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Thread: Square stern canoe type boats

  1. #1
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    Default Square stern canoe type boats

    Well folks, this seems like the place to jump in and ask for some guidance.

    My son (10 yr old) and I built a PDracer hull last summer and have used it much more frequently than I would have imagined as a small fishing/messing around boat in the small rivers and lakes all over eastern Missouri. Naturally I now want something longer (partly to get him farther away from me when he casts) and my memory recalls a friends Scanoe that seemed well suited for this type of activity.

    What I want:
    1. He and I can build it together
    2. Light and can be hauled in the truck (not many boat ramps or beaches where we go)
    3. Primarily powered with a 4.5 hp outboard and a trolling motor.
    4. Sufficiently stable to stand up in when necessary.

    My top choice right now is the DK Dingy 15', it looks light, stable and dead simple to build. http://www.boatplans.dk/boat_plans.asp?id=1

    I also greatly admire the Little Laker, but it looks heavier and a bit more complex to build. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/ni...aker/index.htm

    Also of potential intrest is the 15' motor canoe here: http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcanoe.htm#BOARD

    Any of you folks built one of these or similar? Any opinions one way or another? Any advice is welcome.

    Thanks,

    Chris

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    There are a bunch of jon boats/simple skiffs that are built similar to the PD racer:http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/power.htm
    or http://www.instantboats.com/pointyskiff.htm
    Some of Michalaks plans are in his book and the pointy skiff plans are in one of Payson's books.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    I would go with your first choice the DK 15 , simple ( is any boat simple ? ) and stable . If you have a choice and are able make it heavier rather than lighter , a bit of weight helps a boat settle down in all conditions.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    Thanks for the replies.

    The Rob White Sport Boat is a beauty! I'd not stumbled on that design yet. Not having done it, strip planking sounds a bit more difficult and time consuming than S&G, true? I'd have also expected strip planking to yield a heavier hull, but he claims roughly the same weight as the DK--88lbs. Of course the Little Laker claims a hull weight of 65lbs, but I don't see how that's possible (3' shorter but less than 1/2 the weight of the Laker?). There's likely something I'm not understanding about the stated hull weights, but it stands to reason that less material is lighter (assuming similar materials).

    Chris

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    Strip and glass is one of the lightest construction types. The wood provides stiffness, the glass adhesion. It needs few frames and no fasteners. Cedar is lighter than lpywood.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    So I'm guessing the strips to be 1/4" or so thick. Don't know why I assumed thicker construction...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    In small boat designs everything is a compromise. You'll have to sift thru' everything and figure out what you can't do without and what you are willing to give up to get it.
    Before we get into all those "build this, build that" comments we need to know what you mean by "can be hauled in a truck". If you mean cartopped weight becomes a problem and the only solution for that is to build on the small side. Then your 4.5 HP motor may become an issue. You can't hang 50+ lb. of motor on a real square stern canoe. The displacement at the stern is to small to support a motor of that weight plus the weight of the average sized pilot. Most genuine square sterned canoes only need 1½HP or so to get up to hull speed.
    If you go to a "sport boat" type canoe the transom is wider and more heavily built to support a bigger motor. Of course, this means the boat goes up in weight and will generally get up beyond what two men can heave over their heads.
    It has to be mentioned that it's very difficult for a novice builder to keep the weight down to what the designer claims. Anything built with epoxy resin can balloon in weight if the builder does not keep epoxy usage down to a bare minimum. And for any design made from plywood the only answer to the weight problem is to use lightest ply available, BS1088 okoume, which many builders shy away from because of the cost.
    There are boats that can be carried in the bed of a full-sized pickup that can support a motor of your size but they can't be much longer than about 11-12 ft. to keep the overhang within the legal limits.
    In terms of practicality a stripper is not the answer. They take roughly three times as long to build and there is no weight advantage because to the large amount of epoxy they require. Epoxy is 9¼ lb. per gallon. A motor driven stripper would have even more of a weight penalty because the bottom needs multiple layers of glass for adequate protection.
    The stand-up requirement is also a problem. The abilty to stand in any particulat boat often rests on the athletic abilty of the person doing the standing. If you want a hull that anyone can readily stand in you are talking about something fairly wide, stabile and, probably, heavier.
    Sorry to lay all this on you but you have to get a firm grip on what you're after before you spend a lot of dough on materials.
    Since everyone is posting boats they like here's a pretty one I prefer;
    http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=HK15&cat=11
    The design is so new I don't think any have been built yet. Perfect for a trolling motor.
    Last edited by Cuyahoga Chuck; 05-03-2009 at 11:51 AM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    Thanks for that. I'm thinking strip planking may be beyond what he and I want to tackle...I would like it to get it wet sometime this summer.

    My plan is to haul it on a ladder rack so 15-17 feet is reasonable. I can go about 125lb and still load by myself (for now). When I see 88lb hull weight, I'm thinking keeping it under 100lb and launching with a dolly. We do that with the short boat (which already is close to 100lb) and it works well in mud, grass and gravel.

    My 4.5 weighs about 50lb (1980 Johnson Seahorse) and the DK says it'll handle up to 5hp, and it appears wider at at the stern than a typical canoe so that still seems the best choice at this point. If the motor is a real issue in practice I can try to swap it for a smaller one, but I've got it so I'd like to use it.

    Standing up will take care of itself, I was just wondering if anybody had specific experiece e.g. "Never stand in a DK" or somesuch...

    Not to hijack my own thread, but speaking of plywood...as you would guess there is no local source of thin marine ply (I can get 3/4" all day long) and shipping is prohibitive (one source quoted $290 for 4 sheets!).

    What is the difference in marine and aircraft ply? There is a local source that has aircraft ply.

    Thanks much for all the input. I don't want my vision to outstrip my needs or abilities.

    Chris

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    yep, that blue one was #3 on my list...

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    If you have access to a supplier of aircraft plywood ask him it it is "BS1088"
    or if it's "Lloyds Certified". These are the buzzwords that refer to the best quality marine plywood. The lightest marine ply is made from Okoume, a tropical, plantation grown hardwood. There are quality marine plys that are made from other types of wood but they are all heavier.
    If you can get the supplier to come up with a brandname that's even better. The better manufacturers put a label with their logo on every sheet.
    At the moment there is Chinese made okoume coming here. The jury is out on that stuff because it has no track record.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    Good to know. Thanks much for the help.

    Chris

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    If S&G is the plan, ol' Mr Mertens at Bateau has more than just the Honker...





    The SC16 planes with 6hp and 2 aboard, so your motor ought to scoot along fairly impressively.

    E

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    Very nice, it looks very stable. But here we are slamming into that compromise thing again--it's built strong for a heavier motor but the advertised hull weight is a whopping 175lb and I've already been warned that I'm unlikely to achieve these weights with a novice build...so I'm pushing 200lb for the hull? This old fat man would need a trailer.

    It seems that my best bet is the lighter build and see if my current motor is unworkable--then deal with that.

    Chris

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Square stern canoe type boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyahoga Chuck View Post
    You can't hang 50+ lb. of motor on a real square stern canoe. The displacement at the stern is to small to support a motor of that weight plus the weight of the average sized pilot. Most genuine square sterned canoes only need 1½HP or so to get up to hull speed.
    I use a 4.0 hp Evinrude on my Grumman 16' square stern aluminum canoe with no problems. This is a true square stern boat, not a sportboat. I'm a fatass too. With another person in the boat its no big deal. With just me in the boat I put the fish cooler and spare gas can, and anchor in the bow and it works. I use the same motor on a friend's Old Town 18' Guideboat and it works great on it too. Surprisingly, canoes offer a lot of capacity compared to boats with hull forms like john boats. My Grumman is rated for 700 pounds and 5 hp. The Old Town is rated for 6 hp and over 1000 pounds of weight.
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 05-04-2009 at 08:17 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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