Calking Basics "Dove"

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

So I Started to sand and pull some old calking. The strake below the water line has some different calking than the calking above the waterline. It is elastic rubbery calking and looks awful tar like stains.



So I pulled it all out and and scraped all the gunk off clean and clear. A little scary cause I can see inside the boat



The calking above the water line is totally different and tight and clean. Do I have to pull that out as well and re-caulk?



OK the next question and I will search WBF Building FAQ but how exactly does one caulk a boat like this and I'm supposed to soak the wood first ? What tools do I need to buy and where do I get calking and what do I use to traditionally caulk. I am a TOTAL novice at this.

[Bob Cleek]

Okay, maybe Fleming will see this and take pity on you. I'd recken he knows more about this than anybody. I'll throw in a few observations.

Check out the WB index for past articles on caulking. They are as good as it gets. A picture is worth a thousand words. Unfortunately, describing how to caulk takes more than that. There's a "feel" to it and a "sound" to it that are easily understood and mastered, but you have to feel and hear them. That can't be done with words.

First, leave the topsides alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Don't "soak the boat." You want to caulk dry. That way, when the boat takes up, the planks will swell and tighten the caulking. Also, from your picture, the cotton you've pulled out looks pretty decent. If the cotton is still white (sort of.. it's unbleached cotton to begin with), it is okay. If it is in there tightly, you can leave it... or put a bit more on top of it. There's no point in reefing out decent, well set cotton. If the cotton is rotten, it has to be reefed out. If so, it will be dark and will not hold together, but will fall apart when you scrape at it.

It appears from your description that the bottom has been messed with by somebody who probably didn't know what they were doing. Filling seams with large amounts of polysulfide caulk isn't proper.

You should get a "reefing hook." These are very hard to come by, but easily made. Take an old file and heat the tang so that it can be bent at right angles to the file. Temper it after the bend. (Take it to a blacksmith if you don't feel up to doing the metalwork yourself.) Then taper the tang edges a bit inward and sharpen them. You want a V-shaped scraper that will clean the plank seam WITHOUT OPENING IT UP ANY MORE THAN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. You also want to be as careful as you can not to gouge up the seam. Try for a nice smooth even seam edge so your caulking will go in easily. Wavey uneven seams are a bugger to caulk.

You hope that you won't "see the inside of the boat." If the planks are not tight against each other at the back (inboard) of the seam, you will have problems caulking because you will have nothing against which to pound the caulk. The cotton will go right through into the boat!

If you don't have a back to the seam, you will have to pack in a large hunk of cotton very carefully and hope it holds. You can sometimes temporarily fasten a batten to the inside of the seam and caulk against that. In the best of all worlds, you are hammering a twisted rope of caulking into a V-shaped seam so that the harder you pound, the tighter the cotton is packed in there. If the seam is really wide, like a quarter inch, you may have to spline the seam by cutting the plank edge fair and gluing in a spline to create a new caulking seam. (BIG pain in the ass.)

Before caulking, be sure the fastenings are good. Frequently, leaking is a function not of defective caulking, which should sit in there pretty much forever, but rather because the planks are moving. This is particularly true with garboard seams. If the garboard seams are wide or look like somebody's packed them repeatedly because they've been leaky, check the floor to frame fastenings. Garboards open up and leak when the frames start to separate from the floors. There is little point in trying to caulk a boat which needs refastening or floor timber work. The caulking will only spread things farther apart and make proper repairs later more difficult.

Once your seams are ready, you put the caulking in and then paint it. I now recommend CPES for this rather than the traditional thinned red lead paint. The CPES penetrates the cotton much better, but remains flexible. I like to think it also prevents deterioration of the cotton, but CPES hasn't been around long enough to verify this, so the jury's still out. After you caulk and paint, cover the cotton with any of the commercial underwater seam compounds from ZSpar or Interlux or whoever. Please, don't use 5200!

Nobody can really write a description of how to caulk exactly. You have to have somebody show you how to do it. You have to set up the cotton "hard enough, but not too hard." Right, what the hell does that mean? Well, as much as I can tell you is that "hard enough" means as hard as you can without driving it through the seam into the boat!

As for tools, that's a problem these days. As I recall, Jamestown Distributors and Defender Marine offer basic "making" irons in a couple of thicknesses ("0" "00" and "1") for hammering the cotton into the seam. (Don't use putty knives, chisels or screw drivers!) They also carry caulking cotton. You will have to order anything else from Toplicht or Davey in Germany or England. (They carry oakum, which is used on really wide seams.) A few specialty forges make very nice irons still, but they are costly. Check out what a full set of irons and hooks used to look like in the "good old days" at http://www.numismalink.com/drew.ency.34.59a.html

In damaged seams, a "dumb iron" is very handy. They are hammered into the seam before the cotton and even and spread the seam when it is too tight or uneven. These are hard to come by these days, unfortunately.

You don't really need a fancy caulking mallet. They have their advantages, particularly after a day's worth of caulking. (You'll get "caulker's elbow" a lot quicker with a hammer!) A decent wooden mallet will work well enough. I'm not partial to using a metal hammer because it will spall the head of your irons, put too much energy into the impact and the vibration created in the iron will hurt your hand and fingers in short order.

The full caulker's set of irons runs to some twenty irons, hooks and so on at a minimum and up to thirty or more if its a really good collection. You'll only find one in a museum these days (or in my shop, heh, heh, heh! Most of which I've never had occasion to use since I've never corked four inch plank!) Don't be intimidated, though. For small boat work, you only need two or three of the smallest irons. You will likely run into some spots where other irons are better suited, like the butt seams,
the curved seams at the hood ends at the stem rabbets, and sharp turns at the garboards, but you can usually improvise in those situations.

If you can find somebody who has caulked for a living, and you can convince them to let you "steal the trade," you should be able to get the hang of it pretty quickly. Don't be intimidated. It isn't rocket science. You just have to see it done right once and you should do fine. The real skill comes into play when recaulking damaged seams. Unfortunately, you probably are facing some funky seams. An experienced corker ought to be able to show you some tricks of the trade for solving those problems.

Once you meet the challenge of this boat, you'll be able to answer your question the next time somebody asks it in here! If you run into problems along the way, post again and maybe somebody will have an answer for it. Probably will. It's an important topic and one not addressed in here too often. Good luck!

[ 03-26-2005, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[Bob Cleek]

What Fleming said... I was assuming you weren't asking this question with a hammer in your hand! LOL

[StevenBauer]

I told you to come up for the Maine Boatbuilders Show! look in the foreground of this shot!



Two boxes of caulking irons!

But I don't think you need to shop at Toplicht or Davey (R&W in New Bedford carries the whole Davey line BTW) though. I'm pretty sure you can get anything you need from Hamilton Marine (right next to where the MBS was )

If you need some hands on lessons maybe Thad could help you out. Have you been hanging out at the local oldtimey boatyards near you? Might be a good place to start.

Steven

[StevenBauer]

I've been meaning to ask this anyway. Are the caulking irons they sell at the WoodenBoat Store any good?



This set of three is $42, sizes 00, 0 and 1
Or $15 each.

Steven

www.hamiltonmarine.com

[Dave Fleming]

Steven, I have no idea of the quality of steel in the Irons you are showing but, I can say they look rough as a cob!

Irons should be almost glass smooth in finish.
Elsewise you run the chance of snagging the cotton thread you are corking.
Oakum is more forgiving in that regard.

[sdowney717]

How about If I tell you a radical solution to your underwater seams.
Clean out the old seam cotton rubber caulk etc.. whatever.
Remove all the old bottom paint, sand etc...
Fill up the seams with any old polyurethane
caulk. HD sells polyurethane window and door sealant for 3.50 a tube.

Buy 5 gallons of Sanitred polyurethane aromatic.
Coat the bottom of the boat with several coats.
It is a rubber flexible coating wont ever crack.
Dont paint antifouling, the Sanitred supposedly repels barnacles.
Never worry about the bottom ever again, except for frsh water intrusion from the inside.
Ask them yourself
www.sanitred.com

I have used it and it works very well for me. I have even thought you could staple fiberglass or kevlar cloth to the wood and paint this stuff on.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
STOP STOP STOP

You with me so far?

Let's be very slow to do ANYTHING with this boat.

Open seams are not necessarily bad for a boat this age and condition.

It has sat in dry storage for many years. You have yet to truly determine what wood the planking is, correct?

Mr.S will be able to quote you chapter and verse on that particular wood,ONCE you determine what wood it is.

Again don't be a 'Bull in a China Shop' here.

If you don't acquire some patience with this project you run the risk of really messing things up.

Dave, the reason I asked this question is because I am taking my time. I do work fast and I don't slow down. I get a lot of work done at the end of the day. I grab concepts rather quickly, thank you Bob GREAT information. I KNEW strait away that goop below the water line was someone who acted like a bull in a china shop and needed to go.

I do have limited shipwright education and that is what this forum is for. Dave the plans say the wood SHOULD be cedar as I told you. But come on HOW is a layman like me going to know one wood from the next. I can pick out the difference between the mahogany and the pine thwarts and THATS about it

[ 03-26-2005, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[holzbt]

Joe- Refer to my post on page one of the other DOVE thread. It's hard to tell from a picture but how open is that seam on the inside? If it's not too bad you might try caulking the boat dry. On an open seam you try to roll the cotton in along either the top OR bottom of the seam rather than just driving it staight in. You make sure that the iron is basically scraping along one edge of the seam and sort of pulling the cotton in along the face that is not in contact with the edge of the seam. My description isn't very good but I could show you the basics in a few minutes. How tight to caulk is a judgement call but remember that although caulking too loosely might lead to some leaking, caulking too tightly can damage the planking or even break frames or cause fastening problems.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Dave Fleming. Bob Cleek & holzbt how do I determine a fastening problem? It seems as though the fasteners are holding tight. But in order to check I would have to remove the bungs and check and then replace the bungs. Something I would NOT want have to do. Is there any other way ?

[ 03-26-2005, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[holzbt]

The first thing to do is ask the previous owners if they had any problems with leaking or parts moving enough to consistently crack paint at joints. The second thing is to just look closely at the boat. The chine is the weak point in a flat bottom boat, look at the bottom/side frame joints. If there is a paint ridge on the frame with a gap between the ridge and the frame it's fastened to at any point then the frame has moved. This would usually be "FIXED" by stuffing the chine seam full of goop/cotton/stuff which just makes the problem worse. If this is the case clean out the seams and clamp/wedge/pry the boat back so the frames are in their original position and rebolt them before recaulking. If all the paint in the corners is good you should be all right. You can also just push with your hand against the inside of the planking, use a bit of force but don't get crazy. You are just trying to see if the planking will move which indicates loose fastenings. If the boat is extremely dry it's posible that you could get slight movement even with good fastenings but if you can move a plank enough to slip a putty knife in while you are pushing you probably need to pull some fastenings to check.

[Memphis Mike]

I'd pull all that old caulk outa there Joe and stuff some more cotten in. Fill the seams with 5200 both inside and out. Sand, paint.. no leaks.

There are more "modern" ways to restore this boat. There are no set rules that state you have to adhere to traditional methods.

This is a sailboat. How fast are your going to be doing?

If it was a powerboat, I'd be more concerned.

[ 03-27-2005, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by MIke:
I may have missed information that states that the boat is built with screws, so please ignore my ignorance here. If fasteners show fine, then I bet the frames as so dry, the screws may not have as much wood to grab to in the frames.

You say you do not wish to pull any bungs? Bet you will have some bungs come free upon the initial entry into water, especially if your screws are loose. Just curious, what was the reasoning for making the attempt of removing the seam material at this time?

I don't mind saying, in your particular situation, invest in a good survey by an approved wooden boat fellow that I bet someone can recommend in your area. Stop, as Dave says. Cosmetic work, such as sanding may be a bit out of order of the chain of events, as we see it now. You are dealing with a lot of changes with this boat from its original condition pertaining to parts and fits.

edited to say, the more I think about it, the screws would be at the top of the list as it stands now, making sure that they are in good order both physically and securely planted into wood. I would not remove any more paint for that bottom, exposing bare wood for further problems till you address SCREWSMy .02 worth

? She is fastened with bronze screws through out. Some bungs coming free is fine a whole refastening job is not something I think is needed nor do I want to do. As it is there are about 4 bungs that need replacing. The fasteners and the frames are flat and true to the planking with no sign of cracked paint.

? There ARE NO wooden boat experts or surveyors in my area that I know or trust YOU GUYS ARE IT

? The reasoning for making the attempt of removing the seam material at this time? #1 because the compound on that particular section was Home Depot DIY crap and needed to go. #2 I am going to re-calk the boat, where needed so I do not consider that cosmetic work.

? I checked all the frames and planks and they seem very tight that particular strake is one of the only ones that has such a big gap. There is another location on the underside where the bottom planking comes in contact with that plank on the high end of the curve where there is the same bad caulking.

? So if you are saying remove all the bungs and clamp and refasten the entire boat is what I should do first and not scrape and sand off the old gunk and paint just to see what's under the old cosmetic work to evaluate the condition of the wood and the structure?

? Now let me address a tone that I'm feeling. There seems to be an overall consensus from some of the old salts that I am somehow going to ruin this project and I have no right to even be undertaking this kind of restoration on this kind of boat. Let us be perfectly clear on this I VALUE your expertise I would NEVER even attempt this kind of restoration if it was not for this forum. I ASK most questions BEFORE I do work on the boat.
My questions may seem ridiculas and novice but I am willing to learn and listen as long as it is presented in a helpful and not condescending manner. But if I were to decide to set the whole boat on fire and sit and roast marshmallows it would be my choice and my boat to do so. Given the other choice this boat would have remained in that barn and used as a dumpster until it turned to dust. ANYTHING I do is better than that. If anyone knows a wooden boat expert who lives close to me please send them my way I would welcome the advice. But I'm not about to stop working on the boat learning along the way.

Bob Cleek & Dave and MIke you are all in my shop with me. So tell me what I should do I will listen.

[ 03-27-2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[StevenBauer]

How far from you is Clearwater based? Who looks after the caulking on her? You might have more local expertise than you realize. Could you afford to pay someone to travel to you and take a closer look? Roger is only an hour ar so away. Could you pay him (or someone like him) for a day's work of checking some fasteners and seams? A little caulking lesson maybe? I'd come and do it with you but I'm not an expert either.
If the planks are tight to the frames and the paint at the seams is good the fasteners are probably OK. What you need then is an experienced caulker. Don't worry, they are out there and and you'll find one. In the meantime keep reading up on caulking.

Steven

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

The black stuff below the water line looks like oakum soaked in tar. Wasn't this a common practice?
Some good info here.....

http://www.boats.com/boat-articles/R...sics/1941.html

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Mr KIA I wish it was tar soaked oakum, its just plane ol home depot caulking that was applied with a heavy hand and smeared all over.

MIke I pulled a couple of bungs and unscrewed some screws. They came out clean I was worried I would bust one off but they look almost new. It also looks as though this has been done before since some of the bungs are bondo and not wood, something I would not have known had I not sanded a bit of the cosmetic off of them

I photographed them but I left my connection cord in my office in town. I will post them tomorrow .

[ 03-27-2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

So let me ask ya MIke if the screws come out clean. Is there anything wrong with putting an extra one in where needed to close a gap? Counter sunk bronze screw of course. Also is bondo a preferred bung in this kind of a restoration. Sounds much easier to me but so does that Sanitred polyurethane rubber paint Oh is that stuff tempting just slap it on and go sailing [img]smile.gif[/img] tempting

[ 03-28-2005, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[StevenBauer]

How's your WoodenBoat Magazine collection coming along? Got #15? Nice caulking article by Sam Manning and an article on varnishing, too. [img]smile.gif[/img]
What kinda gap?

Steven

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by MIke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
So let me ask ya MIke if the screws come out clean. Is there anything wrong with putting an extra one in where needed to close a gap? Counter sunk bronze screw of course. Also is bondo a preferred bung in this kind of a restoration. Sounds much easier to me but so does that Sanitred polyurethane rubber paint Oh is that stuff tempting just slap it on and go sailing [img]smile.gif[/img] tempting

Are you now saying that you have some gap between the plank and frame with screws still in place? This is not consistant to a post in the above section of the thread. If so then something is not right. I gotta go but keep one thing in mind. The plank witdh sometimes dictates the amount of added screws that can be placed in them, as not to create a "sawing apart" effect. Maybe some of the others will be along to address this further.

No bondo is not a preferred fix but a quick fix in most cases of a survey or to patch till a complete haulout or spring redo.</font>[/QUOTE]The boat is in that complete haul out stage now, I would rather do it now the proper way.

I did mention the high spot previously.

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):


? I checked all the frames and planks and they seem very tight that particular strake is one of the only ones that has such a big gap. There is another location on the underside where the bottom planking comes in contact with that plank on the high end of the curve where there is the same bad caulking.

[StevenBauer]

This would be a good time for some of those famous pictures.

Steven

[Dave Hadfield]

My old ketch is 55 years old. I am very glad no one ever took 5200 to the seams.

If the plank seam is very wide, so that you can easily see through it, caulking is going to be a bitch. Whether or not you glue in a full length cedar shim is a judgement call based on what faces your eyeballs.

It may be that in the past someone tried to caulk it dry, and over filled the seam, or over-pounded the cotton, and permanently increased the gap. If that's the case then it's damage, and has to be fixed like any other damage. Might be easier to replace the planks.

But you could swell up that particular area, plus a few planks on either side of it to see what it's going to expand to. That may close it up enough to re-caulk. Not more than you have to for reasons that Bob said.

Just lay towels or paper shop-towels from the bilge to a plank or 2 above the area in question, and keep them moist for a few days. You can stop the process at any time by just removing the towels. Since we're talking garboard here, I wouldn't do it in a localized fashion, but the length of the boat from the keel to above the bad seam. You want an even increase over a large area, nothing localized.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Photo is worth 1,000 words so here are a few thousand words.









This is taken from the bottom where the bottom planking meets the gaurdboard.



Close UP

[sdowney717]

Hi your screws look pretty good.
Question is how do all the others look.
Really, most of the problems wooden boats have come down to water damage. Salt water eats bronze screws even when bunged. Bungs might slow it down a little.
But then you get weepage rot. Even on perfect new hulls. This is where salt water works thru the wood, evaporates on surfaces and shreds wood fibers. I have done extensive bottom work on my 37 egg and seen plenty of weepage damage I have had to fix.

For a great site about wood boat surveys information go here. He tells it like it is. IMO, he is overly negative but this is from his experience and we know many old wooden boats dont get the best care.

http://www.marinesurvey.com/surveyguide/wood0.htm

Truly if you can keep corrosive salt water away from wood and underwater metal, you have solved and stopped the continual ongoing degradation and destruction of a wooden boat.

The sanitred is absolutely 100% waterproof and soaks into wood and is tough stuff. I have glued together parts with this and it works real well. The parts I glued, broke in the wood grain. It is a similar material to 5200 but it goes on just like a thick paint, turns semi glossy and when wet feels slippery just like it was oiled.

I know some are resistant to new things.

[Figment]

Originally posted by sdowney717:
Truly if you can keep corrosive salt water away from wood and underwater metal, you have solved and stopped the continual ongoing degradation and destruction of a wooden boat.

I gotta throw a big ol' "HUH???????" at this one.

So..... as long as the boat is never launched, it'll be just fine?

Joe, I have faith. Your exuberance may cause you to do some things two or even three times to get them right, but you'll set your jaw and get it done in due time. Everyone learns sometime, somehow.
Having said that, a few afternoons spent working alongside experienced hands will be worth a thousand WBF posts.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by MIke:
Joe, my opinion, you are in over your head. You need some experienced hands on advice. No amount of enthusiasm by you will fix what I see in a couple of those shots with limited knowledge and from cyberspace. Sorry

Um yea

Well I was waiting for a response I did a little cosmetic sanding. On all the thwarts and floorboards [img]smile.gif[/img]



Ya know sdowney717, I called that sanitred place today. The tech guy made stuff sound like miracle goop. The #1 question I asked is can the stuff be removed. He said OH NO once it is sanitred it stays sanitred. That part kinda bothers me, I try to first do no harm and if I do I like to be able to take it back They are sending me a packet of samples I will play with it on scrap wood to see what it does. They did say they have a formula that acts as a calk and is flexible and won't cause any unneeded pressure on the planks. And ya they said it is totally absolutely 100% waterproof.

But its not traditional and once you cross that line. Remember I'm thinking of traditional canvas deck, not Dynle and epoxy. Although that Sanitred makes a goop that is made for decks and even comes with a rubber tread anti skid light tan that is nice. Sorry guys I know but its a nice tan for the deck lol [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-28-2005, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[John Bell]

I'm really curious about this one and what's the fix.

It seems to me that the first thing to figure out is why the seams are so open. If you don't know what caused the problem you may waste a lot of effort and still not have it fixed.

If it's because they have been overcaulked and the plank edges are crushed, then there's a couple of fixes I can think of, but the easiest may be to pull the plank(s) and spile (a) new one(s) that fits. At least with a dory hull you won't have to back out the plank and cut long running bevels like you would with a round bilged craft.

Whatever you do, PLEASE don't put any miracle goops or 5200 on this boat! Not that I think you are inclined to do such a thing, but I still want to get my $0.02 worth.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Ok now I got a totally neophyte question but hey its just a question I haven't poured gasoline on the boat yet and struck the match

What if you make a Dutchman like plank on the inside overlapping both planks. Then screw it in place from the inside of the hull and then calk traditionally from the outside? Or I could cut a thin shim of cedar and run it along the gap. I don't think the gap is from movement but from poor reefing out of the old caulk year after year.

Hey don't kill me it was just an IDEA. As for the goop I'm gonna avoid it best I can I LIKE the challenge.

[ 03-28-2005, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[John Bell]

Our Fine Hosts ran an article a while back that gave at least one repair option for damaged seams. The gist of it was that the 'bad' edge would be routed off the the offending plank and a new edge with the proper bevel to accept caulking cotton glued on. It may be easier to make a new plank, though.

FWIW, I don't like the idea of putting a batten on the back. How are you going to get it behind the frames? Assuming you notch the frames for the batten, how badly have you weakened them? Maybe it's just me, but this seems harder than engaging in a appropriate repair.

Also, what's so bad about refastening? I'd be pretty concerned that the screw holes in the frames have enlarged from movement, water, or drying out, so going up a size with some new bronze would be good insurance to make the boat last another 50 years.

I honestly want you to succeed at this, Joe. I just wish I could be there to see and help with the process. Don't let a fear of taking her apart a little bit stand in the way of doing a good job.

[Bob Cleek]

Well, from the latest pics, Joe, I'd say some ham fisted bugger brutalized that seam! Looks like a lot I've seen. They go at it with a hook or God knows what and widen the seam beyond all redemption. Then they fill it full of 5200 or the like, slather some monkey **** on it and claim it'll never leak a day!

You can't fit a dutchman behind the plank because you won't have enough depth left in the seam to caulk. In any event, those seams are way too wide. On a boat that size they should start at between a quarter and an eigth of an inch and taper to nothing about two thirds of the way into the plank edge. From the looks of it, and the overall quality of the boat, I'd be thinking of splining the seam and hoping to make a decent caulking seam, or (actually often easier) just replace the plank. What you do is take out the worst or easiest to remove plank on the seam. Take a bullnosed rabet plane and smooth the sides of the plank remaining (clean up the other hopefully decent plank edge, or plane it too, if needed). Then cut and hang a replacement plank with nice proper caulking bevels on it. After that, caulking should be a breeze.

The less smooth and even the caulking seam is, the harder she will be to caulk.

Replacing a plank isn't hard. Just more work. Save the old plank as a pattern, but cut the new enough bigger so you can plane her down to fit.

Check out Jim Trefethin's (sp?) book on "Restoring Wooden Boats" and anything WB has published on replacing planks.

And, I know they are trying to be helpful, but ignore the advice about slathering goop on her!

BTW the irons that WB sells (same as you get from Hamilton Marine, etc.) are about all you will really need for a small job like this. Decent irons from some of the specialty foundries will run you around fifty bucks a piece and, as Dave says, they are very smooth and well polished. If you luck onto some old timers, grab 'em. I doubt that you'll find any in a garage sale, though.

Again, try to find somebody who's got some caulking experience anywhere near you. You'll usually find them close to water, which I think you are. LOL Given the pictures, though, I don't think you can really hope to caulk a seam in that shape. Maybe Fleming has another take on it. Let's hope he can add to the collective wisdom here.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OK Cleek and Mike Here is what I will do. This week I will go to ML. Condon Marine lumber yard. Talk to them about two new planks. They even have a finishing mill that can make a machined calking rabbit on the top edge. I can keep the bottom edge of the plank a little long and then plane it in place. Order a couple of boxes of 1" SB screws and some bungs. if I remove these planks and the whole boat falls apart I will hunt you both down like a dog and drag you to my barn to fix it It will also make it less tragic if I have two new planks cut and routed ready to go as soon as remove the old ones. It will make the vision of dove's ribs showing less painful.

[ 03-28-2005, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Wow, this is getting really good.
Now ya know why I like those lapstrake boats.
If you really want to get to know your boat, refasten or re-clinch it.
You'll know it's done right and you'll know every inch of her.
Hang in there Joe. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[StevenBauer]

Ask at Condons about caulkers, too.

Steven

[sdowney717]

Water does slowly destroy boats otherwise there would be no need to ever repair a wooden boat.
Weepage, angel hair rot, fungus rot, wasted fasteners warpage etc... all because wood and metal parts are exposed to water.
This discussion is really pointing to 2 separate philosophies here on wooden boat repair.
If a product gives me a significant advantage and the cost is reasonable, I usually pursue it.
Fixing your boat the same old way works, but you are still exposed to the continual cycle of rot and repair.

[John Bell]

"It will also make it less tragic if I have two new planks cut and routed ready to go as soon as remove the old ones."

How in the world do you plan to be able to communicate to Condon the exact shape of the planks you need? That's a job that's going require a lot of trial fittings and adjustments.

I really like Mike's idea to practice on a piece of lumberyard spruce before you commit to a good stick of cedar. It sounds like fun to me, spiling the rough shape and planing it bit by bit until you've got a perfect fit.

I'm guessing you're in a big hurry to get this boat done and in the water. So... what'd you promise your wife about how long it's going to take?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

John & MIke

Seems simple to me

#1 Remove old planks
#2 Take old planks to Condon have them copy planks with a calking rabbet. Also a little extra at the bottom to plane after re-fastening for a nice tight fit.

New 1 1/4" SC Bronze screws ( a little longer, is that a good idea ? )

I cant believe I just typed the word re-fastening

[John Bell]

The new planks are going to need to be a bit taller at the top, too. And depending on how much you plane the next plank up, it may require some fiddling to make it fit. I may be wrong, but I think it's pretty much a long shot to be able to have a plank machined to order.

I always thought refastening usually means going up a size, not length; e.g. if the screws are #10s, you go to #12s. Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.

[StevenBauer]

Joe, I think it's still too soon to be thinking of replacing that plank. This old gal has been in a dry barn for, what, 15 or 20 years? I've seen 1/4" gaps swell closed on boats that were stored outside in the weather! How big is that gap, exactly? And how wide is the plank? Flat sawn cedar that's 7" or 8" wide will swell quite a bit. I don't think you answered me before, have you asked the Clearwater people about who looks after their caulking needs? www.clearwater.org They are right in Poughkeepsie, no? Isn't that close to you? Refastening, maybe. Replacing planks, too soon to say. Somehow or other I think you should have someone with caulking experience take a look at her.

Steven

[Memphis Mike]

"What if you make a Dutchman like plank on the inside overlapping both planks. Then screw it in place from the inside of the hull and then calk traditionally from the outside? Or I could cut a thin shim of cedar and run it along the gap. I don't think the gap is from movement but from poor reefing out of the old caulk year after year."

Apply a cardboard and wax paper backing to the inside of the hull. Fill hole with Bondo and follow up fiberglass cloth and polyester resin.

Sand, paint, boat look like new.
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[John Bell]

Originally posted by Memphis Mike:
Apply a cardboard and wax paper backing to the inside of the hull. Fill hole with Bondo and follow up fiberglass cloth and polyester resin.

Sand, paint, boat look like new.
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Heavens Lovey! A Yale man!

[Bob Cleek]

I can't see the point of trying to pre-mill a plank at all. You'd have to be awfully lucky to get it right on the first, second or third try. Just get yourself a decent plank and cut it yourself. As said, if you want to practice, use a piece of junk wood for a first try. There is nothing difficult about cutting a caulking seam bevel. Just cut your plank to fit and when it's just right, take it off (you'll be doing that a lot to fit it!) one last time and run a plane down the edge. What you do is take your marking gauge (you got one, right? If not, buy one.) and scribe one line on the edge that represents the depth of the seam and another that represents the width. Plane on an angle until you reach both lines and you'll have your bevel. Check in any of the good traditional boat building books for the proper depth and width, which will vary depending on the width of your planking stock.

Another note on planking stock... you should take your old plank, or a pattern, with you so you can make sure it fits over the new stock. A good lumber yard should have flitch cut stock. These planks, with the bark still on the edges, will often be curved and sometimes a curved one will be just right. Also, make sure that you get your stock thick enough to allow for backing out and fairing if this is required.

There was a very good point made above about swelling. I wasn't paying attention. If your planks are wide, as they usually tend to be in a dory built boat, they WILL swell more than if narrower. It is possible (sorry, but usually not likely) that the open seam is the result of shrinkage and that somebody packed it full of goop when open. If so, letting her take up a bit may solve some problems and avoid replacing the plank. However, from the looks of the photos, I'd say somebody's already ruined the caulking seam and plank replacement is perhaps the only option. If the problem was shrinkage, you'd be looking at all of the seams opening that wide, not just the garboard.

Again, as it bears noting, garboard seam problems are almost always related to floor timber weakness. When the frames aren't fastened properly to the floors and keel, the usual tensions when sailing the boat pull upwards and create a separation at the garboard seam. Check that out for sure.

Last, but not least, DO NOT buy bungs! First, they are ridiculously expensive and second, store bought ones often don't fit. Buy the size Fuller tapered bit you need, with the countersink and stop on it, together with a Fuller plug cutter of the same size. If you buy just the size(s) you need, they are not expensive, less than $25 for a bit and plug cutter, I'd guess. (The whole set is about eighty bucks, last I checked, but you don't need the whole set.) Cut your bungs out of the offcuts from your planking stock. You will know that they are exactly the right size and that the wood has the same characteristics and the same moisture content. You won't experience any problems bunging her. You'll also have those on hand anytime you need to replace a screw or do some other job that requires a bunged screw head.

[ 03-29-2005, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[Memphis Mike]

A side note:

Remove cardboard and wax paper from inside before finishing with fiberglass tape and more polyester resin.

Hull much stronger now also. Low maintenance.

[Disco Bay]

Joe,

I am of the novice calibre just a rung or two below yourself and have similar issues on my hands and mind. I believe your headed down the right path, in replacement that is. I wanted to post some photos at the goop, half-assed, just-want-to-get-er-back-in-the-water repairs that the previous owners of the Anne Katherine performed.


Above we see a 1/4' length of cedar strip RAMMED into the seem (port side at the WL) set in god only knows what and "carefully" finished. Needless to say this repair cramped the seams both above and below when she took up and blew out most of the frames at the downturn into the keelson.


Stbd. side from stem to strake above garboard, the same repair set in 5200 (the pink stuff).


Leading edge of the stbd strip between keelson rabbet and garboard. I am deathly afraid of the condition of the rabbet after this is removed.


Hard to see here, but every frame along the strbd seam "repair" is blown out. You can see the protrusion of the "goop" pushing through the seam along the lower right side of this photo.

As Mr. Cleek mentioned at the bottom of the previous page, these repairs were performed after 2 years of drying out and fit very tightly without even attempting to bring the planks to a swell. I believe someone else mentioned this earlier as well. Soak 'er up a bit and see what happens first.

I submit this as a testament for approching your ordeal in a calm, cool, and collected manner. The fellas that destroyed my boat sure were not of that ilk. I too am not touching these items w/o the care and guidance of a professional. Had these seams been repaired properly (rather than propoorly) in the first place, this boat could very well be in the water. As she is now, I've got 20 frames to replace, most likely a complete refastening, and a lot of new planking. Those in the know that have seen this first hand state that the boat would be in much better shape had these two "repairs" never been performed.

I love and share your enthusiasm. Just a cautionary note.

MJB

[ 03-29-2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Disco Bay ]

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Got the goop scraped off yet?
Fun, ain't it?
Has anyone mentioned using a "Hot Knife" to clean the seams?
I'm not quite sure what it is or looks like but I keep reading about them.
Can anyone explain?

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Bump!!!!!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Funny you should bump this Mr. KIA new developments in caulking Dove.

I have donated my limited time to the Beacon Sloop Club
http://www.beaconsloopclub.org/

I spoke with the director yesterday. In return they are going to teach me how to caulk. Also I convinced one of the restoration caulkers to come up and take a look at Dove.

Cool wooden sloop the WOODY GUTHRIE

The Beacon Sloop Club's pride & joy is the "WOODY GUTHRIE" , a wooden replica of a Hudson River Ferry Sloop. These boats, styled after Dutch designs, plied the Hudson throughout the 18th & 19th centuries.

[StevenBauer]

I thought there must be some local knowledge on traditional techniques. Great news.

Steven

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

See I listened to you Steven

[Nora Lee]

Hey Joe! You are doing it all the right way...just a reminder that the Dove on the Bow of the Woodie Guthrie was painted by Gail Adams, the same artist who did DOVE's dove!

I have been lurking for a while! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Regards,

Nora

[Jonathan Kabak]

Joe-

I have the contact info for Don Taube for you. He is a local shipwright, caulker, welder, Captain who among other things has done tons of work for Clearwater over the years. He is finishing up the yard period on the Lettie G. Howard this week down in Tottenville Staten Island and should be free after Wednesday.

If you want his info let me know...

Jonathan

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Jonathan I spoke to him today we are planning on him coming this weekend to take a look at Dove. I may retain his services. Many thanks.