sailboat for first build

[ShaiL]

Hi,

I want to build a sailboat.
I don't have boat building experience but I have done some wood projects.
I have recently read a lot about boat building and I think I can cope with it.
I have half a year weekend sailing experience.

The requirements from the boat:
* Sea boat.
* Preferably car-top.
* The boom should not be too low to allow me (1.77 m – 90 Kg) bend easily under it.
* Comfortable for two preferably four persons.
* Preferably having U shaped bench at the aft end.
* Capable for single handed.

Does anybody has suggestions ?

Thanks,
Shai.

[JimD]

Welcome to the forum, ShaiL. The cartop thing is not very feasable. Also, what do you mean by 'seaboat'?

[boatbuddha]

Just what Jim said, a cartopper with room for 4 is tough. Then again maybe your car is a lot bigger than mine.

[ShaiL]

thanks for your reply,

Understood, no cartop , then trailable.
By seaboat I mean a boat for the sea (as opposed to lakes).
As you see I am not familiar yet with the professional terms.

ShaiL

[JimD]

ShaiL, not meaning to sound picky, but the main difference between salt water and fresh water is that salt water is slightly more bouyant and possibly will rot your boat a little more slowly over time, depending on how you build it. So what kind of sailing do you want to do? Are you after a lightweight, fast racer? A roomier, more stable, but slower boat to relax in? Where will you sail it and under what wind and wave conditions? Strictly a daysailer or something to sleep in? A shallow draft centerboarder you can beach? Etc.

[Thorne]

Wecome to the Forum!

As you can see, you have to give us a LOT of specific information in order to get good answers back. To save having to tell us over and over, go to the USER CP link in the upper left and update your location.

I'll add to the list of questions: Budget limitations? Building & storage space ditto? Planning on aux power being a paddle, set of oars, or an outboard? Sailing offshore or local duckpond?

Best of luck!

[ShaiL]

Yes, it should be "A roomier, more stable, but slower boat to relax in" and
"A shallow draft centerboarder you can beach".
I thought about 10 to 13 feet boat and I assume this dictates the sea condition that the boat can be sailed in.
I prefer not to have a cabin as to simplify the building.

thanks.

[Woxbox]

How about a visual. Is this the sort of thing you have in mind?

[kenjamin]

Woxbox, that looks like Welsford's Houdini.

That's a lot of boat for 13'2".

Here's more pictures of it (I think):

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...hoto_album.htm

Great Boat!

[Dave Carnell]

NUTMEG which I designed by modifying Phil Bolger's FEATHERWIND from his book Small Boats will delight you and give you the most bang for the buck. It has been built and sailed all over the world. I sold the business to Thom Vetromile <http://smallboatforum.com/1_FSB/1fsb.htm>.

[JimD]

Yes, it should be "A roomier, more stable, but slower boat to relax in" and
"A shallow draft centerboarder you can beach".
I thought about 10 to 13 feet boat and I assume this dictates the sea condition that the boat can be sailed in.
I prefer not to have a cabin as to simplify the building.

thanks.

Progress! Another question: One sail, as in a catboat rig, or two sails such as a sloop or yawl? One sail is definetly easier to handle and there are many really nice little boats with only one sail. Two will give you more versatility, better performance. Here's a link to the dinghies of a favourite designer of mine, Paul Fisher. Lots to look at and think about: http://www.selway-fisher.com/quick_index_dinghies.htm

[johnw]

Where would you be using the boat? 13 feet is kind of small for four people. Since we're talking about trailering the boat, maybe you could go to 16 feet?

[JimD]

More questions: How complex a hull design are you considering? Very simple flat bottom slab sided plywood - which can still look very nice if you like that sort of thing - or at the other end of the spectrum strip planked/cold molded shapely round bilge, which could end up being considerably more time and effort.

[Rational Root]

This is worth a look.

I'm building a Glen L 14 it's taking ages since I only get a couple of hours a week....

https://www.boatdesigns.com/departments.asp?dept=12

The 15 might be better for 4 adults.

A nicely finished 15 looks like this

Go here, then the customer photos, archives, "G", and look for Glen L 15

Dave

[Chip-skiff]

As a first step, perhaps you could visit the places you intend to sail and take some photos of the boats being launched or sailing.

That would give you at least a rough idea of the sort of boat suitable for the local conditions. Which in turn will help eliminate quite a few popular designs from the running.

[kenjamin]

This boat, John Welsford's Sherpa actually meets the original design brief on calm days and at 85 lbs. it is car-toppable. If the reason for keeping the size small is for budget restraints then this might be a good choice.

Here it is sailing:

[ShaiL]

The Glen-L 14 looks nice although a little bit too big. But looking at the Glen-L designs, maybe the Bull's-Eye 11 Sloop rigged can meet my requirements. http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/bullseye.html .
What do you think ?


The Sherpa looks nice and easy to build and it can also be car topable, this is a real advantage for me ! It simplifies the transportation, and no need to hire a garage. Can it be Bermudan rigged ? Where can I find such a version, or how do I modify the sail ?

I just saw a post about building a Heron (11) dinghy http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70588
and the building blog: www.iwantaseaview.com/Heron
This is really a nice boat although a little bit heavy (140 lbs). What do you think about the Heron ?

Thanks

[johnw]

Tell us where you will be using the boat, what you will use it for, and what the conditions are like there.

[Woxbox]

That is a Houdini I posted. And I agree, four in that boat wouldn't sink it, but it would settle down beyond its intended lines, too. But for two it could be very sweet.

If you'll have four aboard, I'd think 16' or so would be minimum. A bit less for a beamy catboat. There's a pretty big difference between what can be made to work and what works out well for a pleasant afternoon on the water.

And cartopping isn't what it's cracked up to be. You still have a ton of gear to stuff into the car, and when you get home you've got to get the boat back off the car and put everything away. A new trailer for a small boat can be had for $500-$600 and saves a ton of trouble. Plus, on long trips you have a utility trailer to take along the kids' bikes or whatever. (The kids too?)

[sealover]

ShaiL, I'm in the same boat as you (pun always intended) -- I'm looking at first builds (possibly for a project next winter) -- something I can take in the back waters of the Chesapeake, fish out of, take the Mrs. for a cruise around the lake, and hopefully slide onto the roof of the station wagon. (a sturdy old Mercedes)

I'd also like to hang it from the garage ceiling. I cannot have boats or trailers parked outside of my house so if it can't be cartopped and strung from the rafters then I'd have to pay storage fees.
I'm a shop teacher by trade so I'm not scared of a little tricky woodworking, but I would like to see something resembling a boat after a few months of evenings in the garage.
I'd prefer one sail, and something with some sort of roof or cuddy cabin would be great, but not necessary. Even a canvas strung over part of it to keep the sun off the pale goddess (the Mrs.)
I'll be watching this thread closely for ideas. It's not cartoppable, but I'm just entranced by CLC's pocketship.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The enemy of small sailboats is weight. If the load gets to high the boat will sail like stink. Also packing folks into a sailboat is not recomended. There has to be room to move around to correct screw-ups to rigging, sails, and, maybe, to row if that is required. If you have people sitting shoulder to shoulder and you get becalmed on a hot day, far from shore you will not be attracting adherents to the sport.
Changing sails is not for the uninitiated. If you do it and change the "lead" (the offset between the center of effort on the sail and the center of lateral resistance on the hull) you may be altering some sailing characteristics of the boat which have to do with safety.

[JimD]

To cartop anything wider than a canoe you will need two strong people to get it up there. And I think those who are steering you towards bigger designs are giving good advice. You can't practically take the family sailing in an 11 foot boat in anything but the calmest flattest water. 13 feet would be the smallest I'd go for. Up to 16, maybe. If you like Glen-L there's the Glen-L 13:

[Woxbox]

I'd also like to hang it from the garage ceiling.

Of course this has been done by many. But how high is your garage ceiling? Most cars won't even fit into a garage with anything more than a kayak on the roof, and my wife discovered some years ago that our two kayaks on the roof will not fit into our garage.

What I'm getting is that to float even two people a boat requires a fair amount of bulk to it, and most garages aren't that big. Something like a sailing canoe with outriggers might work as cartoppable, ceiling storable and stable on the water, but that's reaching the limit of what's practical.

[Lewisboats]

Stevenson's Pocket Cruiser minus the cabin...14 ft lod, beamy and capacious...and an easy build.


http://www.stevproj.com/PocketYachts.html

[kenjamin]

You guys need to ask Ross Lillistone if he ever finalized the rig for his cartoppable Flint.

http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/

[ShaiL]

I see some differences between the Glen-L 11 and the Heron 11:
* Glen-L 11 is lighter 114 lbs. vs. 140 lbs. but in both cases you need two persons to lift it up.
* Heron's boom is higher which make a big difference for a guy of my size .
pictures can be seen here:
Glen-L 11 http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/dsn-bse.html
Heron 11 http://www.iwantaseaview.com/Heron/85.htm

Does the higher boom has a disadvantage? I understand that higher boom with same sail area is less stable but the Heron is heavier, which is more dominant ?

Thanks

[JimD]

I see some differences between the Glen-L 11 and the Heron 11:
* Glen-L 11 is lighter 114 lbs. vs. 140 lbs. but in both cases you need two persons to lift it up.
* Heron's boom is higher which make a big difference for a guy of my size .
pictures can be seen here:
Glen-L 11 http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/dsn-bse.html
Heron 11 http://www.iwantaseaview.com/Heron/85.htm

Does the higher boom has a disadvantage? I understand that higher boom with same sail area is less stable but the Heron is heavier, which is more dominant ?

Thanks

A sail higher up means a higher center of effort of the wind on the sail. Re which is more dominant would be dependent on many factors that would require some serious math. But that won't really matter as in a boat that size the determining factor is almost always where the crew sits in it. You seem determined to go for a smaller boat. It will be great fun for a solo sailer and maybe one crew. You will be disappointed if you try to put more people in it but that's been said already. Isn't the Heron a class boat? A club racer? I thought you did not want that sort.

[andrewe]

Given ShaiL's aparent lack of experience, I would not think that Welsford's boats are suitable as they are relativly complex (apart from the tenders). Selway Fisher use much easier building techniques, I would suggest the 14ft Coble as a seaworthy design. See the thread by Grand Crom, who built his in an admirable few week-ends. Car topping is not user-friendly in the size he needs.
A

[ShaiL]

thanks Jim,

Yes, I tend to build a smaller boat in my first build. I am also afraid of the commitment to find a parking near the beach, that larger boat would impose on me.
In any case I don't see it as my last build, I actually dream about building my yacht in the coming years (time will tell).
The argument against a 11 feet boat was: "You can't practically take the family sailing in an 11 foot boat in anything but the calmest flattest water"
Although it was not meant to take all my family (5 grown ups), after seeing some video clips on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...on+dinghy&aq=f) I think three of us would be able to row in it.
I am not fascinated from the speed of the Heron, I don't need it, what I do ascribe importance is stability. I don't have much experience, but it seems to me that the Heron is quite stable for an 11 feet 140 lbs. boat, isn't it ?

thanks.

[davebrown]

for some reason that i cannot divine, richard butz's weekend skiff gets little press on this forum. he has a very easy, very clear book which makes it almost idiot proof to build. it is a flat bottom sharpie of 15 or 16 ft., plywood, and can be set up for sailing. i built it as my second boat, and although i complicated it by overbuilding it, the process was very quick for a beginner like myself. as i recall he even includes building dimensions for mast and spar, although i didn't go that route at the time.

[switters]

for some reason that i cannot divine, richard butz's weekend skiff gets little press on this forum. he has a very easy, very clear book which makes it almost idiot proof to build. it is a flat bottom sharpie of 15 or 16 ft., plywood, and can be set up for sailing. i built it as my second boat, and although i complicated it by overbuilding it, the process was very quick for a beginner like myself. as i recall he even includes building dimensions for mast and spar, although i didn't go that route at the time.

Are you challenging me? Oh you said almost idiot proof.

SaiL, pick one, let us know, and start building. Design paralysis is the bane of the amateur builder. I went into the same for a year before I finally got started. Then it was easy to pick a practice boat. After that was done I feel incomplete without a project in the garage.

Good luck,

[davebrown]

re: idiot proof: i was referring to myself.

[johnw]

A Bolger Featherwind is 15' 6" and weighs about 130 lb. I'd say weight is more important than length when it comes to cartopping.

[switters]

no worries, if it wasn't for epoxy and thickeners I would be posting on the wooden sieve builders forum.

[leftish]

Penobscot 14 Arch Davis gives clear building instructions

[JimD]

thanks Jim,

Yes, I tend to build a smaller boat in my first build. I am also afraid of the commitment to find a parking near the beach, that larger boat would impose on me.
In any case I don't see it as my last build, I actually dream about building my yacht in the coming years (time will tell).
The argument against a 11 feet boat was: "You can't practically take the family sailing in an 11 foot boat in anything but the calmest flattest water"
Although it was not meant to take all my family (5 grown ups), after seeing some video clips on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...on+dinghy&aq=f) I think three of us would be able to row in it.
I am not fascinated from the speed of the Heron, I don't need it, what I do ascribe importance is stability. I don't have much experience, but it seems to me that the Heron is quite stable for an 11 feet 140 lbs. boat, isn't it ?


thanks.

I really don't know much about Heron but class boats are usually meant to be exciting and competative, which usually runs counter to stable. So I'm going to try one last time to talk you out of an eleven foot boat. If you're still hoping for car topable keep in mind that its easier to get a long, narrow boat on top of a car than a short wide one. For example a single person can easily get a 16 foot canoe or kayak on top of a car but might struggle mightily with an eight foot pram.

And a narrower boat isn't necessarily tippy if its long enough. This 15er from Karl Staumbaugh is only 150 pounds and would be just as easy to get on top of a car as a Heron:


Bay Skiff 15

Specifications:
Length: 15'-0"
Beam: 4'-3"
Draft: 0'-6" bd up; 2'-6" bd dn
Weight: 150 lbs
Sail Area: 67 sf
Power: 2-5 hp

How To Order

FAQ

Questions? Email Us

BAY SKIFF 15 versatile combination of sailing and rowing qualities. She is very easy to rig for sailing and is easy to handle by those learning the ropes. She is the right size for a family of two adults and two children. Construction is plywood and epoxy with just enough traditional details to make the project rewarding when finished. http://www.cmdboats.com/bayskiff15.h...54c199edd3da5b

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Got to get my favorite designer in there ,too.
Jacques Mertens at;
http://www.bateau.com/
His stuff is all fairly new designs in S&G. His Builders Forum (it's off line right now for a server change) lets you get right to the designer when there is a question. He even has a catagory for propective builders to ask questions about any design they are interested in.

Otter 16 - Study Plans
Specifications
Cost & Labor
Building Method
Right Click to download a scaled drawing
Skill Level
Plans Packing List
Options
More...
BOM

The requirements for the Otter 16 were simple: an able open rowing skiff with an auxiliary sail.
This had to be a row boat first.
A length around 16', lets us use long oars and is about ideal for a serious row boat, smaller skiffs do not have sufficient inertia to go through a chop. This size also provides sufficient seaworthiness and ample capacity for camping cruising or fishing.
The layout can be used for single or double rowing.
The sail is an auxiliary sail: small are and spars that can be stowed inside while rowing; the small daggerboard and rudder do not affect rowing performance.
Many excellent designs in that style exist, in particular the ones by Pete Culler and Atkins but are for traditional wooden boat building.
Designs for plywood or stitch and glue are rare, most of them are flat bottom or vee hulls with more drag than ideal and a shape that will slam in a chop. A more refined hull shape is the one we use on many of our sailboats and for our row boats like the Scilly Gig and Row13. That five panel hull shape is as close as you can get to a round bottom one.

Plans are only $65

[David G]

A Bolger Featherwind is 15' 6" and weighs about 130 lb. I'd say weight is more important than length when it comes to cartopping.

And, along the same lines - a very simple, lightweight skiff that sails wonderfully, rows well, and motors ok... (I'm surprised C'Chuck hasn't already mentioned it <G>)... the Goat Island Skiff, by Michael Storer:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html







Note that we cartopped ours for two years, but in the end, we bought a trailer... and are very glad we did.

[sealover]

So many neat links and drawings in this post, It'll take me a well-spent hour to get through them all! I'm not the original poster, but I chipped in on how I'm looking for something similar, but able to hang from the garage ceiling. Someone asked how tall my garage ceiling is -- it's 10' 3" and there's about 25' of it unobstructed by garage door tracks and things. Garage door is only 8' tall though. The factory roof rack on the wagon is just a tick under 5' off the floor. The rear crossbar on the wagon is 12" from where the roof drops off to the rear window. With some sort of rollers or something I'd really only have to lift one end of the boat at a time. I can put the front crossbar all the way forward (about the center of the driver's door) so the front and rear bars are 55" apart.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I aschew plain vanilla hull shapes. If it ain't dory style or veed it ain't on my wish list. Even my 8 foot pram is vee-bottomed.

[sealover]

Chuck, I'm new at this... Do Dory or Vees sail better? Look better? Build better? or are they just plain old better? (Opinions, of course) Me, I refuse to drink out of plastic cups, but we all have our nuances.

[David G]

sealover -

Actually, I was teasing C'Chuck because of his well known, oft-stated, irrational prejudices

Certainly, there are advantages to a dory hull... and disadvantages.
There are advantages to a v-bottom... and disadvantages.
There are advantages to a round bottom hull... and disadvantages
There are advantages to a sharpie hull... and

Well, you get the idea.

Did you happen to catch the Wooden Boat magazine article on Getting Started In Boats that addressed hull shapes? That'd be a good place to start, if you want to get the basics.

The search function might help you find previous discussions. I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the learned members hadn't layed it out clearly and concisely at some point.

There are books that'd serve, also.

Depends on how much research you want to do.

When it comes to picking a design, you might want to commit your list of desires to paper. Use this design brief to review some of the designs that've been suggested so far. Pick one to build, build it, and use it. It probably won't suit your needs perfectly. You might come to realize that you had needs that you hadn't thought of. You might find that the priorities have different weights than you originally thought. You'll really like your boat anyway, and enjoy it immensely, I suspect. When it comes time to build the next one, you'll be even better prepared to choose a design.


"Humankind cannot stand very much reality" -- T.S. Eliot

[sealover]

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I've never touched an actual issue of WoodenBoat. I've been meaning to buy one the next time I go to Border's books, but I try to avoid the place (for fear of the swarmy $7 coffee Prius-types) Probably should throw a couple bucks their way for letting me be in this truly useful (free) forum. The list-on-paper is a great idea. I've got my nose in a boat book just about every night (Blue Water is on the nightstand right now) Thanks!

[davebrown]

bay skiff 15 is very similar to the weekend skiff. you won't believe how versatile a boat like that can be--if you pay attention and get out there! i hvae several times looked at that otter design. the way the precut ply structure goes together might be a faster build than the bay skiff.

you will note very few people like your 11 footer idea, including myself. an 11 footer is already clumsy and heavy enough, and adding three or four feet isn't going to be that much worse to handle, but it makes a great deal of difference for your stated purposes.

[Rob Kearney]

Sealover,

Have you ever considered rigging a canoe for sailing? It would meet you car-topping and store in garage requirements.
I rigged up a tandem canoe with an Opti sail about 7 years ago as an "interim" solution until I could build a daysailor. Still no daysailor but I sail the canoe regularly. I sail mostly in the rivers off the northern part of the Chesapeake and it works great for a 2 or 3 hour sail. Being a cartopped craft also opens up a lot more launch opportunities around here.

- Rob

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Chuck, I'm new at this... Do Dory or Vees sail better? Look better? Build better? or are they just plain old better? (Opinions, of course) Me, I refuse to drink out of plastic cups, but we all have our nuances.

There must be some benefit because it's a lot easier to figure out and build a flat bottom. In very short sailboats speed is hard to come by. If reducing wetted area will get you .2 or .3 MPH more the effort to build a more complicated bottom to get that may be well worth the effort.
Thousands of years of sailing have weeded out stuff that doesn't work. Even tho' those long ago designer/builders didn't know zip about hydrodynamics they came fairly close, over time, to getting it right.
My D4 has a vee bottom because it was designed as a dinghy for a blue-water sailboat. The boat had to be anchored in deep water and a dinghy that could handle an occasional chop was needed so a vee bottom was part of the design. Whether or not the design sails better with the vee I don't know. There aren't enough loonies like me plugging around in 8' prams to make a valid comparison.

[James McMullen]

Do Dory or Vees sail better?

Honestly, for displacement hulls, round bottom boats sail the best of all. All of those other hullforms are out there for the purpose of trying to simplify the construction process. When boats truly needed as a high a performance as possible, such as in a whaleboat or a gig, only round bottomed designs made the cut.

But for a tiny boat like what you're talking about, I'm sure it barely matters. The fastest 11 footer is pretty damn slow compared to even a slow 18 footer. Pick the one that looks prettiest to you so you'll be inspired to get her finished.

[BarnacleGrim]

ShaiL, you really need to tell us where you are going to use the boat.

There's a nearly endless supply of good boat plans, but for our suggestions to matter in reality, your reality, we really need that piece of information.

[kenjamin]

I got an e-mail from Ross Lillistone regarding the sail rig for the Flint. He still has not finished it yet but it is in the works. The daggerboard box will add a little weight to the 110 lb. Flint but it still should be car-toppable especially if you utilize one of the devices that make car topping easier. One of these was shown in one of WoodenBoat's Small Boats special magazines.

The Sherpa would be lighter to cartop but would not row or sail nearly as well as the longer, v-bottomed Flint. However, there's always a market for a good tender so if you did a decent job on the Sherpa build, it might be easier to resale when the time comes for you to start on your second boat. That's my take on it.

Mr. Lillistone did attach to his e-mail three different drawings of sail rigs that he did recently for his First Mate design, but that boat would require a light trailer.

[alkorn]

One thing that I don't think anyone has touched on in this discussion is that a small boat's practical personnel capacity for sailing is a lot less than it is for rowing or outboard use.

In posts above, Kenjamin shows the Flint with four aboard motoring and David G shows the Goat Island Skiff with three + two kids aboard rowing.

If you tried to sail either of these boats with these crowds aboard you'd be falling all over each other every time you had to tack or jibe. It could be done, but it would take some real coordination.