New Build consideration: Caledonia Yawl or Calendar Island Yawl

[DavidD]

I'm looking for thoughts on how these two designs compare. Here's how I arrived at these two options:
1) available as a kit
2) large enough to hold a family of 4 with the occasional guest.
3) Able camp boat for Maine Island trail
4) easy to rig and launch from a trailer
5) Yawl - since I like them.
6) sail with motor backup and oars a secondary consideration

The Caledonia Yawl meets all these needs as does Clint Chase's Calendar Island 18. While the CI 18 does not have many completed examples out there, Clint Chase is very responsive when I have spoken to him. The CI 18 kit is likely more complete than what is available for the Caledonia. My impression is that either design can be built with some buoyancy, but also either design would be difficult to right if out in the conditions that had caused a capsize in the first place.

That brings me to a third option - the Core Sound 20. The core sound 20 seems to meet my criteria and is available as an open and a cabin version. (ok, it's not a yawl, but it is double masted). They are water-ballasted, self righting options for either. It's not an attractive vessel to my eye, but I haven't seen one in person. I'm not sure if they are made for the rough waters of New England.

Does anyone have thoughts on how the Caledonia and the CI 18 might compare in terms of sailing craft? or the CS 20 for that matter? Ideally I'd like something fast, dry, that's not tender. Having young kids, the ability to rescue, or even self right is desirable. But maybe this is like asking for an off-road minivan that can race at Daytona. I do have some old boat building experience, but it's been a while.

Open to thoughts. Thanks

[Edward Pearson]

Vivier Ebihen 16 clinker yawl kit...





Superb pictures of one here..

https://conservatoire-maritime.com/c...ion-de-lagile/

Stiff, kitable, yawl, waterballast, recoverable, correct design displacement for 4 and decent freeboard. The inboard outboard prop infront of the rudder arrangement you want. It's not just a case of cutting a well, the aft skeg/ lateral area has to be arranged for it.

[Chris249]

I'm looking for thoughts on how these two designs compare. Here's how I arrived at these two options:
1) available as a kit
2) large enough to hold a family of 4 with the occasional guest.
3) Able camp boat for Maine Island trail
4) easy to rig and launch from a trailer
5) Yawl - since I like them.
6) sail with motor backup and oars a secondary consideration

The Caledonia Yawl meets all these needs as does Clint Chase's Calendar Island 18. While the CI 18 does not have many completed examples out there, Clint Chase is very responsive when I have spoken to him. The CI 18 kit is likely more complete than what is available for the Caledonia. My impression is that either design can be built with some buoyancy, but also either design would be difficult to right if out in the conditions that had caused a capsize in the first place.

That brings me to a third option - the Core Sound 20. The core sound 20 seems to meet my criteria and is available as an open and a cabin version. (ok, it's not a yawl, but it is double masted). They are water-ballasted, self righting options for either. It's not an attractive vessel to my eye, but I haven't seen one in person. I'm not sure if they are made for the rough waters of New England.

Does anyone have thoughts on how the Caledonia and the CI 18 might compare in terms of sailing craft? or the CS 20 for that matter? Ideally I'd like something fast, dry, that's not tender. Having young kids, the ability to rescue, or even self right is desirable. But maybe this is like asking for an off-road minivan that can race at Daytona. I do have some old boat building experience, but it's been a while.

Open to thoughts. Thanks

Ummm, if you've got young kids wouldn't the ability to rescue - and rescue easily, of not self right easily - be absolutely essential?

Judging from yardsticks, the ancient Wayfarer and Salcombe Yawl would be likely to be faster than the boats you mentioned, if I recall correctly. Something like the I550, while neither atttractive to your eye or a yawl, would possibly be significantly safer and faster, and there are quite a few similar boats.

[WI-Tom]

I'm not overly familiar with either design you mentioned, but I think they're both great boats (I did get to sail the prototype of Clint's Calendar Islands Yawl 16' version, and really liked it). But this:

"hold a family of 4 with occasional guest"

Hmm...

That's a lot of people for a small boat. Yes, the Caledonia Yawl is a BIG small boat, but it's still a small boat.

Can you fit that many aboard? I'm sure you can; I could probably do that even in my much smaller Alaska. Would those people enjoy it? Doubtful. Would I enjoy it?

I don't think so--maybe if the other 4 were keen sailors as well, and knew where to sit and when to move, and how to lend a hand now and then. But do consider the actual enthusiasm of your likely co-participants. If they are anything like most of my friends and family, they might be happier if you leave them ashore! (And so might you...)

I may be an outlier in my thinking, though.

Tom

[Christopher Morgan]

I may be an outlier in my thinking, though.

Tom

Outlier or no, I'd bet Tom is right.

Here is what I would do if I wanted to take a family of four on MIT adventures: build (or buy) two smaller boats.

It takes a special person to enjoy being a passenger on a small boat for an extended period. The primary fun is the sailing, and on a small boat there is not much for four people to do sailing-wise. Nor is there room to lounge, read, sip tasty drinks, etc. With two boats, you get more room, and more importantly, more active involvement.

As it happens, a pair of ads for wooden Bluejays was just posted that seems a good fit for your situation, provided building from scratch isn't essential:
https://maine.craigslist.org/boa/d/p...219200123.html
https://maine.craigslist.org/boa/d/p...219219032.html

00101_eSW4x79NK3T_0CI0t2_1200x900.jpg

[DavidD]

Thanks for all the feedback. My thoughts on more than 4 humans were more for using the boat as a motor launch. I realize sailing the boat becomes basically impossible with that many aboard.

The Ebihen is a great option. The water ballast is appreciated. The thought of sourcing a steel centerboard is a bit daunting, although I can see how that would do wonders for stability. It does look a bit more work to rig given its bowsprit and jib, but then the ability to sail under mizzen and jib is appealing.

The kids are a bit young for sailing their own boats - the economics of buying a used boat certainly win out - and there is no shortage of things to work on if the mood strikes. I'm not ruling out buying a boat if the right one happens along.

So many choices. Does anyone have any thoughts on the recoverability of a Caledonia yawl once capsized? Or on the decked vs open versions?

[Hugh MacD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ZcVL1ag_Tzg There are a couple of capsize tests on Youtube. The one showing a Sooty Tern, the guy righted by himself.

[Matt young]

For fast and roomy, I would go with the Core Sound 20. The wide transom gives you more room and speed than the CY, and it’s bigger than the CIY. I think it might be faster to build too, with his Butterfly fold up technique.

CS 20 LOA 6’-3” beam
CIY 15’-6” LOA 5’-2” beam
CY 19’-6” LOA 6’-4” beam

[timo4352]

There is an 18 foot Ebihen also.

[Thorne]

I've been actively sailing my Caledonia Yawl "Goblin" for several years and it seems like it would meet your requirements, including the number of passengers when motoring or sailing in very light air. That said, the CY is a pig to row, which is why the designer made a number of very similar boats that are a foot narrower but nearly as long.

I prefer having no bulkheads or flotation, as that allows me to lay the 2.5hp outboard down on fitted cleats at an angle between the motor well and mizzen mast base. If you build a rear deck / compartment you'll have to either store the outboard clamped in the well (meaning it drags the prop when sailing AND you can't beach it even with a short shaft outboard) or laying down in the middle of the cockpit floor. Remember that 4-stroke outboards MUST be stored in one of two positions, usually controls or arm down, or you'll ruin the cylinders with oil leaks.

5 adults on Big Lagoon, Ca.

[seasnail]

Ideally I'd like something fast, dry, that's not tender. Having young kids, the ability to rescue, or even self right is desirable.

I haven't sailed any of these boats, but I think the Core Sound would be a lot less tender than the Caledonia Yawl due to the hull shape.

The core sound is also decked over and has buoyancy under the seats, which means the boat takes on a lot less water after a capsize. In the video of the caledonia yawl capsize (someone posted the link above) you can see the dad can barely get back in without submerging the gunwale, and after getting in the kids wait in the water while he bails the boat. Hardly an ideal situation.

In the core sound 17 video below the boat sits high in the water when capsized and after righting. Both crew get in and don't bother bailing until they're under way. I imagine the 20 footer would be similar.



John Welsford has some suitable designs but I don't think they come in kit form. If you feel like being a guinea pig you might also consider building a Salmo 18. You'd have to buy the CNC files and find someone with a router to cut your panels.

http://www.salmoboats.com/projekty-l...ow/salmo-18-t/

[Chris249]

I've been actively sailing my Caledonia Yawl "Goblin" for several years and it seems like it would meet your requirements, including the number of passengers when motoring or sailing in very light air. That said, the CY is a pig to row, which is why the designer made a number of very similar boats that are a foot narrower but nearly as long.

I prefer having no bulkheads or flotation, as that allows me to lay the 2.5hp outboard down on fitted cleats at an angle between the motor well and mizzen mast base. If you build a rear deck / compartment you'll have to either store the outboard clamped in the well (meaning it drags the prop when sailing AND you can't beach it even with a short shaft outboard) or laying down in the middle of the cockpit floor. Remember that 4-stroke outboards MUST be stored in one of two positions, usually controls or arm down, or you'll ruin the cylinders with oil leaks.

5 adults on Big Lagoon, Ca.

What happens in capsizes with no buoyancy?

[Matt young]

I like side decks and flotation. The video of the sooty Tern capsize test is a good one, it shows the need for a boarding strap of some kind, like the one Welsford and Rice have developed.

[Chris249]

Granted he was in a rough water and that can be really difficult in any boat, but that's when it happens.

Well said. One can well argue that a capsize test in easy conditions isn't really a test at all. As an analogy, just about anyone can re-right and re-board a Laser in the conditions of the video above, but a surprising number of people can't do it easily in 20+ knots and chop.

There's also a huge amount of practise that makes perfect in capsizes. To use the Laser analogy again, a good Laser sailor will often capsize and recover without getting wet, but an average one will end up wet and tired in the same circumstances. Back In The Day when Aussie 16 Foot Skiffs didn't self bail well, the standard "bucket" was a very shallow one and you were expected to move so quickly that you had two scoop-fulls of water flying in the air at all times. It was a maximum effort for a teen or young man, and you had to learn how to brace yourself etc to do it properly. As another example, two or three people can right an 18 Foot Skiff or Formula 18 cat, which have had rigs of 30ft or more in height, but there is fitness and technique involved.

If you have a boat that is hard to re-right, how often will you get to practise in moderate conditions? If you don't do that, how can you know you'll be safe in the conditions you are more likely to capsize in?

[WI-Tom]

Do I have this story right? James capsized his Sooty Tern and had to be rescued by the Coast Guard, because he could not recover. Granted he was in a rough water and that can be really difficult in any boat, but that's when it happens. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.

You are quite wrong, actually! James recovered from his capsize without assistance; his boat was upright and he was busy bailing when the Coast Guard arrived to give him a tow, which he gladly accepted. I believe his boat was lying nicely in control, mizzen hoisted and head to wind, when they arrived. And that was in very challenging conditions.

Tom

[Matt young]

You are quite wrong, actually! James recovered from his capsize without assistance; his boat was upright and he was busy bailing when the Coast Guard arrived to give him a tow, which he gladly accepted. I believe his boat was lying nicely in control, mizzen hoisted and head to wind, when they arrived. And that was in very challenging conditions.

Tom

ok good, thanks for the correction.

[Ben Fuller]

The Calendar Island yawl is substantially smaller than the Caledonia; Clint may be doing an 18' version. You should call him and see where that project is. I don't know about self rescueability. Shorter than either but very capacious is the Vivier Ilur.

A friend is working on improving the self rescueabilty of his Caledonia. He is pretty sure he is going to need to add tanks. Steve Stone at Off Center Harbor has done a video on adding an outboard bracket to his. As I recall it is electric but I could be wrong.

The Core Sound is a substantially bigger boat than either of the ones under consideration. It has a good record in doing Everglades Challenges and has been designed with self rescue in mind. I think it can also handle an outboard

[Woxbox]

For safety, the Core Sound hands down. It's a different class of boat.

cajune-boats-flathead-lake__11445.1581195579.jpg

[Scott de M]

How about John Welsford's 6 meter whaleboat? Same length as the CY but add another foot of beam so much more room and you get a bowsprit and jib to play with. I bet you could sleep 4 on it and it is just so salty looking.

[Ben Fuller]

For safety, the Core Sound hands down. It's a different class of boat.

cajune-boats-flathead-lake__11445.1581195579.jpg

Nice Core Sound with an outboard. Rowing is way down the list of features on these designs. Core Sound 17 has also done Everglades, and would be more like what the OP originally had in mind.

[pez_leon]

The thought of sourcing a steel centerboard is a bit daunting, although I can see how that would do wonders for stability.

I wrote to Mr. Vivier about substituting a timber centerboard into his Stir Ven 19, which calls for a monster of a steel board (something like 200 kg). I was surprised by how positive he was. He said the performance penalty of the wood board would be low, and would only be apparent moving to windward in a strong wind. Like the Ebihen 16 the Stir Ven 19 is a water ballasted hull.

I'm currently building a Seil 18 and think it'll be great fun while my boys are little. I have also been daydreaming about sailing trips once everyone is older and bigger, and I think that multiple small boats are probably the ticket. I can already tell that my older son will have no patience for my ideas and will want to helm, trim, crash, sink, and recover his boats for himself - just like the rest of us.

So many choices. Does anyone have any thoughts on the recoverability of a Caledonia yawl once capsized? Or on the decked vs open versions?

Good on you for thinking ahead to self-rescue. The short answer is that there are plenty of examples of Caledonia Yawls and other Oughtred double-enders that seem very capable of self rescue. All of them include sealed buoyancy tanks - they're what you're calling the decked version, with carefully made (and tested) sealed bulkheads.
The challenge is bridging the gap between "seeming" ready for self rescue and being proven ready for self rescue. When I was considering the Caledonia Yawl I looked hard but found only very few reports testing self-rescue in challenging circumstances. As you can see in the videos on this thread, those without sealed side tanks come up very full of water and with very little freeboard. Side tanks eat valuable space and should be carefully designed so as to not contribute toward turtling in a capsize. I am sure that it's possible to design this "just right" - but I'm not sure that I can do it. It's nice to have a design that takes this into account.

[WI-Tom]

Good on you for thinking ahead to self-rescue. The short answer is that there are plenty of examples of Caledonia Yawls and other Oughtred double-enders that seem very capable of self rescue. All of them include sealed buoyancy tanks - they're what you're calling the decked version, with carefully made (and tested) sealed bulkheads.
The challenge is bridging the gap between "seeming" ready for self rescue and being proven ready for self rescue. When I was considering the Caledonia Yawl I looked hard but found only very few reports testing self-rescue in challenging circumstances. As you can see in the videos on this thread, those without sealed side tanks come up very full of water and with very little freeboard. Side tanks eat valuable space and should be carefully designed so as to not contribute toward turtling in a capsize. I am sure that it's possible to design this "just right" - but I'm not sure that I can do it. It's nice to have a design that takes this into account.

Yes, some of those videos don't look too encouraging. Then again, if I'm remembering correctly, James's Sooty Tern doesn't have side tanks, and he self-recovered in challenging conditions without much trouble. I suppose that may be because the Caledonia Yawl has so much more volume to take water aboard in a capsize?

Tom

[timber_cruiser]

A lot of good discussion about the merits of the different options to consider. Just a few thoughts based on my experience with my Caledonia Yawl. I have the open cockpit version with motor well. I have a combination of side and fore/aft buoyancy bags to provide flotation. When I use the boat for camping/cruising, I may replace some of these with large waterproof gear bags.

I have done several capsize and recovery tests under controlled conditions to make sure I can recover by myself if needed. I have been able to bail the boat quickly with a combination of a 5 gallon bucket and high volume bilge pump powered with a gell cell battery which I secure to the front of the center board truck (makes good ballast). You can move a lot of water with a 5 gallon bucket if you are motivated!

I have not had to recover from a capsize under challenging conditions. I sail on high elevation reservoirs which can bring sudden strong and shifting winds.

Pez, I enjoyed your latest post about sailing on the Spicer Meadow Reservoir which is around 7,000 ft elevation!

The main advantage of a Yawl rig is the ability to use the mizzen to hold the boat safely into the wind while you deal with setting a reef or manage gear. I have found this to be a real life saver at times!

The Caledonia Yawl has a poor reputation for rowing, which I think is a bit harsh. I find it really depends on how much weight you have in the boat and wind conditions.

I posted a thread on my experience in rowing:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Caledonia-Yawl

The thread also shows some pictures of my boat with the flotation bags.

[Clinton B Chase]

FYI the Calendar Islands 18 is shipping
It will sail circles around a Caledonia


note: I am helping this customer rig the lug better...boom is too low in photo.

[Ben Fuller]

It looks like Clint's Calendar Island 18 is a product. Needs info on the web page. From the design study I see fore and aft tanks, probably not as much floatation as the Core Sound series. The transom would make adding an outboard, maybe electric easier than the Caledonia. Clint: need to get some dope on the web site. From the perspective of the OP who lives not far away from Clint, there is advice to be had and with a pickup truck a lot of savings on shipping.

[John Meachen]

A lot of good discussion about the merits of the different options to consider. Just a few thoughts based on my experience with my Caledonia Yawl. I have the open cockpit version with motor well. I have a combination of side and fore/aft buoyancy bags to provide flotation. When I use the boat for camping/cruising, I may replace some of these with large waterproof gear bags.

I have done several capsize and recovery tests under controlled conditions to make sure I can recover by myself if needed. I have been able to bail the boat quickly with a combination of a 5 gallon bucket and high volume bilge pump powered with a gell cell battery which I secure to the front of the center board truck (makes good ballast). You can move a lot of water with a 5 gallon bucket if you are motivated!

I have not had to recover from a capsize under challenging conditions. I sail on high elevation reservoirs which can bring sudden strong and shifting winds.

Pez, I enjoyed your latest post about sailing on the Spicer Meadow Reservoir which is around 7,000 ft elevation!

The main advantage of a Yawl rig is the ability to use the mizzen to hold the boat safely into the wind while you deal with setting a reef or manage gear. I have found this to be a real life saver at times!

The Caledonia Yawl has a poor reputation for rowing, which I think is a bit harsh. I find it really depends on how much weight you have in the boat and wind conditions.

I posted a thread on my experience in rowing:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Caledonia-Yawl

The thread also shows some pictures of my boat with the flotation bags.

I hope you enjoy your boat and it is a fine looking design.What raises my concern is the controlled conditions in which you did your capsize recovery.When you really,really need to recover from a capsize it won't be in carefully controlled conditions-what happens than has significant consequences.

[timber_cruiser]

Hi John, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I hope I did not convey that I only know how to recover under controlled conditions. The point I was trying to make is that it is important to practice capsize and recovery so you know something about your boat's flotation, balance and waterline.

I try to practice capsize and recovery alone and often with my family, on a warm sunny day, it is a great way to clean the bilge! More importantly, we know what to expect from our boat because we sail under a variety of conditions, including strong shifting wind conditions.

The key common thread with most of the designs mentioned in this thread is the Mizzen. This is the safety valve in my opinion. Learning how to use the Mizzen to control balance, helm control, and perhaps most importantly how to hold safely into the wind, including during recovery is key.

I don't pretend to be an expert, just wanted to share what I have experienced.

I am not trying to advocate one design over another, and would not be able to sail circles around another design mentioned above, all of which are very capable.

[Matt young]

FYI the Calendar Islands 18 is shipping
It will sail circles around a Caledonia


note: I am helping this customer rig the lug better...boom is too low in photo.

That looks great!

[Clinton B Chase]

Clint: need to get some dope on the web site. From the perspective of the OP who lives not far away from Clint, there is advice to be had and with a pickup truck a lot of savings on shipping.

I know! There isn't enough time in the day! The Cal-18 has side bench floatation, too. It has excess so it'll float internal ballast, too.

[WI-Tom]

Ooh, I like that 18' version, Clint! (Of course, I liked the 16' version too, but I think I'd appreciate the extra room for cruising in the 18'). Well done!

Tom

[Edward Pearson]

A sighting of the Cal-18 unicorn!

[WI-Tom]

Looks to be moving along nicely!

Tom

[DavidD]

Thanks again for all the info. I have been thinking long about recoverability. I agree that most of the tests of the Caledonia Yawl and it's cousins don't tell much since its one thing to demonstrate it in calm conditions and quite another when your safety depends on it. I'm very pleased to see a completed CIY 18 afloat.

Sadly, I'm not a great deal closer to making a decision, although perhaps the Caledonia is lower on the list given it's reported sailing abilities and the added work/loss of space once flotation is taken into consideration.

[Scott de M]

perhaps the Caledonia is lower on the list given it's reported sailing abilities and the added work/loss of space once flotation is taken into consideration.

Are you referring to a perceived loss of space from built in flotation? Having owned a Caledonia Yawl with and without built in storage/flotation, I can say that with the built in storage/flotation, the boat feels twice as big. Without it, it always felt like a garage sale with gear everywhere and underfoot. With it, it is spacious with all permanent gear safely stored, camping gear in designated bins and every crew member with their own "closet". And it is not that hard to build. Just my thoughts, no matter which design you choose, consider built in storage.

Scott

[WI-Tom]

Are you referring to a perceived loss of space from built in flotation? Having owned a Caledonia Yawl with and without built in storage/flotation, I can say that with the built in storage/flotation, the boat feels twice as big. Without it, it always felt like a garage sale with gear everywhere and underfoot. With it, it is spacious with all permanent gear safely stored, camping gear in designated bins and every crew member with their own "closet". And it is not that hard to build. Just my thoughts, no matter which design you choose, consider built in storage.

Scott

Scott,

it's always interesting to see divergent informed perspectives and preferences. My own take on the compartments for storage vs. open boats is quite opposite (though no more inherently "correct") from yours.

I find it much more convenient to use lashed-in dry bags for stowing gear. That way, when you arrive at camp, you simply carry 2 large bags ashore, rather than having to pull gear out of multiple compartments with (often) small hatches in (sometimes) inconvenient spaces. Then too, the bags displace a lot of water, which itself adds to safety and ease of recovery, just as sealed compartments do.

Lots of ways to do things!

Tom