Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

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  • Paul Pless
    pinko commie tree hugger
    • Oct 2003
    • 124805

    Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

    I was looking at this boat which is just way cool. And, then of course there's the larger boats like Beckman's pictured below.

    I guess my main question is: just how durable are they? Do the larger ones have an outer keel or shoe of some type to protect them from abrasion and impact, either of hitting the bottom or something floating in the water? How would the baidarka hold up to being swept over a gravel sandbar for instance? Is the skin repairable with a patch if need be? What are the practical size limits of these types of boats?

    Just curious...
    Originally posted by DGentry
    Originally posted by Michael Beckman
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 05-29-2009, 01:36 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.
  • Dave Wright
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2002
    • 1152

    #2
    Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

    Those are wonderful boats. Check out the Cape Falcon Kayaks site for some refelections on your questions:

    learn to build greenland kayaks and canoes, recieve sea kayaking instruction, kayak rolling instruction


    He launches all sorts of skin on frame rigs from sandy, high surf beaches.

    You might remember his Sea of Cortez trip detailed in a past Woodenboat:



    I need to finiish up my latest ply effort so that I can start on skin on frame.
    Apple products have always been silly expensive,
    no one told anyone to buy an iPhone, there are plenty fine cheep non apple cell phones.

    Comment

    • Yeadon
      𓆝 𓆟 𓆞 𓆝
      • May 2006
      • 10493

      #3
      Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

      The material they're made out of is pretty tough, and you can always fasten sacrificial rub strips along the bottom.
      Originally posted by James McMullen
      Yeadon is right, of course.

      Comment

      • clancy
        Senior Member #1458
        • Mar 2000
        • 1827

        #4
        Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

        I have a 17' Folbot Greenland II that I bought new in 1990. The boat has been through hell. The frames fall apart before the hull does. I've probably replaced all of the rivets in the frames over the years.
        I see beauty in the mundane, others are blind to what I see ~ clancy

        Comment

        • Canoez
          Did I say that out loud?
          • Sep 2007
          • 20611

          #5
          Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

          They look to be pretty tough from what I've seen on other's boats.

          I'm about to find out for myself as I've just finished a Greenland style stick and am about to launch myself into a pair of Thomas Yost's Sea Tour 15R's. If I get my butt in gear, you might see it on the car at Lefty's, but we'll see.

          I figure it this way - people have paddled animal skin/birchbark/cotton-canvas covered boats for a long time without huge complaints, so I don't know why people make a big deal out of skin-on-frame durability.
          "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
          -William A. Ward

          Comment

          • PaulT
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2003
            • 245

            #6
            Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

            Paul:

            My experience so far is that hitting something floating in the water is likely not a problem. (I have indeed struck a couple floating boards, logs) Closing speed in the water is not that great and you are unlikely to hit something at other than a glancing blow. A 90 degree encounter is very unlikely and even then unless you row or paddle a lot faster than I do I doubt you would see any damage. Probably the most likely puncture would be upon beaching, hitting a submerged and very sharp object firmly planted in the sand/rocks. I have scraped the surface of the cover on mine in an ill advised approach to a cement launch area. The scrape however never leaked. The small, 1/2 inch wide cutwater / outer keel gets scraped from time to time. Takes an hour or so to sand it and re-varnish it for the next hit .
            I am new to these craft, but so far, so good. As has been said here before. They are tougher than you might think. As far as patching goes, Duck tape will get you home, and then cover the hole or cut with a piece of the original covering and stick it with heat-n-bond, or varnish it in place or paint it in place... What ever. Not a big deal.

            Sincerely:
            Paul T

            Comment

            • James McMullen
              老板
              • Apr 2007
              • 12054

              #7
              Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

              Number of Skin boats built:
              2 canoes
              2 Greenland kayaks
              3 Aleut baidarkas
              1 umiak

              Number of holes:
              zero

              With modern fabrics and coatings these things are about as tough as a whitewater raft's hull. A cedar lapstrake hull is more fragile by far.

              Comment

              • Paul Scheuer
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2002
                • 2410

                #8
                Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                I have a Folbot rigid 15' "Sporty" SOF kit that gets more use than any of my other boats. Although I originally worried about its durability, I've desided that it can take more than I can. Lately I've given up my patch kit, which is a tube of "sneaker glue" and some scraps of the hull material.

                The hull is two layers or "naugahide" vinyl coated fabric, similar to car seat material. I've yet to break the gloss. I normally stay away from the concrete ramps but where I launch the "beach"is crushed limestone.

                So I guess the answer to your question is it depends on the skin, and there are lots of choices.

                Comment

                • Canoez
                  Did I say that out loud?
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 20611

                  #9
                  Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                  Paul : try this YouTube posting on for size.
                  "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
                  -William A. Ward

                  Comment

                  • Tom M.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 1025

                    #10
                    Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                    Paul, I just finished a Platt Monfort 11'6" canoe. I've had it out twice so far. I had many of the same questions as you. I have about $250 into it and maybe 50 hours. With such a small investment, I figured I couldn't lose. I got to build a little Wee Lassie, learn how to build a new way, got a neat little boat, and got many of my durability questions answered.

                    Bring along a roll of duct tape for the unlikely event that you'll need a field repair. I feel safe in her.

                    Comment

                    • AJZimm
                      Seasoned
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2122

                      #11
                      Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                      Paul,

                      I built a folding 18' baidarka to George Dyson's design 9 years ago, using 15 oz nylon coated with hypalon rubber household deck paint - 7 coats on the bottom and 5 on the deck (looks a lot like the boat in your picture, minus the graphics). The center of the keel is reinforced with another nylon strip that is glued on and also coated.

                      I've used the boat on a number of 1 or 2 week long trips on various places on Vancouver Island, usually on sandy beaches, and one month-long trip to the Queen Charlottes. So far the center keel rubstrip is a little scuffed at the stern but that's all. I've run into things but the combination of flex in the frame and the rubbery coating means it goes "thunk" and bounces off. I've also inadvertently passed over unseen barnacle covered rocks. The fabric seems to give and move away rather than puncture. No holes so far.
                      Alex

                      “No matter how bad things may seem, you can always make them worse.” - Robert "Hoot" Gibson, Astronaut

                      http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

                      Comment

                      • Cuyahoga Chuck
                        # 7727
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 12984

                        #12
                        Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                        Skin on frame boats have a thousand years of testing on them so they must be fairly well thought out. They can be quite durable.
                        SOF kayaks don't weigh very much so they don't usually hit anything with much force. Smart SOF paddlers stick to blue water venues and dismount while still afloat to keep from abraiding the skin. Because they flex they are able to withstand considerable working forces. One of the choices for the skin is ballistic nylon. It's tough stuff but tends to get baggy when wetted. The other option is a similar weight polyester.
                        Also, those familiar with their construction claim they can build one for $150 or less.
                        Some builders even throw away their tape measure and use the Inuit method of anthropomorphic (using body parts for sizing) measure which tends to scale the kayak to the size of the intended paddler.
                        Frames can be made from scrap lumber scarfed to length. They can be lashed with fishing line.
                        The skin material has to be purchased retail as does the dental floss which is popular for sewing it up. The skin can be painted with common paints or varnishs. Popular choices for a cheap build are porch paint and the returned stuff bigbox stores sell at deep discount.
                        When you get into the big hulls like the item in your picture there are many more engineering considerations so the "make it up as you go along" technique is not advisable.
                        If ya' want more get "Building Skin-On-Frame Boats" by Morse.
                        Last edited by Cuyahoga Chuck; 05-29-2009, 07:28 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Canoez
                          Did I say that out loud?
                          • Sep 2007
                          • 20611

                          #13
                          Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                          Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck
                          If ya' want more get "Building Skin-On-Frame Boats" by Morse.
                          (Robert) Morris, ya mean? Or am I missing a good book for my library?

                          There are also good books by Mark Starr and Chris Cunningham, as well.
                          "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
                          -William A. Ward

                          Comment

                          • Paul Pless
                            pinko commie tree hugger
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 124805

                            #14
                            Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                            Excellent feedback guys.... the various types are certainly intrigueing.

                            I look forward to seeing your boat if possible at lefty's, Canoez.
                            Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

                            Comment

                            • Canoez
                              Did I say that out loud?
                              • Sep 2007
                              • 20611

                              #15
                              Re: Skin on Frame Boats (discussion)

                              The way things are going, I might be lucky to have frame-on-frame!

                              "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
                              -William A. Ward

                              Comment

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