Alternatives to turnbuckles?

[TomMcKinney]

In re-rigging a sail boat I am looking for alternatives to turnbuckles ans swageed fittings. I was thinking of splicing rope to the wire and using a rope eye with lashings, or a wire spliced eyed with the same. Migth have to go to a swaged loop. I assume wire clamps just aren't safefor sail rig. Any thoughts or experience y'all wish to share?- boat is a 21 foot daysailer sloop rig
Thanks
Tom

[Kim Whitmyre]

My Wharram Tiki 26 uses swaged, eyed loops at the end of the shrouds, and 5 turns of 1/4"/6mm pre-stretched braided line for lashing the loops to their respective fittings on the hulls.

Wire clamps should be in your emergency kit, but I wouldn't use them as rigging right off. . .

Kim

[ssor]

Deadeyes?

[Ken Hutchins]

get a copy of 'The Riggers Apprentice' by Brion Toss, splice the wire around dead eyes.

[StevenBauer]

[Ian McColgin]

This is an idea with more funk than finess. Whether it works or not depends on the rig's design. Especially if she's a marconi rig, even a lowish 1:2, with a thinish mast, you may well need the rigidity of an all metal connection.

First problem is your eye. One at each end.

You could pay to have a swuaged eye, but at that point why not go right along with turnbuckles. You might be able to splice it, but 1x19 is a tough splice, especially in such a small size.

If you went with 7x19 or 7x7, both actually available in suitable sizes, you could go with Molly Hogans siezed at the throat.

Cable clamps, by the way, will work fine but are seriiously unsightly and catch stuff. Best leave them to the Montissier's of the world.

I don't recommend siezing. It's super strong done rightly, which is actually more work than a liverpool splice. It's worthless if done wrong.

It will be neatest if you go with Norseman or similar terminals and turnbuckles.

[Hwyl]

Ian, I thought of mentioning the fact that Steven's picture has clove hitches instead of cow hitches.

I thought "nah, McColgin'll do it", you didn't, so I did.

It's one of those rules I follow, but don't know the reason for ---- a little like driving on the right.

[Ian McColgin]

Well, I am Commadore of WIMPP.

For a small boat such as Tom's, I do not think a clunky set of deadeyes would either look well or perform well.

As Kim mentions above, there are successful lash-ups that are a bit like deadeyes. It's just a multiple lashing through an open-thimbled eye on the stay and a shackle or something nicely radiused on the chainplate. There are many seamanlike ways to secure this. One is: If you keep both ends free and run the lashing such that each free end emerges from opposite sides of the stay's eye, then you can tighten by pushing down hard on both parts, hold one with your knee of foot while you secure the other with a taughtline hitch around all parts, and then secure the part under your foot the same way. This will actually come undone when you need it.

On deadeyes, I'd not use a cow hitch. Nor would I use a clove hitch chafing awkwardly over the deadeye strop as photoed. I'd not use a clove hitch at all, as it jams. I don't really like the somewhat redundant looking wrap-up of the illustrations either.

On can gain a bit of extra mechanical advantage by installing down on the rail a nice strong eye for each end of the deadeye lacing. Failing that, my own favored way is to have two people (or teams) securing the lacing. Each side tightens as hard as possible and then fixes their tail end about midway along the outermost (for each side) part of the lacing with a half hitch. Now they can secure the ends with taughtline hitches and be reasonably sure nothing will either slip or jam.

Now and then one sees one end of the deadeye lacing just knotted and allowed to jam in its hole.

[rbgarr]

Tell us more about the boat, mast and rig: solid spar/gaff rig? hollow spar and spreaders on a marconi rig?

The first is much more forgiving of some slack in the shrouds and stays, the latter not much.

I saw someone who rigged a Lightning class boat with thimbles, stainless schackles and lighter line instead of turnbuckles, The mast cracked open and collapsed during the first trial. Expletive city.

[ 08-14-2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Now and then one sees one end of the deadeye lacing just knotted and allowed to jam in its hole.

This was the traditional way, and is still used. (We sent a shipset of deadeyes to California earlier this year that were fashioned like this.) Both sides of all holes in the upper deadeye are faired to take the lanyard, except for the inner face of the left-hand hole, which is left square-edged so the stopper knot at the end of the lanyard can jam up hard against it.

But it sometimes happens that the sizes of the lanyards and holes don't properly match, in which case the stopper knot can slip through its hole resulting in shroud tension failure. So the option of making both ends fast can be a safer bet.

Mike
.

[JimConlin]

The go-fast multihull folk are switching to synthetic (aramid) shrouds and, instead of turnbuckles, deadeyes by Erik Precourt.
I constantly need to re-check the strength of the materials to believe that these are OK. An interesting development. Watch this space.

[Ian McColgin]

Yep, the new high modulous fibres are amazing. They are also very hard to secure, requiring very special knots and terminals, and seriously more expensive than anything.

Just as dacron and stay-set made the wire to rope or all wire hallyard obsolete, so too the new fibres are making inroads into standing rigging.

[Frank Wentzel]

Tom,

You could also try poured-zinc fittings. They are not really hard to do - Woodenboat had an article on how to do them several years ago. They don't crack, crevice-corrode, split, etc. as swaged fittings often do. You only need a propane or MAPP gas torch to install them and they are even reusable.

/// Frank ///

[William R Roche]

You can exert considerable forces with a lashing and get decent rig tensions. Moray MacPhail provides data on the diameter of rope and number of lashing turns to match wire strengths, see http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Articles/back.htm.

[Jay Greer]

I once lost a very expensive mast due to failure of a poured zink fitting.

[Frank E. Price]

Moitessier went around the world a few times, including downhill around Cape Stiff, with a power pole mast rigged with wire clamps (bulldog clips). I haven't read that they gave him any problems, his problems having to do with staying off the beach and with overfriendly shipping.

Frank

P.S. If you look at Chapelle's drawings of old workboats, shrouds tensioned with lashings through simple eyes were common on fairly large boats before we started rigging tall masts like they were fiddles.

[ 08-15-2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Frank E. Price ]

[Kim Whitmyre]

William, unfortunately the article you referenced is either renamed or unavailable at Classic Marine! What a wonderful site (it's on my favorites list) it is anywho. The article "Small is Beautiful," should be required reading for all boat owners.

Kim

[William R Roche]

Sorry Kim, the shortcut may have been a bit too short! Go to the articles on the Classic Marine site (http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/Artic...ce%20start.htm) and the data are in the "Backstays and Rigging Screws" article.
Cheers,
William.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

I just lost an hour in that classic marine site.. its awesome

[Gallus102]

I agree with Jim Conlin's post about using Precourt fittings and Vectran. I have an emergency back-up stay made up of 1/8 Ultrex spliced to the small Precourt fittings. The adjustability would let me use it as either a shroud or forestay. Splicing the single braid Ultrex is quite easy, but you MUST sew and whip the splices (DAMHINT). I'm carrying this on a Flying Scot that is raced regularly. Class rules do not allow me to use it in competition, but it gives me a light, easily stowed "Plan B". I have no reservations about its strength relative to the original metal fittings and SS wire. I did replace wire with Ultrex in some other highly loaded areas because it was easier to work with and there would be no more "meathooks".

I've now put a season of use on the following: outhaul, centerboard pennant, boom vang cascade, and mainsheet extender, All are holding up well--I mention this because the wear and tear on these would be far more abusive than in a standing rigging application.