa would have the rig in the lee-hull and the windward hull (what would be the ama on a traditional proa) swollen to include all accomodations. This puts maximum weight to windward all the time, which is good for cruising. The harryproa would never have problems coming about, and the overall windage might well be less with accomodation in the deep ww hull and no clunky bridge-deck windage or bridge deck stuff that might intercept a wave from under or over. The lee hull would be just for carrying rig and cutting through water, the ww hull occasionally lifted a bit under press of sail thus some reduced drag (at times) ---- and so I am saying a harryproa vs. a catamaran might need a reasonably complex comparison-anaysis.

              Contact Rob Denney for his views of this -- he is a nice guy and knowledgeable -- or join the Yahoo Harryproa group. The Yahoo Proafile International group discusses harryproas sometimes but usually with a little warmth from a definite minority of the membership. --Wade

              Comment

              • wtarzia
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2007
                • 2104

                #52
                Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                Originally posted by dirtsailor
                I've been looking at this little guy for the last couple years:



                I think It would be good for sailing around the lakes here, an I like some of the features for quick assembly and such.
                --- That is a good little boat, and you can believe his performance information on his website because I have duplicated it with my outrigger often (except for the 14 knots part, which I have hit only once and briefly) which has approximately same dimensions but is much heavier than Flaquita. (And his rudder geometry is less dragy than mine too, with his vertical transom). His overall beam is wider than mine (his ~8 feet and some inches beam, mine is a few inches under 7 feet to get through my garage), and perhaps his vaka is a few inches narrower. I do believe his ama has a better geometry too, with a little more volume in the ends than mine, though it is still a deep-V hull). Anyway, Flaquita gets my vote for a very useful design, could keep you going for years.

                What I do NOT like about that boat stems from my personal preference for having a deep foot well so that I can stand up in safely to stretch or and leap about in panic to avoid a capsize, or sit down comfortably as on a kitchen chair when ama is to lee -- a few hours on a small rocking, pitching proa, and you begin to appreciate that even if your hips and knees are better than mine. As a trade-off, his vaka cockpit is self-draining through the centerboard slot (yes, you must watch that board in shallows: I would never give up my leeboard for that reason). -- Wade

                Comment

                • Dusty Yevsky
                  Senior Member
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 946

                  #53
                  Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                  Originally posted by wtarzia
                  Guys, I am going to make a set of gently curving akas to drop my two amas 5 inches -- what kind if springback, if any at all, should I expect? I will be epoxying four ~ 5/8 thick, 10 foot DF planks into an approximate 2.5 x 2.5" square section.--Wade
                  Cut those 5/8" section in half! It's anyone's guess what the springback would be. If you use 1/4" stock your aka come off almost the exact shape of your form, especially with gentle curves. Put your boat and ama in the water, take some measures and build your form accordingly. No suprises.

                  DF is going to be very heavy in those dimensions. You could probably take an inch out of the width and still be strong enough. DF is plenty stiff.

                  Comment

                  • wtarzia
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 2104

                    #54
                    Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                    Yeah, making curved akas from readily avaliable wood is not looking good. I might be back to lowering the amas on an open frame or well-faired spacer blocks. --Wade

                    Comment

                    • peterchech
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 796

                      #55
                      Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                      Im gonna do a hollow box ama, to save money more than anything, but also to save weight. With my 14" tall ama next to my 19" tall hull, one question though... should the ama waterline be about even with the vaka waterline? Or a little higher, or lower? Should i measure the vaka waterline unloaded or loaded?

                      Also, how much curve can i build into a box ama, if any?
                      “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

                      Comment

                      • Gary Dierking
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2002
                        • 339

                        #56
                        Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                        Originally posted by wtarzia
                        Yeah, making curved akas from readily avaliable wood is not looking good. I might be back to lowering the amas on an open frame or well-faired spacer blocks. --Wade
                        I just posted some photos of the hollow crossbeams that I use for my Wa'apa. Your fir may be stiffer than the Kauri I used but you could have them planed down to 1/2". You've probably saved those long triangular and useless scraps of ply from hull building and they can be used for the side panels.

                        Comment

                        • Gary Dierking
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2002
                          • 339

                          #57
                          Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                          Photos of hollow beam construction: http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.com/

                          Comment

                          • Woxbox
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2006
                            • 9923

                            #58
                            Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                            hat's one of those Harry Proas, isn't it?
                            No, I don't beleive it is. The Harry Proas are unique in that the accommodations are in the windward hull. That boat pictured looks a lot like a Russell Brown design, Jzerro, but I don't know for fact which boat it is.

                            The CLC boat is a bigger development of the Mbuli.

                            -Dave

                            Comment

                            • boat fan
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2005
                              • 2103

                              #59
                              Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                              The boat pictured is indeed Mbuli.





                              This one was built in New Zealand.


                              Comment

                              • boat fan
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2005
                                • 2103

                                #60
                                Re: The outrigger and proa thread

                                Apologies for deletions , I could not get the links to work......

                                Just Google ....Salamba Proa it`s a smaller version of Mbuli , at 18 ft.

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