Herrishoff 12 1/2 Question

[Bob Perkins]

Hi Everyone,

I found an H12 1/2 that I hope to persuade a reluctant owner to part with some day..

It is currently in a cradle and in need of restoration, the owner said he would never sell - but everyone has a price (I hope)

My question is: The hull doesn't have a number plate - Is there any way to tell what the hull number was (or maybe backtrack it?) And then get Cape Cod ship building to make a new plate for it?

Thanks,
Bob

[ 07-09-2004, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Bob Perkins ]

[Hughman]

If it doesn't have the original Herreshoff builders plate, don't buy it. Period.

If you are given such a boat, enjoy it, but it doesn't have a resale value without the plate.

Edit: this applies to pre 1947 boats, built by Herreshoff. CCS might accommodate you for one of their boats. Herreshoff plates are trophies, and occasionally show up on counterfeit replicas.

[ 07-09-2004, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Hughman ]

[Jon Etheredge]

If it doesn't have the original Herreshoff builders plate, don't buy it. Period.

If you are given such a boat, enjoy it, but it doesn't have a resale value without the plate.

I don't think this is correct. I believe that many Herreshoff built boats are missing the builders plate and that the resale value of the well known designs like the 12 1/2 is little different between boats with or without the builders plate. But you might want to talk to a broker like Cannell, Payne, and Paige to verify this.

[JimConlin]

Bob-
To authenticate a Herreshoff 12-1/2, I'd also talk with:
Steve Ballentine in Cataumet, MA has rebuilt many H12's and is well regarded. 508 563 2800

Gordon Goodwin at Cape Cod Shipbuilding. (508) 295-3551

Kurt Hasselbalch at MIT 617-253-5942

Best,
Jim

[Bob Perkins]

Thanks for the info everyone.

I'll go take some pictures and do some research to be sure - then I'll start begging the owner not to let it rot away in a cradle..

Take Care,
Bob

[Art Read]

"If it doesn't have the original Herreshoff builders plate, don't buy it. Period.

If you are given such a boat, enjoy it, but it doesn't have a resale value without the plate."

That seems a bit "harsh" to me. Even it's not a "real" Herreshoff, it has as much "value" as you, or any other potental owner, deem it to have, based purely on its intrinsic beauty and sailing ability. Period. If you only want it for its "pedigree", well, boats ain't a real good financial investment anyway. Even ones with Herreshoff builder's plates.

[Steve Paskey]

Lots of Herreschoff boats don't have the original plate. Enough that Bristol Bronze in Tiverton, RI, sells "exact duplicates" of the Herreshoff builder's plates without hull numbers, intended to use on "meticulous restorations of authentic Herreschoff yachts."

There are three versions. Their part no. is as follows:

HM0062 Early (before 1925)
HM0060 Middle (1925 to 1932)
HM0066 Late (1932 to 1939)

Prices in 2002 were $30 for the first two, $40 for the late version. See www.bristolbronze.com or call 401-625-5224.

[ 07-12-2004, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Meerkat]

The Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle has restored at least one H 12-1/2 and maybe 2 of them. I was quite amazed at how thin the planks where!

[ 07-12-2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Steve Paskey]

Incidentally, the Guide to the Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection at MIT includes a reproduction of the Herreshoff construction record. The date and hull no. of the boats are listed, and for most sailing boats the name of the purchaser is also recorded.

It's not a perfect list: some names are missing, and there are multiple boats under some names. Still, if you can identify the original owner, you may be able to pin down the date and hull number.

[Hughman]

Originally posted by Art Read:
[QBThat seems a bit "harsh" to me.[/QB]

Well, I was a bit harsh, as I intended to make a point. Of course boats will sail as well without the plate as with it. However, 12 1/2's fall into a curious category of artifacts that fetch more used than new, depending on condition. If you are going to spent northwards of $15K for one of these, you are also buying a story or a provenence as well as a boat. And you will pass it on to the next owner. For that kind of money, you don't want one that has been cannibalized for souvenirs.



This is 70 odd years old, and it's a little like Lincolns' axe. (head replaced 3 times, handle 5 times...) The entire class is regarded this way- It's more than just a boat. It's a different experience working on one.

I watched a 12 1/2 rot away because it had no plate- no one would buy it and restore it without that plate, and the owner wouldn't take what was being offered for what was essentially a wreck.

Bob should cast a hard eye on the restoration project, and not pay very much for it, because it will cost plenty in sweat equity!

[Bob Perkins]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks again for the input. I hope to get near the boat this weekend and get some pics.

This particular one is not a total wreck, but I think it would leak A LOT if it was put in the water.

I was up there it this past weekend, but forgot the camera.

Here are some of the details:
It could use a few planks I would think.
Butt blocks have been used during construction.
It has some sister frames.
The bow deck area has exposed edge plywood (not sure why this is..
The mast/rigging is not with the boat, so I don't know what that is.
The planking appears to be cedar
The transom is mohogany.
The existing hardware looks kinda ratty (maybe not original?) - The mast hoop is bronze..
All of the flooring grates seem to be in tact.


This particular boat needs a full blown restoration if you wanted it to look good. It could be made sailable I suppose (which is what the owner said he would be doing last year) with a few days work.

My intention would not be to pay a fortune for it ($10K is not in the plan).
As for restoration hours - I have no problem with long projects -

I'll post some pics for your collective advice once I have them.

Of course - this could all be moot if the owner cannot be convinced to sell it..

Thanks again,
Bob

[Pete Dorr]

Bob

If you pass on the project let me know. I don't need a project right now but if the price was right I might be able to snag it.

Pete

[SNagy]

Bob: I have been doing a lot of Herreshoff 12 1/2 research over the past two years, working with the Herreshoff Museum, several builders, CCSB, MIT, and conversations with quite a few owners. I have recorded the whereabouts of about 180 boats and am documenting the evolution of the construction characteristics. The information you have supplied indicates to me that it is indeed a Herreshoff-built 12 1/2, dating from between mid-1936 and 1943. The hull number would have been between 1366 and 1518, and would have been on the large-oval plate style mounted mid-line on the transom.

The fact that it uses cedar planking rules out Quincy Adams as the builder, and the fact that it uses butt blocks rules out Cape Cod Shipbuilding. HMC shifted to mahogany transom and trim after mid-1936. Sometime in the early 1930's they shifted from cedar-planked decking and bulkheads to plywood. It must be that the trim work on this boat has been removed to expose the plywood edge.

If you could be so kind as to drop me an email with the name of the boat, it's location, and the owner's name and contact information, I woud be much obliged. I'd like to add it to the registry I am compiling.

BTW, if any other forumites know of H12 1/2's, I would live to hear from you with this information and the hull number if you have it. The ultimate goal is to identify the whereabouts of all 364 .... we are only halfway there.

Thanks.

[Garrett Lowell]

There's an original in Annapolis, not too far from here. It's been listed in the WoodenBoat classifieds for the last 2 or 3 issues. Next time I'm in Annapolis, I'll walk up and take a look. It's on the hard, up on stilts. Where is the builder's plaque typically located on these? In the cockpit, I'm guessing.

[Bob Perkins]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the information - I'll get more to you.

However - there is a perfect 12 1/2 in Salem Harbor in the mooring field (My plastic boat is there).

Do you have it on your list (it would be the only one at Hawthorne cove marina). I'll try to get the name and hull# of it. I do not know the owner, but I could get his name I think.

Garrett: I'll look through the back issue - I'm looking for a project H12 1/2 - Can't justify getting a completed one..

Thanks,
Bob

[ 07-14-2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Bob Perkins ]

[Garrett Lowell]

Bob, that one listed in WB is no project boat. They're asking 24k, I believe, and it's in quite good condition, according to the ad and from what I've seen as I walk past it.

[SNagy]

Garrett: If your referring to the boat I think you are, she is hull #1502, currently named WASP. She was restored in 2002(I think) by Rick Prose. Her owner lives in Annapolis, and had been sailing her in East Boothbay. She is one of seven Fisher's Island models: after deck flush with sheer, tiller over the transom, wider sidedecks, mahogany trim, and copper flotation tanks. She would have been trimmed in mahogany with a large oval builder's plate mounted centerline on the transom. Her prior owner, Mike Pesare, is a former employee of the Herreshoff Museum and a 12 1/2 expert. He did the initial restoration work in the late 1980's, and named her LEE LEE.

If the boat you know of is not WASP, anything you can gather about it would be great.

Thanks.

-Steve

[Garrett Lowell]

Nope, WASP is the one to which I was referring. If only I had a spare 24k.

[SNagy]

Bob: The only boat I know of in Salem is a Quincy Adams version. It would have mahogay planking and trim, an over-the-transom tiller, and a slight reverse sheer in the forward deck area. It would have a hull number in the low 2000's, on a large oval HMC builder's plate mounted centerline on the transom. I believe the owner's name is Keith Colleran. I know of about 6 12 1/2's currently for sale (my own included), and nothing is less than $20K. Even project boats command a pretty steep price.

[SNagy]

Bob: If I recall, several months ago McClave, Philbrick, and Giblin in Mystic, CT were advertising a derelict Quincy Adams hull for sale for a lower price. I don't know if they still have it ... I imagine what they really want is to sell it as part of a full resotration package.

[nedL]

SNagy, - There was a sad looking 12 1/2 sitting out in a field up here in Woodstock CT for about 6-8 years. I talked to the owner about it a couple of times, he said his brother lived over by the cape & was going to 'restore' it. It disappeared a couple of years ago. I'll see if I can stop & ask about its whereabouts etc. and pass the info on.

[SNagy]

Ned: Thanks for the help. I'll be pleased to hear what you turn up.

-Steve