A discussion ...."Marie Michon" ?

[PeterSibley]

There has been a brief but interesting discussion here ,
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...=1#post2202010
about the yacht "Marie Michon" .An older type of very heavy displacement designed by Bevil Warrington-Smythe in the late 1920s I believe .She was reputedly a good sailer , comfortable and seaworthy .Here are a few photos from a book by Francis Cooke (courtesy of Dick Wynne ).







I wonder why such designs have been so overwhelmingly displaced by lightweight designs ? It seems that "Michon Marie " would suit many as would the US designed version featured in WB No. 85 in 1988 "Corineus " ,a very slightly smaller version of the same concept .

What does the panel think ?

[PeterSibley]

Here are a couple of photos of the US version , Corineus .I really like her !

[Paul Pless]

Peter, what is it that you find appealing in this design in particular? The phrase 'very heavy displacement' seems to catch me a bit out... Does the lack of deckhouse create any headroom issues that would be easily accomodated otherwise? That's one hell of a bowsprit too, and this coming from someone that finds that type of rig appealing...

[PeterSibley]

A flush deck ,a solid motion ,1900's fishing boat rig on Marie Michon.Probably very close to standing headroom on MM ,5 foot or so in Corineus .

The bowsprit isn't a problem if you run sail out on a ring .

Did I mention a flush deck ! Something like a big 1890s pilot cutter in miniture .

[rufustr]

I really like the look of these boats Peter.

They are great designs.

The flush deck would be good for lots of reasons too.

But heavy traditional construction would be a lot more work and cost these days, and to my way of thinking that would be the limiting factor with one of these boats.

I reckon Gartside has achieved good compromise with his designs.



Are you just discussing these designs, or are you thinking of starting your build again?

[PeterSibley]

I really like the look of these boats Peter.

They are great designs.

The flush deck would be good for lots of reasons too.

But heavy traditional construction would be a lot more work and cost these days, and to my way of thinking that would be the limiting factor with one of these boats.

I reckon Gartside has achieved good compromise with his designs.



Are you just discussing these designs, or are you thinking of starting your build again?

Now theres a question ! I've really liked this kind of design ,ever since I saw the WB article on "Corineus " years ago .Corineus was a design on it's own in many ways , not least that it was isolated from the normal yachting culture .

As you may know .I haven't done anything on my build for 2 1/2 years , since the family upsets .I have a backbone structure that is remarkably similar to MM's .....it would be very easy to change at this point .Thinking,thinking .....

As to expense of traditional heavy wooden construction .Rufus ! No , it's cheap ! Much cheaper than the delicate route .My planking cost me $2000 ,28 foot lengths of spotted gum .Keel $300 .Stem and stern posts ironbark salvage bridge timbers .The little pile of 40mm thick bends for sawn frame stock cost $300 from a post splitter and $1000 to bandsaw through and through .

I have to admit it's very much easier if you don't live in the city .The bush is made of trees .

No epoxy ,no glass ,no Western Red Cedar .

[PeterSibley]

If anyone happens by who could add some wisdom regarding the sailing characteristics of this type of hull and rig ....I would very much like to hear !

[rufustr]

I don't know how similar they are to Oyster Smacks, but does this link help in any way?

http://www.betty-ck145.de/docueng/index.html

[PeterSibley]

Rufus , yes I know that site .Lot's of great stuff !

[PeterSibley]

Rufus ......
frame stock .

[Wiley Baggins]

I wonder why such designs have been so overwhelmingly displaced by lightweight designs ?

What does the panel think?

I think Paul Pless may have hit one of the nails on the head with his comment about the heavy displacement catching him a bit out. That displacement also implies more materials and more cost. The boats do look best flush decked which (re)introduces another point Paul Pless raised - headroom...and light...and ventilation below.

Mind you, I think they are wonderful to look at and there are a couple of beauties (Cockle and Carlotta), one new build and one restoration up in building and repair, as you know. I have a very soft spot for the similarly configured Itchen Ferry type.

Ashley Butler has done some nice work with the type. I'm thinking specifically of his Mayflower Class design - http://www.butlers-wooden-boats.co.u...p?project_id=5.

As to their sailing characteristics, there was much gnashing of teeth over their reported less than desirable qualities on the forum some years back, but most articles I've seen are favorable. I'm sure some of that being the result of writers and editors "never" encountering a boat they don't like because no one wants to read about that. Another factor may be that only the best or most sorted out designs last or are found worth of reproducing. I’ve not sailed the type but I am sure there is both good and bad in their handling as there is in any creation constrained by compromises.

I’m embarrassed to say I just went looking for a drawing of your design and I couldn’t find it. I am approaching (if not 100%) certain you shared the drawings with us previously.

Great topic!

[PeterSibley]

Wiley I have a pdf of the lines which I'll post but I have no idea how ! jpgs via Picturetrail OK ,but pdfs ?

[rufustr]

I realize there is still excellent material available Peter.

I used to get Hardwood house frames from a Sawmiller named Fred Shipman at Glenreagh in Northern NSW years ago.

He eventually proved far too unreliable and although his timber was excellent quality I had to go elsewhere.

Currently I am getting some of the best looking hardwood I have ever seen from a local supplier.

I suspect it's mainly Blackbutt, but I'm not sure.

The ability to build a flush deck design gives plenty of room, but nowhere to hide out of the weather.

[PeterSibley]

I guess the point I was making Rufus is that it's not really expensive , not compared to the exotics .

[PeterSibley]

Wiley .



My current design ,which I am really quite happy with .

[rufustr]

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Rufus , your version is much improved .

[Wiley Baggins]

My current design ,which I am really quite happy with .

She looks a bit like an amalgam of the traditional model and the more yacht-like French pilot boat towards the back of John Leather's book on the gaff rig – which is to say better than either. Off topic (slightly), thanks too for that photo of Jolie Brise in the Carlotta thread. That particular image really allows one to see the sheer of the hull separate from its bulwarks.

[rufustr]

Have you seen this site Peter?

http://www.pilotcutter.co.uk/portfolio.html

[rufustr]

A drawing from the site posted above.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, I have sailed on boats of this type and I do like them.

There is, as they say, no replacement for displacement.

Good points:

1. You can load her full of stuff and it makes no difference.

2. Much less sick-making and much less fatiguing motion at sea. There are generations of yachtsmen who have no experience of this.

3. Superior light weather performance (big sail area in relation to wetted surface

4. You can make her jolly strong, and she is easy to repair.

5. With traditional construction, you can use the more easily available local materials (eg in my case larch planking and grown oak frames - but for a better example see Peter's figures, above, for Australia) which are much, much, cheaper than fancy stuff and epoxy.

6. Regarding the flush deck, personally I like to go down into the cabin and get out of the elements; I am not interested in looking out from below.

7. This sort of boat was built by people who had limited facilities - Marie Michon was built by a firm of fishing boat builders, Gilbert and Pascoe, who were "discovered" by the Warrington-Smyth family because they were extremely cheap - they had not built a yacht before. I recall from somewhere that Marie Michon cost £200 in 1927 which was very cheap indeed - with the salvaged hatch and skylight and with internal fitting out done by the owner. This makes them practical boats for amateurs to build so long as one is in the sort of size where one man can cope with the frame members and strakes of planking.

[downthecreek]

2. Much less sick-making and much less fatiguing motion at sea. There are generations of yachtsmen who have no experience of this.


6. Regarding the flush deck, personally I like to go down into the cabin and get out of the elements; I am not interested in looking out from below.

On the first point - you can say that again! I have very little experience of the mass produced commodity yachts, but a ride up the Wallet, wind over tide, in a friend's Janneau was a revelation in the other direction!

On the second - entirely agree. I shall never forget my first trip in the pilot cutter "Kindly Light" when I was about 15. Only a "ferry" trip from Portsmouth to Cowes, under power and in the dark. The enchantment of that deep, plain, comfortable cabin with it's single oil lamp turned down low and the delightful contrast with the rather black and unforgiving night outside lives with me still.

Our own boat, incidentally, although not of this type, behaves very much like a Hillyard in a seaway. Having sailed both in an 8 tonner and a 14 tonner of that breed (the latter through some of the biggest seas I have ever encountered in a sailing boat) I've been quite struck with the similarities.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Andrew ...just what I wanted to hear !

Now about the hull shape ,very slack bilges (especially when compared to my drawing above ).Which is the more comfortable in a seaway ? Heaves to most easily ?

They are very different concepts .

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Slack bilges = heavy displacement = comfortable in a seaway and easy heaving-to.

This sort of boat will heel a bit right, away, but it is really difficult to get the rail under.

[PeterSibley]

Compared to my drawing Andrew ? Does Mirelle resemble the drawing or MM more closely .....or neither ?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Mirelle is closer to your drawing. her lines are in fact based on those of WA Robinson's Alden ketch "Svaap". You probably have the book.

However, her draft was reduced to 5ft to suit her home waters.

[Paul Pless]

Well, I have sailed on boats of this type and I do like them.

There is, as they say, no replacement for displacement.

Good points:

1. You can load her full of stuff and it makes no difference.

2. Much less sick-making and much less fatiguing motion at sea. There are generations of yachtsmen who have no experience of this.

3. Superior light weather performance (big sail area in relation to wetted surface

4. You can make her jolly strong, and she is easy to repair.

5. With traditional construction, you can use the more easily available local materials (eg in my case larch planking and grown oak frames - but for a better example see Peter's figures, above, for Australia) which are much, much, cheaper than fancy stuff and epoxy.

6. Regarding the flush deck, personally I like to go down into the cabin and get out of the elements; I am not interested in looking out from below.

7. This sort of boat was built by people who had limited facilities - Marie Michon was built by a firm of fishing boat builders, Gilbert and Pascoe, who were "discovered" by the Warrington-Smyth family because they were extremely cheap - they had not built a yacht before. I recall from somewhere that Marie Michon cost £200 in 1927 which was very cheap indeed - with the salvaged hatch and skylight and with internal fitting out done by the owner. This makes them practical boats for amateurs to build so long as one is in the sort of size where one man can cope with the frame members and strakes of planking.

So Andrew, what are the bad points as you see them, or are there none?or asked another way, why haven't you traded Mirelle on such a boat?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I do in fact favour this sort of boat.

Mirelle has not been traded in for one because I am very fond of her.

Oh, and because I live on the East coast of England where our waters are shallow. Marie Michon was built in Cornwall where the water is deep.

[PeterSibley]

...and the crucial question Andrew , which do you think is the better sea boat ?

[Paul Pless]

Mirelle has not been traded in for one because I am very fond of her.

Fair enough... and quite understandable!

[PeterSibley]

[quote=Andrew Craig-Bennett;2202413

Mirelle has not been traded in for one because I am very fond of her.

[/quote]

Very understandable ! She is a delight !

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Oh, Marie Michon would be the better seaboat, undoubtedly.

The two are pretty similar; the difference is really quite small, but the advantages of Marie Michon as a seaboat seem to be these:

1. Better windward performance, espescially in strong winds, due to her deeper draft and higher ballast ratio.

2. Stronger construction, with no coach roof.

3. Would probably lie-to better.

Mirelle is pretty good, but her weakness is her windward performance, which is handicapped by her draft being kept down to 5ft.

Another point is that Marie Michon would be quite a bit easier to build. No counter, no coach roof...should be a very easy hull to plank with the soft bilges...

[rufustr]

Am I right in thinking you would modify the lines and keep the work you have already done on the keel?

If I remember correctly your keel is a big structure and you are well advanced with it.

[PeterSibley]

That would be right Rufus , I would remove the counter timbers and use the existing backbone and ballast casting .It is quite workable , but needs a bit more thought .I have a fair investment in the existing design but this type is pleasing in many ways .

[Paul Pless]

. . . but needs a bit more thought .

he's a crazy man

[RFNK]

Peter
Where are you planning to sail? If you're going to sail in the tropics, do you really want to dispense with the coachroof and do you want deeper draft? If you're planning to go south or to the far north (Europe/Canada), then it would make more sense, wouldn't it? I'd be happy to spend time in the sun on deck and down below when it's unpleasant around Tassie but up north (tropics) I want to be in the shade and have plenty of breeze just about all the time. Rick

[PeterSibley]

Rick ,my prefences are mainly South ,Tassy and NZ .An Atlantic voyage on day ?

I spent time on trawlers up North and I find heat and humidity on a boat difficult ! Oppressive !
If I wanted to sail the Pacific ,I'd build a Wharram cat ,open air and 2 foot draft .

[John B]

All right , I can't stand it any longer.
Peter , you have a design of your own , to build it will be a massive achievement ,( "No , its my design and I built it , yes it goes very well , no ...no problems with the Tasman etcetc "
Stop playing around with this other sweet little thing shakin' its tail feathers at you for goodness sake.

[rufustr]

I've printed out the lines of the three boats in involved, and I really can't see why you would consider changing your plans.

You can probably achieve a flush deck with your design and have as much room below as with the other two.

The three boats would be similar in displacement, your boat would probably be stiffer with its fuller bilges, and you can use the traditional rig from Marie Michon.

[PeterSibley]

John ,nothing's is happening boat wise at the moment .I'm building extra accomadations for the brood ....so just thinking ....also, we have had 380 mm of rain over the last 3 days and I'm spending way too much time figuring , drawing and playing on the 'puter .I'd rather be driving nails .

That said , I like MM ,the Corineus design I posted was a favorite of mine years ago .The thread linked at the top opened pandoras Box !

[PeterSibley]

I've printed out the lines of the three boats in involved, and I really can't see why you would consider changing your plans.

You can probably achieve a flush deck with your design and have as much room below as with the other two.

The three boats would be similar in displacement, your boat would probably be stiffer with its fuller bilges, and you can use the traditional rig from Marie Michon.

Quite true ! Silly of me , but I still like MM .Perhaps sanity will return when the rain stops .

[rufustr]

I was to be back on my job this morning but had had something in my eye for a couple of days, (while the rain event was happening) and went and got my Doctor to remove it.

His advice was to go home and rest the eye for the day.

That's why I'm here in the office.

Back to work tomorrow.

[PeterSibley]

Good timing ! I'm just nailing on champhers , right under the drip line .I'm glad I choose not to put the t&g down until I finished the walls .

[WX]

Peter, i would go with what you have, if you are happy with it of course. I wouldn't want to have to go back and redesign and redo anything but I'm speaking from the "this has already taken me too long" viewpoint.

Rufus, i didn't know you were a KDE man?

[rufustr]

OK Gary, Ill bite.

KDE Man?

[PeterSibley]

Operating system on your computer ?

[rufustr]

OK, I looked it up.

No Gary, at least not consciously.

Edited to add.

I went back and looked at the enhanced drawing of Peter's boat's lines.

The format already existed with Peter's drawing before I enhanced it.

[WX]

The program you are using is a linux application. So i figured you are running Linux as your operating system and using KDE as your desktop.

[rufustr]

Insert Big Grin Here.

[rufustr]

Peter,

I took this photo of Storm Bay coming in at Hobart.

I like the forward cabin entry with Spray Dodger, and perhaps something like this would give ample protection in bad weather, while leaving the deck uncluttered with a cabin top.