Crocker "Stone Horse"

[oakman]

So I have been interested in this design for a little while now and another forumite who has one, suggested a thread. Good idea!

I am interested to hear from other Stone Horse owners, experiences, likes, dislikes, etc. . .

Thanks all

Oakman

[kenjamin]

I don't own one but I like them too!







I imagine James McMullen will be along soon to give you his two cents on what it's like to own one.

[oakman]

He's the gent who suggested I post in the design section. See thread about his lovely new dink in building and repair.

Saw the Eddy and Duff version in our yard. I understand their layout is a little different from the original, but not sure where.

[Uncle Duke]

Some folks like raised decks if they're done right, and I think Sam Crocker was one of the few who got them 'right'.

On the Stone Horse: years ago on Long Island Sound I was sailing a Pearson Ensign with a friend. The Ensign was tricked out (as much as an Ensign can be) for "go-fast" and we were young and enthusiastic. We were headed across the Sound (from Oyster Bay?) in a moderate wind, when we say this old-looking little boat behind us. Cute, but "old".
We admired it, snickered and noted that we'd probably not see much more of it.
Two hours later we were half-heartedly waving to the solo skipper of that Stone Horse as he passed us, lounging in his cockpit while we attempted to not look as if we were wringing out every knot that we could.
Very impressive, and I've liked them ever since...

[Uncle Duke]

On a related note: Chuck Paine (sadly retired now) did a lovely design for a Stone Horse owner who wanted the same boat but larger: what he called the "BrownHorse" (owner Garrett Brown):

http://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/31TANGIER31.pdf

On a more un-related note, I'm also fond of his (kind-of)raised-deck cutter: Gusto
http://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/44GUSTO44.pdf

[oakman]

Very nice, the Chuckpaine's are interesting. I am from the South shore of LI, gotta be careful down there even with 2' of keel. I do like the Sound sailing as well. I've done the length a couple times for deliveries.

The raised deck is not my first choice, but having seen the Stone Horse up close it is growing on me.

What would you do if you found yourself in need of frame replacement. My research tells me the design has ceiling all over. If it was screwed you could just remove the screws. Nailed? ouch

Oakman

[James McMullen]

Well I've only owned my Stone Horse for a short while--taken her out maybe a dozen times so far, but three of those times were multiple-day trips so I have had some time to gather some impressions. I have been out in some frightfully strong conditions too, so I've had a chance to put see how she sails with lots of reefs tucked in. . . . gusts of 35-40 knots once, jeepers!

First of all, the raised deck. I didn't like the looks of it so very much at first myself. . .from the outside that is. From the inside, there's absolutely nothing not to love. The Stone Horse is Huge on the inside for such a little bitty boat. And the space is laid out very cleverly, perfectly suited for a couple--and a couple of dogs. My favorite part is the little stove--keeps the cabin absolutely toasty even when it's pouring out.


The raised deck gives you the entire width of the boat worth of headroom. And the way it transitions aft to the cockpit is graceful indeed. I think I will re-paint her in that two-toned style when I haul her this winter--the two different colors change the appearance of the raised sheer for the better, I think. But with or without the color, I think the quaint, old-fashioned 1930's style is really cute--especially compared to the hideous, blobby, half-melted look of the modern euro-styling.

[James McMullen]

That raised deck put buoyancy right where you want it when you're really hove down. If you're sitting in the right place you can look through the cabin door and watch for fish through the fixed ports when the rail is awash. Katie makes me put a reef in before getting to that point, usually.

Coming to the cockpit, again, it is huge for this size of boat. It extends across the entire beam and there is plenty of lounging space for humans and dogs alike.


The transom is raked such as to provide a perfect backrest to lean against and watch your masthead telltales on downhill courses, and when beating, the cockpit well is set just the right size to brace your feet on when heeled. The cockpit is close enough to the water to make getting in and out of the dinghy with the dogs a tremendously easier task than was the case with our previous high-sided Ericson 23.

This boat self-steers exceptionally well. The previous owner had installed mountings for a Simrad autopilot, but after testing it out to see if it worked, I've never since used it. Just lashing the tiller slightly to windward and then playing with the sheet a little bit will make this boat track like it's on rails. I'm now a firm believer in the value of a full keel vs a fin keel for a cruising boat.

What do I not like? Not very much to tell--mostly just some nit-picks. The yankee jib is a bit of a hassle to tack sometimes at it doesn't have that much room to get around the fores'l. Rolling it up is the first reef, though, so you really don't have to mess with it much once the weather gets fun. It can be hard to really see and check the set of both foresails unless you drop down to the lee rail to look under the main. I think I would like to add a sheet horse traveler for the fores'l as I don't love the set of the boomed fores'l when the sheet is eased with the current all-rope sheeting set-up. I'd like to get the outboard off the transom and go back to an inboard diesel perhaps some day too.

The plusses vastly outweigh the minuses so far, though. She's much better than I had hoped and a dramatic improvement in comfort and handling over my old, twitchy cruiser-racer sloop. She's deceptively fast, too, as Uncle Duke mentioned, specially when the wind and the waves heat up a little bit.

Here we are, headed out across Rosario Strait three weekends ago:


So far I've found the Stone Horse Sloop to be an excellent pocket cruiser, a great big small boat. It really is surprising to me that there aren't more like her, though I suppose that the top-shelf price that Edey & Duff charged for them when they were new was a bit of a damper. Still, I think that she would make a fine project for a home builder who wanted to tackle a maxi-trailerable cruising boat. I'd think a cold-molded or strip planked version would be just as fine an option as the original carvel construction if you needed to keep it stored on a trailer half the year.

[oakman]

James I think you mentioned that that stove is the Tiny Tot. Who makes that and are they still available?

Googling now. . .

Found it, on another thread

http://www.fatscostoves.com/

oakman

[stevedwyer]

I've been a fan of S.S. Crocker's boats for some time.
I sailed on a friend's Stonehorse a few times out of West Beach in Beverly. Really, a nice boat for it's size. Sam's cruising designs always seem to have a great deal of volume for their length.

There's a 20ft Sally Rover under construction ...http://www.reddspondboatworks.com/rpb_salleerover.html
Up close, it's a very large 20 footer!

And there's a 37ft cruiser for sale on yacht world, but it sounds like you'd have to drop the ballast keel to do the necessary structural repairs. Still, I'd wonder what a new build would cost?
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=74503&url=

[rbgarr]

There are the Stonehorse Jr. and Stonehorse Sr. (33') designs. Crocker's Boatyard probably has the plans for the alternate daysailing, trunk and semi-flush deck designs and the different sailplan options for the Jr. AFAIK it's design #159 and I imagine they may be able to send study plans. http://www.crockersboatyard.com/
Those variations can also be seen in the book Sam Crocker's Boats. The boats were designed for the Stonehorse Yacht Club, named for Stonehorse Shoal at the eastern end of Nantucket Sound.

[Robert Meyer]

Boat Design Quarterly #20 Has an interesting review of the Stone Horse compared with Bolger's Stone Camel design. Phil Bolger designed leeboards on the Camel for shallow water performance but I think distracted from the boat. Also missing on the Camel was the Peter Duff designed "sumptuous seat". I gotta love those flush decks.

[James McMullen]

I feed my Tiny Tot with bandsaw cut-off scraps. . .an apparently inexhaustible supply in my shop. It only needs pretty tiny pieces, but once it's started it burns them completely down to ash without fail, every time so far. I love that little stove.

[RFNK]

I think the raised deck looks great on this little boat and the overall package looks very comfortable and seaworthy for inshore sailing.


This is another, slightly larger boat that sailed in this year's Sydney to Hobart race - I think the raised deck looks great on this one too:

[Thad Van Gilder]

My buddy owns the only extended cabin "Bluewater version" ever made. It lives in the North Lagoon in Ocean City, NJ.

Its a great boat... The headroom is rough though!


-Thad

[oakman]

Hey thanks everyone, great information. It's always interesting to hear the stories and opinions of the membership, keep 'em comin'.

Oakman

[Ed Armstrong]

I've also admired the Stone Horse design (and other Crocker designs -- Sally Rover was one of the first that caught my eye when I was thinking about building a boat). Roger Long designed a 21-foot flush decked sloop that reminds me of the Stone Horse (it appealed to me because my maximum slip length is 22 feet):

[rbgarr]

More on Roger Long's 21 footer: http://jeep97.com/ and a 23 footer

I like the shape and sheer more than the Crocker's.

[Rigadog]

Where the wood is bright, does the hull lean in? It's hard to tell from the pics. I like raised deck boats in general, but think they should be called "Raised-hull". I hanker to build an Egret and if I do, it will probably be as a raised-deck. It will add reserve bouyancy and give a bit more volume inside. I've drawn some side views and like the way it looks too. I think I will cant the "cabinsides" in a bit.

[stonehorse148]

Interesting thread. For WoodenBoat forum members who are owners of, or just interested in, the SSC S/H, over a hundred of us are moored here (including E&D and Crocker's B.Y.): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stonehorseknockabout/ (SHK).

Any WoodenBoat member will certainly be considered worthy as a SHK member.

Dave Fisher, Owner, E&D S/H #148
Owner/Co-moderator SHK

[oakman]

Having taken over a year of lurking here before posting I am not sure I am ready for another forum. . .

Could their bilge be worse? nicer? Ohhhh

Thanks all, going once, going twice. . . any other posters?

I like the traveler arrangement on the Longs and would consider converting from the tracks I have seen on the Stone Horses

Oakman

[donald branscom]

Having taken over a year of lurking here before posting I am not sure I am ready for another forum. . .

Could their bilge be worse? nicer? Ohhhh

Thanks all, going once, going twice. . . any other posters?

I like the traveler arrangement on the Longs and would consider converting from the tracks I have seen on the Stone Horses

Oakman

Maybe in another year.
Travelers are good at making noise, and having blocks banging on the deck.

[stonehorse148]

... I think I would like to add a sheet horse traveler for the fores'l as I don't love the set of the boomed fores'l when the sheet is eased with the current all-rope sheeting set-up. ...

Edey & Duff has recently added a horse and traveler to the "company Stone Horse," but there is another simple, inexpensive soulution to the staysail boom's problem (i.e. not traveling far enough outboard to keep the slot open and backwinding the main when hard on the wind, and rising and curling the staysail leach off the wind).

A short pendant inserted between the staysail boomhead and the headblock (the "traveler") will let the sheet (the "horse") lay at a shallower angle to the deck. The headblock will then more freely travel along the sheet/"horse" and the slot will remain open. Off the wind, the sheet works like before except the boomhead is now held down.

I use a pendant made up of 1"x1/8" ss chain and two 1/8", side-opening pear links so its length, thus the slot, is easily adjustable. I find that 9 links is about right. There is no big-buck outlay, no traveler slamming the stops, no block rattling. A $10, 10 minute fix ($17 in 2009).

[Rigadog]

__________________

[rbgarr]

...there is another simple, inexpensive soulution to the staysail boom's problem

A Herreshoff 12 1/2 has a boom on the jib. The one part jib sheet deadends at a fitting on the starboard foredeck, passes through a block on the boom, back down to a symmetrically located fairlead on the port foredeck and aft to a cleat. Would that work on a Stonehorse also?

(This is a Haven, but rigged the same way

[stonehorse148]

Herreshoff 12 1/2s have a boom on their jibs. The one part jib sheet deadends at a fitting on the starboard foredeck, passes through a block (I think) on the boom, back down to a similarly located fitting on the port foredeck and aft to a cleat. Would that work on a Stonehorse also?

That is exactly what the Stone Horse has. In the Stone Horse photo, the port turning block is just aft of the deck-mounted Perko sidelight. Most of the existing "12-1/2s" are "Doughdishes" made by Edey & Duff (sold through Bill Harding), so that would be a similar rig. The pendant could be used to better control the 12-1/2's jib boom too.

[rbgarr]

I saw that but didn't understand the purpose of the pendant. How does the pendant provide better control?

[stonehorse148]

I saw that but didn't understand the purpose of the pendant. How does the pendant provide better control?

With the unaltered rig, and with the headblock not traveling very far outboard, the actual direction of pull on the boomhead is back toward a point about halfway between the starboard standing end and the port turning block. The boomhead can easily rise with moderate sheeting off the wind. As you can see in the Stone Horse photo, the block is now well out along the low sheet, the slot is open, and the direction of pull is downward, almost under the boomhead, keeping the staysail leach straight and tight.

N.B. S/H #148 used to live in your neck of the woods before I bought it (ex-"SANDPIPER," Jerry St. Clair).

[rbgarr]

Thanks. That makes sense. Has the 12 1/2 class experimented with the pendant?

Jerry is a real good guy. He lives across the harbor a quarter mile away. A friend had a Stonehorse in Camden and loved it, but I never sailed aboard her before he sold her.

I did get aboard the Crocker Gull in the Bahamas years ago. So much room for the size boat, espcially compared to the Tahiti ketch I was sailing on at the time, but one was a coastal cruiser and the other wasn't so much.

[Uncle Duke]

Some Stone Horse's have a wishbone boom on the staysail - doesn't that solve the problem? Or does it introduce other problems?

[stonehorse148]

Re: using the pendant on a 12-1/2, dunno. It is easy enough to try. Before putting together my chain-and-link deal I experimented with a small lanyard.

[stonehorse148]

Some Stone Horse's have a wishbone boom on the staysail - doesn't that solve the problem? Or does it introduce other problems?

Yup it does - some people like it, some don't. Definitely more S/Hs have changed from wishbone to boom (including E&D's) than the other way around. That was one of Peter Duff's ideas that had checkered success and acceptance. Kinda like the one-of-a-kind "offshore" S/H - for whatever reason Peter lost interest in it and E&D never finished it (Randy Geary did over 25 years later).

[James McMullen]

Thanks for the tip, sh148. It looks like a promising, simple solution. I think I'd prefer a rope-stropped lizard rather than the clatter of chain links and a block though. I'll try it out with a bit of rope this weekend and see how I like it.

[Uncle Duke]

There are a few Stone Horse videos on YouTube, by the way. This one has the links to others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5BfVjxfjo0

[stonehorse148]

Thanks for the tip, sh148. It looks like a promising, simple solution. I think I'd prefer a rope-stropped lizard rather than the clatter of chain links and a block though. I'll try it out with a bit of rope this weekend and see how I like it.

At the pendant length I use, the chain is always under some tension and doesn't rattle, and the block is always held off the deck, either by the staysail leach length or the staysail boom topping lift. The ground tackle clanking in a seaway makes much more noise. The benefit of the chain pendant is that its length is easily adjustable as conditions change, and so long as an odd number of links are engaged, the block stays in proper orientation to the sheet (athwartships).

[oakman]

All very interesting reading.

Thanks everyone, an enlightening thread. The vids look like she's a fun design to sail.

Oakman

[Stonehorse46]

A good Stone Horse self steering video go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzIEXSd1IyA, from a close reach up she'll steer on her own after a little tweaking of the sails.

Best mid-winter viewing is Starboard Tack, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgV_KAKw_gI

And, most relaxing is at http://forums.cruisingworld.com/vide...f=stonehorse46

[rbgarr]

New Bedford YC?

[Stonehorse46]

NBYC it is.

[oakman]

Ah thank you Stonehorse, I have seen the vids and passed them on to a friend.

VERY NICE PHOTO. . . not to yell.

Good call rbgarr

O

[Stonehorse46]

Edey & Duff 40th Anniversary and annual Builder's Cup

You may want to check-out a recent posting to Scuttlebutt Sailing Forums, Event Reports, <http://forums.cruisingworld.com/vide..._Builder_s_Cup>

and Cruising World, <http://forums.cruisingworld.com/vide..._Builder_s_Cup>

[CundysHarbor]

I had a Stonehorse years ago. After sailing all kinds of boats, larger and smaller, gold platers and rough skiffs, I can say without hesitation that the Stonehorse is the best balanced. In terms of bang for the buck, Crocker designs are all strong contenders.
Dave Woodman

[john l]

i have had one of those love/hate affairs with this design too. i have seen
a more traditional house on a stone horse that looks excellent. this no doubt
compromises the cabin space. looking at the fotos on this thread there appears
to be a variety of cockpit seat depths which yield a variety of hgt for the seat to coaming top. it seems to me that most examples could use a bit more backrest
for comfortable sailing. i saw people using cushions position in a way that do this. it got me thinking about the coaming lines. the dipped coaming is nice looking but it may be responsible for accentuating the bulky looking cabin/deck
which is what some people find visually objectionable. So if that coaming went straight from deck area transom there would be a few inches more backrest and the front heavy appearance would be minimized. The entire boat
might look too simple so i think the coaming might need some shape adjustment beyond the straight line and it's aft end wold require some deft treatment. i think the result would not only be a more comfortable cockpit but
one which appears a bit larger and may even be a touch drier. I know - whom am i to tinker with crocker. none the less i think a better resolution of this particular design detail could make this design much more appealing. i might have to draw one up!

[James McMullen]

At the angles of heel that my Stone Horse tends to sail, more backrest on the sides would be not only unneccessary, but in the way. You ought to sail one for a few hours before you make the claim that this cockpit is "uncomfortable". Crocker got it right.

[john l]

sorry to tick you off james, but i never said the cockpit was "uncomfortable."
i merely said it might make it "more comfortable." maybe i'm getting older
but i don't like extended sailing on a sunfish. i find a h12 and 1/2 quite nice
partly because on occasion i can lean back even if only my lower back has some support. it's one of the reasons i like my kayak too. as for the stonehorse - i like it and would like to sail one someday.

[James McMullen]

Sorry if I seemed brusque, John. I didn't mean to come across that way.

I'm planning to get in my own Stone Horse tomorrow after work and not come back until Sunday.

[Stonehorse46]

john l ,

Cockpit is very comfortable and it would be hard, probably impossible, to improve on the Crocker esthetic.

Newburgh, NY to South Dartmouth, MA is 210 mi (about 3 hours 49 mins), let me know when you plan to come for a sail on Stone Horse hull #46.

sorry to tick you off james, but i never said the cockpit was "uncomfortable."
i merely said it might make it "more comfortable." maybe i'm getting older
but i don't like extended sailing on a sunfish. i find a h12 and 1/2 quite nice
partly because on occasion i can lean back even if only my lower back has some support. it's one of the reasons i like my kayak too. as for the stonehorse - i like it and would like to sail one someday.

[tprice]

It looks like a Cal 25. A cuter Cal 25 but it's hard to make a raised deck boat not look like a wooden shoe.

[john l]

stonehorse 46 - i'd love to. btw since i commented on this thread
i pulled my crocker book off the shelf and had a look thru. crocker did a number of boats with the raised deck/sheer line starting with his own first boat out of MIT. and a number of them had the same coaming shape that i mentioned.
so maybe my thinking isn't totally out of line with mr crocker.

[Stonehorse46]

Not totally out of line with his thinking, but still difficult, probably impossible to improve on the Stone Horse's lines. I find the dipping coaming visually attractive and very effective at keeping people in, comfortably, and water out. If it does accent the raised deck then all the better for Stone Horse aficionados, the raised deck has a particular appeal in both form and function, just beautiful. Wooden shoe, jeeeeeeezzzzzzz.

Photos courtesy of Spectrum Photo

note the generous coamings...............

stonehorse 46 - i'd love to. btw since i commented on this thread
i pulled my crocker book off the shelf and had a look thru. crocker did a number of boats with the raised deck/sheer line starting with his own first boat out of MIT. and a number of them had the same coaming shape that i mentioned.
so maybe my thinking isn't totally out of line with mr crocker.