Vessel right of way?

[Bill R]

Since I am too lazy to go look it up...

On an inland waterway, which would have the right of way? A vessel under sail, no auxiliary power or a powerboat towing a skier? At first thought I would have thought the sailboat, but would the skier in tow qualify the powerboat as having restricted maneuverability?

Just wondering. The real world solution was simple- stay as far away from the ski boat as possible...

[Captain Intrepid]

A waterskier does not significantly restrict a vessel's maneuverability, IMHO. I'm also not sure if a waterskier counts as a "tow."

[Larks]

A vessel under sail.

[Ian McColgin]

You really should not be too lazy to look up Rule 18 (a)(iv) and see that this is a straightforward application.

[paladin]

Displacement conquers all.....never argue with it.

[RFNK]

In Oz anyway the boat with the skier has to stay so far away from everything - the onus is on them. Right of way only becomes an issue when ski boat confronts ski boat. Rick

[Captain Intrepid]

You really should not be too lazy to look up Rule 18 (a)(iv) and see that this is a straightforward application.

I think that the confusion comes in with the question of wether or not towing a waterskier causes a restriction in maneuverability. I say it don't.

[Bob Triggs]

Aother example being that Seaplanes are at the bottom of the "pecking order" when it comes to right-of-way on the water. But just try getting in front of one -on take off or landing power- in your little jet boat on a river!!

(I agree with Ian and the NAVRULES)

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but here's another good one, I'm sailing dead downwind, wing and wing, with the low sun in my eyes. At the last minute I see three or four kayaks sitting across the river, blocking about 60 feet of way, 100 feet in front of me. They're just sitting there BS'ing. I don't have a lot of maneuvering room but still they don't move. Whose responsibility is it to give way? I'll tell you what happened after you all tell me what should have happened.

[John Boone]

Bill R,

Here's a helpful link to the Nav rules online. Makes review quick and easy.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm

Regards, John

[John Boone]

Evening Rick,

What limited your ability to maneuver in this case?

John

[Larks]

Also consider that a vessel that is restricted in its ability to manoeuvre should be displaying day signals or lights accordingly.

[Bill R]

Thanks all. I have both a hard copy and the rules bookmarked on my computer. Also, I am familiar with Rule 18- I stayed awake in class.

Captain Intrepid hit the crux of the question- would towing a skier qualify as a restriction in maneuverability. My interpretation was also that it does not.

However, I also understand the laws of physics, Paladin's above mentioned rule of displacement, and understand the combination of too much horsepower and too little common sense. Like I said above, I stayed well clear.

[donald branscom]

Right of way?

I just try to keep away from power boaters period.
But in any case the Coast Guard would always ask, "What evasive action did you take?" Regardless of right of way.

[Ian McColgin]

A general thought about taking evasive action: Unpredictable evasive action can cause collisions. Any evasive action by the stand-on vessel should be preceeded by the correct sound signal. Especially ski boats where the helm's attention may be a bit divided may make assumptions about what another boat is doing and may not observe a change in course.

Good question about the kayakers. I have faced that when Granuaile's engin was down coming in a channel barely 75 wide in a boat 55 feet long, so there was not a way to even slow down. I made a lot of noise, midshipped the headsail to take off some sail area and thus some speed, and aimed to squeeze my starboard side of the channel. They moved, barely enough.

[ishmael]

The vessel under sail, even if it has auxiliary power, so long as it isn't running. As soon as you start that motor you are a motor vessel.

But, a couple of things as said above. As a matter of custom, not law, you stay out of the way of large motor vessels -- freighters and such. They don't maneuver easily, and you give them the right of way in close encounters. And, a lot of people running smaller motor vessels have no idea of right away rules between motor vessels. Ohh, cool, I've got a key to a high powered outboard motor boat. Rules, what rules?

I learned that the standing on vessel, if approaching from the starboard bow to a few degrees abaft the beam has the right of way. You altered course, as the burdened vessel, if you got close. I don't think the rules have changed since I learned them.

Do all you can to avoid a collision.

Chapman's has some good summaries. Study them.

[banjoman]

I'll tell you what happened after you all tell me what should have happened.

I can't state the rule but the kayakers should have gotten out of the way.....

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
I agree. Boats under oar -- or paddle -- are 'power' boats, and so should give way.

I assume these didn't?

Mike

[Hwyl]

A good waterskier has a high degree of autonomy, and she should be considered a different vessel. For instance if you were in a basic meeting situation with both boats under power, and the water ski tow boat and you both moved correctly to starboard, but the water skier swung to port because she wanted to reclaim the bikini top she'd left on your boat at the last pass. What would you do?

[seanz]

Take pictures?

[Chris Coose]

How about coming at it this way as well.
The operator of the ski vessel is causing a condition to place life at risk. He is the give way.

[Chris Coose]

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but here's another good one, I'm sailing dead downwind, wing and wing, with the low sun in my eyes. At the last minute I see three or four kayaks sitting across the river, blocking about 60 feet of way, 100 feet in front of me. They're just sitting there BS'ing. I don't have a lot of maneuvering room but still they don't move. Whose responsibility is it to give way? I'll tell you what happened after you all tell me what should have happened.

5 short blasts on the horn. (Of course they don't have a clue what that means) then manuver to avoid collision.

An old plumber friend used to ask on occasion, "Chris, How's that gonna look in the write-up?"
A clinical supervisor used to ask, "How's that going to work out on the stand?"
The coast guard will ask, "What did you do to avoid collision?"

[JamesCaird]

Hi guys-I jump in here with some trepidation. The rules are (mostly) clear.
Sit. #1: Sailing vessel vs. Ski Tow vessel=Sailing vessel has right of way. Whether or not a skier is a tow is beside the point. Unless otherwise indicated a Towing vessel and Tow are not automatically RAM (Restricted in Ability to Maneuver). However, knowing that, the common sense unwritten Rule of Gross Tonnage might prevail.
Sit. #2: Seaplanes-are at bottom of the pecking order because (they had no advocates?) or they are considered to be free to move in 3 dimensions. In practice, however, things can get touchy for Seaplane pilots as viz. in water mode is often very restricted plus there are usually no brakes or reverse and at slow taxi maneuverability can get touchy with wind.
Sit. #3: Wing and wing Sailboat vs. stopped kayakers=kayaks are not motor boats as they are not propelled by machinery. But by their light requirements they are considered like sailboats. Otherwise the situation falls into the Category of "Normal Practice of Seaman" meaning, in my book, that they should have been aware enough to get out of the way of the wing and wing sailboat sailing upsun. However, at the same-if you could not see the kayaks because of the sun in yr eyes then you were sailing too fast for the situation ("Safe Speed") and you might have to add in "Proper Lookout"?????
Sit. #4: StandOn vessel-Important that the "stand on" vessel does just that. By not doing so the "Burdened" vessel has a difficult time figuring out what the "Stand On " vessel is doing. Stand on Vessel must not alter course or speed until in "extremis" wherein action of Burdened (Give Way) vessel alone...... etc, etc, etc. You get the point.
Always fun to read through the ColRegs! Cheers/JC

[George Roberts]

"I see three or four kayaks sitting across the river, blocking about 60 feet of way, 100 feet in front of me. They're just sitting there BS'ing. I don't have a lot of maneuvering room but still they don't move. Whose responsibility is it to give way?"

Rule 6 seems to require safe speed for any vessel underway. It appears it was your obligation to avoid the kayaks.

[Ian McColgin]

Rule 3
(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery;

A machine is a machine whether powered by steam, electricity, internal compustion gasoline or diesel or CNG, or human powered. There are plenty of human powered vessels where the machine is a gearing and propeller, but oars and paddles are first class levers, the simplest of machines. This is why human-powered vessels are not seperatly listed, they are power-driven in the meaning of the rule.

A kayak, canoe or rowboat is a (human) power-driven vessel. A kayak crossing (Rule 15) an outboard such that the kayak is approaching from nearly on the outboard's port bow on to 2 points abaft the OB's port beam is the "give-way" vessel.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Rule 6 seems to require safe speed for any vessel underway. It appears it was your obligation to avoid the kayaks.

And I did.

I had a seawall about 40 feet to starboard, another sailboat off my port quarter at about 30 yards, and a downbound freighter just on the other side of him at 100 yards. It's the entrance to the Detroit River at Windmill Pointe on Lake St. Clair. The current was with me and the wind was about 10 mph.

The feeling they gave me was that they were not going to move an inch, nary a paddle lifted. We all have to attempt to avoid a collision, don't we?

[Canoez]

Rule 3
(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery;

A machine is a machine whether powered by steam, electricity, internal compustion gasoline or diesel or CNG, or human powered. There are plenty of human powered vessels where the machine is a gearing and propeller, but oars and paddles are first class levers, the simplest of machines. This is why human-powered vessels are not seperatly listed, they are power-driven in the meaning of the rule.

A kayak, canoe or rowboat is a (human) power-driven vessel. A kayak crossing (Rule 15) an outboard such that the kayak is approaching from nearly on the outboard's port bow on to 2 points abaft the OB's port beam is the "give-way" vessel.

For whatever reason, the CG appears to side-step the issue:

13. Where do Kayaks and Canoes fit into the Navigation Rules? Neither the International nor Inland Navigation Rules address "kayaks" or "canoes" per se, except in regards to "vessels under oars" in Rule 25 regarding lights. One could infer that a "vessel under oars" should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one, but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2).

[Ian McColgin]

Small sail and oar powered boats are not the only that might show a white all-round, at least under international rules:

Rule 24 (c) (ii) a power-driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may, in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a of the Rule, exhibit an all-round white light and shall, if practical, also exhibit sidelights;

The light rules do not imply anything in particular regarding collision avoidance rules as obviously a row boat crossing a sail boat is not concerned as to which is on the starboard tack. The light rules mention oars (again, as first class levers the simplest of machinery) but not human-powered propeller craft like the ballasted bug or the various dissapearing prop kayaks or that other machine, the flexable waggle fin.

In practical terms, a power boat that runs down a rowboat from the rowboat's starboard side is not going to escape responsibility under Rule 15 unless it can be shown that the row boat, perhaps a very determined single-scull, never looked ahead or aside despite a warning horn but that's part of the point, the rowboat does have responsibilities and the only way they fit is under power-driven.

G'luck

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

The feeling they gave me was that they were not going to move an inch, nary a paddle lifted. We all have to attempt to avoid a collision, don't we?

So you did the right thing Rich, and for that reason. You had right-of-way but also a responsibility to avert a collision, which you did.

Reminds me of the old, possibly apocryphal, epitaph --

Here lies the body of Michael O’Day,
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he’s just as dead as if he’d been wrong.

Mike

[George Roberts]

And I did.

I had a seawall about 40 feet to starboard, another sailboat off my port quarter at about 30 yards, and a downbound freighter just on the other side of him at 100 yards. It's the entrance to the Detroit River at Windmill Pointe on Lake St. Clair. The current was with me and the wind was about 10 mph.

The feeling they gave me was that they were not going to move an inch, nary a paddle lifted. We all have to attempt to avoid a collision, don't we?

(As an aside. You put yourself in the position you found yourself in. Often times the smart way is to not put one's self in a position that might cause a problem.)

While we all have to avoid a collision if we can, as I recall there is no right of way just a requirement to yield.

There was no accident. Don't worry.

[Canoez]

A lever may be a simple machine, but it doesn't say explicitly in the CG definitions that such a device would make a boat "powered". The only thing that the CG is specifying for canoes and kayaks is the application of Rule 2 and lighting specs for oar-driven craft. Nothing else is specifically addressed other than that common sense application of the rules should be considered. A note on the USCG Aux site seems to indicate that they believe manually propelled craft to be "restricted in maneuverability".

Ian, I would differ from you in regard to your definition of powered craft. You can have all the oars or paddles in a boat that you wish, but without the person, the boat goes nowhere, so I wouldn't say that a canoe, kayak or rowboat is "powered" by the oars or paddles. As a lever, they are an enhancer of the human on board, but the boat is manually powered - by paddler or rower. The CG don't classify human or manually powered craft as either fish or fowl.

In Massachusetts, there is a further distinction in the rules regarding motorboats, manually propelled boats and sailboats that the CG just seems to be avoiding that would be common-sense, to me.

Certainly, in a canoe or kayak, you should be courteous on the water and adhere to Rule 2. As Chuck notes above, the tonnage rules apply - particularly for paddlers. You need to watch out for yourself as every other boat on the water bigger than you are is a threat to your safety, and in a canoe, kayak or small rowboat, that's darned near everyone.

However, just because I don't deviate from where I'm paddling or floating in my canoe or kayak doesn't mean that you will have steerage way in the 2-3" of water my boat floats on.

[Ian McColgin]

It’s good to have these discussions as they drive me to research ways in which I might be if not wrong at least not right. While I think my view of “machinery” makes sense, at least in part because it covers all human powered craft including rowboats and prop or waggle-fin craft as well as the below mentioned kayaks and canoes, we see USCG explaining themselves thusly:

13. Where do Kayaks and Canoes fit into the Navigation Rules? Neither the International nor Inland Navigation Rules address "kayaks" or "canoes" per se, except in regards to "vessels under oars" in Rule 25 regarding lights. One could infer that a "vessel under oars" should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one, but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2).
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navru...faq.htm#0.3_12

Regardless of theories: Given agility, small size and difficulty to spot when rowing or paddling, I give way to pretty much everybody.

[Captain Intrepid]

Reminds me of the old, possibly apocryphal, epitaph --

Here lies the body of Michael O’Day,
Who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he’s just as dead as if he’d been wrong.

Mike

If we want to take that seriously though, according to the ColRegs, Mr O'Day wasn't right. He contradicted a couple rules, rule 17 a(ii) and b, and rule 2.

[Ted K]

When in doubt, the more maneuverable vessel gets out of the way.

When I am rowing, I always assume that sailboats have the right of way because the human-powered boat can move in any direction while sailboats are limited by wind.

In addition, in my usual waters, the human powered boats are also faster and able to go into much thinner water.

The kayaks should have moved, but the wing-and-wing sailboat may have been going too fast for conditions.

[Dan McCosh]

And I did.

I had a seawall about 40 feet to starboard, another sailboat off my port quarter at about 30 yards, and a downbound freighter just on the other side of him at 100 yards. It's the entrance to the Detroit River at Windmill Pointe on Lake St. Clair. The current was with me and the wind was about 10 mph.

The feeling they gave me was that they were not going to move an inch, nary a paddle lifted. We all have to attempt to avoid a collision, don't we?

Might note that the Detroit River in that area is a restricted waterway, and you have no rights due to being under sail, as well as no rights over freighter traffic.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Might note that the Detroit River in that area is a restricted waterway, and you have no rights due to being under sail, as well as no rights over freighter traffic.

I was hoping to hear from you on this, Dan. (btw, anyone that thinks they have a right of way over freighter traffic is going swimming) You know that area as I do, and the comment from George about me getting myself into that position was true from the standpoint of wanting to get home, seeing the downbound freighter I stayed to the green side of the channel markers, and having a sailboat off the quarter limited my ability to try to port tack back out in front of him until traffic cleared. My timing was just plain bad.

I've seen other posters here with a similar gripe about kayakers not feeling that they, too, are part of the system. A good similarity on land is a person on a bicycle that goes through a four-way stop, forcing traffic to avoid them from every direction. I saw a guy get creamed in Warren last year because he expected 40 mph traffic to slow for him. The lawyers are probably still fighting about it.

Here's another one, not ten minutes later. We're still on wing and wing, by boom to port we're on starboard. Look in the sun on the water. They're on starboard, too, on last tack for the finish to Bayview YC. The camera saw them, but I barely could and didn't make out their direction until right on top of them. Again I gave way by flopping boom over and tacking right across the head of the fleet to clear them all for the finish line. That was exciting. Starboard tack and head to head approach gets a little fuzzy in this situation. Even though I avoided the fleet they weren't very happy with my being there.

[John B]

There isn't anything fuzzy about rights there Rich, they have them.( you did the right thing)

[Ian McColgin]

John B is referring to Rule 12 (a) (ii) as you were the weather vessel. One of so many cases where the International, Inland and Racing rules all agree.

[S B]

Isn't it the obligation of a moving vessel to avoid, all stationary objects, not expect them to get out of your way.

[Hwyl]

There isn't anything fuzzy about rights there Rich, they have them.( you did the right thing)

I agree with John. I'd add that it's your responsibility to keep a look out and it's normal courtesy to stay away from a racing fleet, although it's not a courtesy that is often reciprocated.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

w e a t h e r vessel, that's what I forgot. What I mistakenly saw in the sun was a bunch of boats on port tack, downbound as I was.

I hope I don't look too stupid on this one. That can be a bad stretch of river, with power boats zooming through the 10mph limit. Sometimes they limit my room to maneuver by veering toward me, just to see the old wooden boat.

[Ian McColgin]

SB, please read the rules and take a course. A vessel that happens to be stationary is often underweigh (or underway) within the meaning of these rules and has corrosponding obligations.

[S B]

SB, please read the rules and take a course. A vessel that happens to be stationary is often underweigh (or underway) within the meaning of these rules and has corrosponding obligations.

Rules yes, but the ability to move and the obligation to do so are not the same thing.

[Ian McColgin]

The stand-on vessel has interesting and sometimes seemingly conflicting obligations in that it has a duty to stand-on, to be predictable, and also a duty to avoid collision. Often there are limits as to what the stand-on can actually do. For example, a sail boat heading downwind might slow a bit by dousing a spinnaker but aside from a fast 180 there's not much one can do to slow fast and turning room and the consequences of a gybe if you turn that way are often serious limiting factors. Add in current just for fun.

It comes down to observation and correct interpretation. A group of kayakers may indeed be just chatting and obstructing the channel due to ignorant selfishness. We've all seen that. Or they may, like the kayakers I called in a rescue for on the Fourth, be in trouble.

In general, even though a small boat slowly trolling has no special rights, I try to give people bent on annoying the fish a break. In our area they usually troll upwind so if we're converging the chances are I can't cross their bow. I alter course decisivly to pass astern by enough that their gear is either well below or even beyond me. However, many trollers have unfortunate experiences with sailboats hitting their gear and about half the time they'll just accellerate away a hundred yards or so. Fine.

But when they are very nearly stationary and I see that I can pass ahead safely - remember I have the right-of-way - they still sometimes misread and accelerate to get across my bow, occasionally dangerouly at the last moment.

When tacking in or out our narrow channel, I give a security call on 16 and 13, especially in low visibility, but I also always contact the ferries I see well in advance so they know what I'm up to and what my timing will be. The subtext gist is always, I see you and have a plan if you just maintain what you usually do. After all, I can short-tack in less than half the channel and except for a few hundred yards I can go out of the channel. Worst case, I can hoist the iron jib, though I firmly believe that for most sailboats most of the time the distraction of getting the engin going in a collision immanent situation is not worth a few seconds competant boathandling.

Old-fashioned oral boards would have these elaborate rules questions with the sadistic old captains adding complicating factors seemingly to confuse the candidate but actually reflecting how a situation evolves.

[Tonyr]

Interesting discussion. It happens to be relevant right now in that a commercial publication "Officially approved" (by Transport Canada, the responsible authority) for teaching a course for taking the required boat operators exam (mandatory in September for everyone) says that all manually powered craft have right of way over everything when in internal Canadian waters, but comment that at sea the International rules apply. They don't refer to their legal authority, and I cannot find it.

Another publication actually published by Transport Canada says nothing on the issue.

Presumably the usual right of way rules apply between two manually propelled boats.

My approach to all situations as a slow speed power boater would be to behave as defensively as I can, bearing in mind the duties of the stand on craft. I have also recently upgraded my horn. It makes a nice loud noise.

A general comment on the rules in general is that they do not take into account the comparitivly recent arrrival of huge discrepancies in speed between different power boats, and the difficulty of a slow boat in meeting its theoretical obligations in close quarters. Take a Seadoo doing 50 mph, coming round a turn 100 yards away and having theoretical right of way over me. In the few seconds before he hits, it is physically impossible for me to get out of his way. I am hoping that the "restricted maneuveribility" clause applies. Does it?

Perhaps is does not matter anyway, since if he hits me, he is dead, and I am barely damaged!

Regards, Tony.

[George Roberts]

"Take a Seadoo doing 50 mph, coming round a turn 100 yards away and having theoretical right of way over me. In the few seconds before he hits, it is physically impossible for me to get out of his way. I am hoping that the 'restricted maneuveribility' clause applies. Does it?"

First, there is no right of way. Second, Rule 6 seems to require safe speed for any vessel underway. You do not need any more than Rule 6.

Too many people operate their boats like lawyers. With the view that complying with the regs makes them right.

The correct way is to operate as Tonyr suggests: "My approach to all situations as a slow speed power boater would be to behave as defensively as I can." If a defense fits into the regs, all the better.

[Captain Intrepid]

Too many people operate their boats like lawyers. With the view that complying with the regs makes them right.

Well, properly complying by the regs sometimes means disregarding the rules. It states pretty clearly that if due to special circumstance you have to break a rule if following the rules would cause a collision, you are obligated to do so.

[S B]

Well, properly complying by the regs sometimes means disregarding the rules. It states pretty clearly that if due to special circumstance you have to break a rule if following the rules would cause a collision, you are obligated to do so.

My arguement,better explained.

[Captain Intrepid]

My arguement,better explained.

I knew there was a reason I sat through that dreadfully dry navsafety class.