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Thread: H28 Questions

  1. #1
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    Default H28 Questions

    Hi
    As everyone can see from my number of posts, I’m new around here, so I’ll give a bit of background by way of introduction before I go with questions.
    Last year, I finished a fairly long restoration of an H28. It’s an early one, built in 1947 on the East coast of the UK for an American then brought into British ownership in 1961.
    Purchased 1997, craned in next to my house, built a big shed around her, then spent ten very “interesting” years working on her. Some previous owner had fitted an enormous ugly cabin that just had to be rebuilt, most frames needed repair plus over 140 feet of planking were renewed, then new cockpit, all internals, engine, masts, rigging, sails etc etc etc.
    I know now, that this story is quite normal, an intended quick fix turning into a long money pit.
    But I enjoyed every minute of it and now I have a lovely boat set up for coastal cruising.
    Picture:





    No apologies for the spray-hood, very necessary in our cold rainy climate, though I do need to take more pictures with tidy ropes and fenders put away….

    Here in the UK, the weather has been very difficult, 2008 was either too much or too little wind, so I’m still learning how she handles.

    I have two queries, shroud tension, am I right in not having much tension on the main lower shrouds as any tension pulls the mast back at the spreaders and induces more fullness in the main.
    Then off wind there is a lot of twist in the main, I am tempted to try a kicker or vang to reduce the twist, but is this a dangerous option considering the long thin dimensions of the boom?

    In the event of better weather, I will try to get more pictures.

    Thanks – Richard

  2. #2
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Lovely, indeed. Welcome to the forum.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Nice looking boat,did the sailing experience provide the same satisfaction as the rebuild?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Nice looking boat,did the sailing experience provide the same satisfaction as the rebuild?
    In essence the answer is yes, but they are very different elements.

    On the one hand, as many here will do, I enjoy the design, craftsmanship, problem solving, research and all the other aspects of wooden boat renovation. Utimately though, for me anyway, it is all directed towards the end purpose of using and living with a craft that combines the original classic design with the stamp of ones own hand.

    The first sails after launch were quite nervous for me, had I done this right? or that right? but now I relax with more confidence and just enjoy the whole on-the-water sailing experience.

    That is not to say that I haven't had a few problems, but thats another story...

  5. #5
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    She looks a treat, Rich. Feel free to share reconstruction pics and stories. Jay will be along shortly to answer your questions.


    Steven

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Richard,
    Congratulations on a job well done and welcome to the forum. You look very comfotable and happy at the helm after all of that work. As you may already know, I own H28 #131, "Bright Star" which was built in Barcelona in 1960.

    In answere to your question about rigging tension, I might add this information to that of others.
    Contrary to modern beliefs concerning fiberglass and alluminum construction, rigging on a wooden boat should not be set up banjo tight. The upper shrouds should be set just tight enough to keep the mast in column when under sail. The uppers will stretch a little under load. And, the mast will compress slightly no matter how tightly the shrouds are tuned This means that the lowers should be tuned just tight enough to be loaded as that stretch and compression occurs. This also means that the lowers are not tuned quite as tight as are the uppers. Tuning rigging too tight on a wooden boat only strains the hull even to the point of breaking frames.
    Jay

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Looks great. I spent some time working on and sailing an H28 a few years ago. They are so very agreeable on the water.

    As to the mainsail, yes, you ought to have a vang to keep the boom from lifting, which of course is what allows the sail to twist. I don't believe the mainsail is so large that the forces on the vang will endanger the boom. But you've had your hands on that spar and I haven't. Certainly you can attach it in any number of ways to spread out the load, rather than use a simple bail on a bolt.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    I'm curious... if you had to do the rebuild, why did you keep the "enormous ugly cabin" instead of building the new one the way LFH drew it?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    I will comment that I have sailed many H28's that have raised deck houses and prefer the original as drawn by LFH. One main reason is that a raised deck house obscures clear vision ahead. And, I like to see here I am going or who is going to hit me.
    Jay

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Maybe the owner wanted his boat to be more practical and livable than the "lay flat on a pipe berth" approach that LFH proposes for below deck living.

    I deliberate this question every day I use my H-28s -and I have one of each, a raised cabin and an original.

    Rich TB put an incalculable amount of time and effort into this restoration- he and his supporters should be given full credit for the undertaking and for seeing it through.

    Welcome to the forum!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    [quote=Bob Cleek;2161336]I'm curious... if you had to do the rebuild, why did you keep the "enormous ugly cabin" instead of building the new one the way LFH drew it?


    A very very good question!
    As my design skills are miniscule compared to the super expert LFH,
    it was with great trepidation that I considered any cabin design other than his original.

    It rather came down to the "purpose" for which I was working on the boat, and a split between the words renovation and restoration.

    I have a very old friend who has rebuilt and restored an 1890's boat using only original materials and techniques, it is a wonderful craft that would grace any museum.

    That path was not for me; my objective was to renovate my H28 using sensible modern techniques and technologies to give me a lovely boat that my tall wife and I could take coastal crusing.

    Is it such a retrograde step? I know visability is not as good, and the lines are not LFH's, but I spent a huge amount of time drawing the outlines again and again with small adjusments. I did end up with less than 6ft headroom as that just would not fit or look right.

    Here is a better side view before she was craned out.




    There is no way I could improve on the original LFH design, but I do think what I have now is better than how she was when she arrived:



    I would be interested to know if there is a consensus, should I have taken the boat back to the original lines, or is it right to adjust the design to make it more fit for use, if done with care?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Just a quick reply to those comments regarding the debate between the original LFH cabin, and the new cabin with increased headroom.... I am the "tall wife" mentioned in one of Richard's last posts (10ft 10") and I for one am very glad of the extra height!

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Oop, typing mistake, read 5ft 10"!

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by RichTB
    I would be interested to know if there is a consensus . . .
    Not on this forum. Every boat is the product of compromises. It looks like you have made yours thoughtfully.

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Every man is intitled to create his own art. If it pleases him, that is all that matters. If it pleases others he is indeed blessed.
    Jay

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    I like what you did with the cabin and in no way find it enormous or ugly. The original on the other hand....
    My modified version of the H28 has the raised cabin as well. The headroom makes up for the visibility issues in my opinion. I would not say it is as pleasing to the eye as the lines LFH drew...but at some point function has to play into it.


    More pics are always appreciated.

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    It wasn't a criticism, just a question. I have a raised doghouse Vertue, as designed by Giles, who originally designed the boat with a coachroof. Both boat were designed during a transitional era when doghouses were coming into vogue. I don't believe LFH ever did design a doghouse for the H28, though.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    We believe that the boat was originally built to the correct spec back in 1947, but at some point a subsequent owner added the big square doghouse that you can see in the photograph of the boat when she was first delivered. We were told by the person from whom we bought her, that the previous owner was over 6ft in height and had arthritis, so he had made the rather unattractive (we thought!) modifications. The new doghouse is a compromise, but the visibility hasn't proved a problem as we always sail two-up, so the crew provides the eyes at the front of the boat. The extra headroom also makes the boat more comfortable for extended cruising.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Congratulations Rich on both the 10 year restoration of a beautiful ketch and maintaining your original "tall catch" to go enjoy the adventures that both will bring. Many have lost lost one to the other. You have truly had a successful restoration experience. Fair winds!
    Go Sailing!
    Lars

  20. #20
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Richard, welcome to the forum and congratulations on a lovely rebuild. I'd love to read more on your renovation exploits if you have time and photo's to make up a thread on the process.

    I'm where you were ten years ago, although with a hull that is in reasonably fine condition but a very tall and ugly cabin set up that I've stripped away.

    On the discussion of the raised/stepped cabin I think yours is just how it should be for that style, nicely done and sympathetic to the yacht. I've also been debating whether to rebuild a raised cabin with headroom or go back to the original "duck or grouse" design. In your case with the weather as it is, I would certainly be going for the comfortable cabin space requirement, likewise if I was further south in Australia. Where I am though the weather isn't such an issue and I’d expect to spend the majority of my time on deck and most “entertaining” would be in the cockpit.

    My thought at the moment therefore, having not yet started refitting, is that I can afford to go for the lower profile aesthetics, clear forward visibility and more useable deck space over the headroom capability.

    I am aware that there is some general feeling that the headroom is better for resale but in my own case I’m not too concerned about that aspect. If I do sell her I’d like someone to buy her because she appeals to them for what she is and how she is built/rebuilt.

    Here's mine then and now:





    Bye the way, where are you and what is the name of your H28?

    cheers
    Greg
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    I have a Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 Ketch, which is basically an H28 stretched by a few feet. and made of glass .

    anyway, they all have the raised cabin. and it doesn't look so bad. gotta say that I like the low cabin that Herreshoff drew, but at 6 feet tall I like being able to stand up inside.

    you make the boat into what suits your usage. RT, your boat look great.


    This isn't my boat, but its a good shot of the cabin...
    Last edited by BBSebens; 04-13-2009 at 11:37 PM. Reason: more info
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

  22. #22
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    I appreciate all the comments from everyone, and thankyou gentlemen for the replies regarding the rigging questions.

    Greg, I really wish you all the best with your renovation. Interestingly, I felt the oppposite when I planned my cabin, I assumed my boat would have less appeal if I went away form the original flat cabin.

    My boat's name is LIEVRE, as those with the knowledge will know is French for 'hare' (needs an accent though)

    I will put together a set of photos taken through the restoration and start a new thread.

    Just one last picture of LIEVRE ashore at Thornbury on the English side of the Bristol Channel.



    Finally a picture I couldn't resist, taken about 20 minutes after the side view, looking the other way.

    The Bristol Channel at low tide
    (where the tidal range here can be up to 35 ft).

  23. #23
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Richard,

    we're a bit late on some of our publications here in Oz but 'have just recognised LIEVRE in “another” publication and have enjoyed reading your interesting article on shed building. I have to say though, even sitting here in Darwin in 34degC, the photo of a snow clad shed in the Welsh countryside sent me looking for warmer clothing and a nip of whisky.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  24. #24
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Well, after all of that time, you certainly deserve some pleasurable sailing. I have only one comment which may be of no consequence. On our own H28 we do not have the athwart ships combing on the after end of the cockpit. This allows me to sit in that area without cramping the backs of my legs. We also have a cushion that fits on the after deck making it a comfortable lounging spot. I might add that I like your canvas dodger! I would imagin that heat from the cabin makes the cockpit cozy on cold days.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Larks - yes without that boatshed I would never have got anywhere near finishing. What I had to get use to though was the reaction of the local farmers who were much more interested in my shed than the boat!

    Jay - She looks really great, and I guess much more comfortable without any aft combing.
    You can see on the picture here that I have an inner combing that means its not too bad sitting sideways.
    This feature and the others were all as the original design was, including the toe rail and taff rail. (I minimised any design changes to the cabin and internal stuff).
    You will have seen on the original picture that the gooseneck on the main is a foot higher than the original design, that it as it was. The new main was cut to lift the boom over the doger and the mizzen cut the same.



    Just must add that this weekend we sailed 20miles up the channel in typical UK weather. 15/16 deg C (59/60 deg F) wind F5 gusting F7 , for once though just forward of the beam, lumpy typical short channel chop. managed 5 to 5.5 knots with small jib and mizzen only. Enjoyed every minute.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Richard, she looks even more lovely in that last photo, how about a few more pics?
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  27. #27
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Since this seems to be a thread sharing the various ways in which H28's have been finished, I thought to show the details of one that sails the Delaware. It belongs to a very nice man who performs the maintenance by himself.




  28. #28
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Classy yacht, Andrew!
    I have all sorts of questions for you, since I've just contracted to purchase an H-28.
    I'm studying your rigging photos and wonder what make/ source for your blocks and deck hardware?
    The previous owner used Harkin blocks that I will change off.

    But for more immediate stuff...
    How did you do the deck? Was it dynel?

    And, one more...
    What would you say is adequate for the iron breeze?
    We have tides that can run up to 6 or 7 knots, which can't be fought with much success,
    yet I wonder if the Yanmar 15 hp diesel is sufficient in making way under more usual conditions.

    Wonderful job, keep the photos coming!

  29. #29
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Oh I wish it were mine...I forget the name of the person who owns it. Those photos were taken at the wooden boat festival at the Independence Seaport Museum last summer. We believe it will be on display again this year for the event June 20-21.

    I hope it is there for my own interest in seeing it, but I'll try to get contact info for you if I can remember.

    Else, if you are looking for a reason to head to Philly, this show might be the reason...

  30. #30
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    The current engine in "Bright Star" is a 20hp Universal Diesel. If I were to need to re-power the boat, I would opt for the Yanmar as it is lighter and the boat does not need 20hp.
    The mizzen and main sheeting blocks were purchased from J.M. Reinik & Son as they are copies of Herreshoff Blocks with modern bearings in the sheaves. The rest of the halyard and sheeting blocks I made myself.
    Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by stevedwyer View Post
    Classy yacht, Andrew!
    I have all sorts of questions for you, since I've just contracted to purchase an H-28.
    I'm studying your rigging photos and wonder what make/ source for your blocks and deck hardware?
    The previous owner used Harkin blocks that I will change off.

    But for more immediate stuff...
    How did you do the deck? Was it dynel?

    And, one more...
    What would you say is adequate for the iron breeze?
    We have tides that can run up to 6 or 7 knots, which can't be fought with much success,
    yet I wonder if the Yanmar 15 hp diesel is sufficient in making way under more usual conditions.

    Wonderful job, keep the photos coming!
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-28-2009 at 11:40 AM.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Yes I know Jim Reineck's work. He's not too far away. He's got the bronze,
    herreshoff replica jib halyard blocks. There's also R&W Rope for English Braids dacron, Davey hardware and Ording blocks.

    I talked with a Yanmar dealer in Salem, MA who used to own an H-28.
    He says the QM15, probably the original 1977, is fully capable of moving the H-28 well.
    Also says it's a very good engine. Thinks the issue, if any, has to do with prop pitch and size.

    I'm just a little edgy since I don't have unlimited resources to deploy.
    There are always things you cannot forsee, some things maybe you can with the help of others.
    Thanks.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Steve, The Gori is not cheap! For that matter, none of the other folding and feathering props are. Geoff Prior at Gori was the guy that I delt with. He was very meticulus in matching the prop to the displacment of the boat as well as the engine and its torque curve. In order to get enough drive area from the blades, we cut down a larger prop. I am 100% satisfied with the results
    Here are some pictures of the Reinik's sheeting blocks as well as some of the custom halyard blocks I made up. If you wish to make your own, I have a few sheet bronze blanks left over.
    Jay



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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewdarius View Post
    Since this seems to be a thread sharing the various ways in which H28's have been finished, I thought to show the details of one that sails the Delaware. It belongs to a very nice man who performs the maintenance by himself.



    Great looking H-28. Noticed the stove stack. Any shots of the interior. And the stove/heater. PS Congrats to Steve on your H-28.
    Lars

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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Andrew, that is a very lovely H28.

    Steve, in regards to an engine for the H28, I've had two in LIEVRE,
    and Jay is exactly right about the H28's engine size.

    Part of the renovation was the rebuild of the original 22hp three cylinder engine.
    This, coupled with a three blade 14inch diameter, 10 inch pitch prop would drive her well over hull speed. The stern would squat down at full revs and get up to arround 7.5 knots.
    Then after about 40 hours of running, one windless day, mid Bristol channel, near springs, a valve broke.
    I might have been able to save the engine, but the crew said "look skipper" I knew we were in a 5.5 knot stream, but not that we were about 60 yards above a big channel buoy.
    I got the engine to run again just enough to clear the buoy then it stopped - big time.

    Decision here, to fix or replace. The original was a big heavy lump, right where the H28 does not need weight, also in normal use, it never went above half throttle - not good in the long term for a diesel.

    So I replaced that engine with a new 14hp with a 14 by 8 prop.

    This gives me 5 knots at 2000rpm and 6.5 knots at full throttle, in sheltered flat water. In rough conditions I can expect 5.5 to 6 knots.
    Plus the new unit is 135lbs lighter.

    I hope this helps, good luck with your decision.

    Richard

    PS if its a new engine and prop, don't stop there replace everything, coupling, gland, stern tube and shaft. I didn't - then had to!!

  35. #35
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    Default Re: H28 Questions

    Rich,
    Ten years of beautiful work and now the enjoyment, she looks great dockside and under sail. Impressive!
    I'm just now starting to plan how, exactly to proceed with Ariel, an H-28 built in 1977.
    If I could find a carvel planked H-28, I would prefer it. Ariel was strip-planked and sheathed.
    I'm a little concerned she may be heavier as a result, but structurally she seems sound enough.
    The trouble may come later when and if I have to grind down to bare wood.

    Jay, I'm studying your well-crafted rigging details and would love to refit. I need a full set of Herreshoff's plans as soon as I can get them from Mystic.
    In your third photo, are those halyard rope to wire blocks? And in your second, it looks like you've raised your jib halyard block to the stays?
    I'll have to take close inventory!

    I don't expect anything to be cheap, just don't want to be jeeze (?#***) didn't see that one coming!
    These H-28s in the photos give a level of class and function I aspire to. Please keep 'em coming!

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