Questions about plans?

[nic_diggler]

I am looking to build a small sailboat this year. I have been really interested in the 15' Minuet. I can find pricing on everything(I think) but the lumber. I know lumber prices are always subject to change. I guess my question is, What price range would it cost to build a basic 15' Minuet? Before I get started I need to know where to start financially. I know I can get things like a sail, later down the road. I would like to build it in my spare time and spend 5-10 hours , but I am sure it will become my new hobby.

Also, thanks for any help or tips you can give this amateur!!

[wharf rat]

Ah...young grasshopper, you ask lots of questions.

I'm not familiar with the Minuet, but how much/price range is a very open ended question. One which I can't answer, btw. But I'll ask some questions...then you answer.

To what standard of quality do you want to build your boat? Bright, Bristol shipshape, lots of varnished wood, show winning boat; or heavily used painted workboat knockabout? Do you want to use the highest quality (ply)woods and the rarest of mahogany's and teak, or is cheaper ply and doug fir good enough? How are your scrounging abilities? Do you have to pay full retail because you live in an area where there's no place to get boat building lumber at a more reasonable price? So many questions with so many different answers...but the brighter the shine the more it's gonna' cost.

My observations are: read every post on building you can in this forum, whether its a 10' pram or a 100' yacht. There are tricks to be learned from everyone about doing it better and more often than not, cheaper--whatever the job may be. Learn to scrounge. There's no need to buy all of your lumber in one trip--you can't use it all in one big push anyways.

Too, you often don't want to know the finished price on a boat build project because if you did you probably wouldn't start to begin with. It's like the old saw: how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. How do build a boat? One stick at a time. Taken in small bites, hopefully the build will be affordable. Don't build with the intention of saving money, because you probably wont.

5-10 hours: a day, a week, a month? Spread over a time period--a month, a year, a decade--the cost of materials is probably not the big issue it may seem at the beginning. Again, you don't need everything, even wood, up front.

And finally, whatever figure you do come up with, double it. Just kidding . Add at least 50% tho..

have fun!

[keyhavenpotterer]

This minuet?



http://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=459

Brian

[JimD]

Welcome to the forum, nic diggler. If its the Glen-L Minuet a very comprehensive list of materials is provided on the website including fasteners and epoxy. Just price those items and see what you come up with. And if you have a small outboard you can motor the basic hull around and add sails, rigging, etc., later.

[nic_diggler]

That's the boat. I guess I need to order the plans and go from there. I live in West Michigan, so materials shouldn't be too hard too get. I plan to keep costs down as much as possible, So I'm sure I can live without the most expensive woods and random things, like a clock. Basically, I just want to get one built and ready for sailing minus the fancy looks. I can do that stuff later. Thanks for the help so far.

[nic_diggler]

Another quick question, could someone guide me to some more trailerable sailboats to build? I like this one because it is small and has a cabin. A cabin is a must for me.

[paladin]

If you are very careful in your purchases, use marine ply (fir), and shop for the cheapest resin, like RAKA or similar, you should be able to built the hull for about 1600 bucks....maybe 24oo if you're not so careful with your money....and that is wood, glass, resins and paint. Fully finished, less your labor, but with the steel centerboard, spars and sails you can expect about 4500 bucks or if your sloppy with expenses maybe $6500....that's no trailer or outboard....no tools, no shop and no beer. That's current U.S. type figures that I'll use.....or I could build it in Thailand for half that and spend the rest of the money in shipping costs and go sailing in 60-90 days.....but that's spending the money all at once....DIY and you spend a few bucks at a time and have the joy of nicking your fingers and getting high on the paint, cursing at the cat (or dawg) and sweeping the garage.

[BarnacleGrim]

I have Minuet plans myself, but I encourage you to have a look at http://www.selway-fisher.com/PocketC.htm as well as http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/s...OCKETSHIP.html

[JimD]

Another quick question, could someone guide me to some more trailerable sailboats to build? I like this one because it is small and has a cabin. A cabin is a must for me.

There are dozens of small trailerable sailboats with cabins. I built a Minuet and now dearly regret having not gone for her bigger sister, Tango, or similar size by another designer. So I'd strongly urge you to look at designs that have comfortable sitting headroom above the settees. Minuet does not have that. Its strictly crawling around room in Minuet's cabin.

[BarnacleGrim]

Yes, I'm glad I realised this myself before I actually started building mine. And keep in mind that these are light displacement boats, be careful so you don't capsize!

The Tango is nice, and I also quite like the Fancy Free sharpie from Glen-L.
Chesapeake Marine Designs also has this very attractive 24' lug yawl if you're willing or able to go that far in size. I can imagine an unstayed lug rig being a lot more easy to assemble than a marconi rig!

[David G]

Another thought. Welsford's Penguin:

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/penguin/index.htm

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/penguin/index.htm

[keyhavenpotterer]

I think John Welsford's Fafnir might fit your requirements. Small, tough, cabin, low towing weight, small size build space.
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/fafnir/index.htm

[jerry bark]

you live in west michigan as do I. I have some good wood sources for locally sawn materials. be in touch if i can help out with finding wood, or in some other way.

cheers
jerry

[Thorne]

The bottom line is this: anything under 20' or so with a cabin will be a serious compromise in space, stability, windage, etc.

If you MUST have a cabin, go with the above recommendations for a larger boat than the 15' LOD Minuet. But if you just sorta think that a cabin would be nice on a boat used 80-90% for short daysailing trips, I'd rethink the requirement and plan on tent camping.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Another quick question, could someone guide me to some more trailerable sailboats to build? I like this one because it is small and has a cabin. A cabin is a must for me.

Check out Jacques Mertens designs. All his stuff is of a much more recent vintage than what Glen-L offers. And if you have problems there is a large web site where the designer(s) answer questions on a daily basis.
Plans at;
http://www.boatplans-online.com/
Builder forums at;
http://209.190.4.227/forum/

I'm with Thorne. Small sailboats with cabins are cute but don't offer that much in benefits over their open topped brethern.

[JimD]

The bottom line is this: anything under 20' or so with a cabin will be a serious compromise in space, stability, windage, etc...

Forgive my strong language, but that's baloney.

[Thorne]

Just my experience, not speaking from any Godlike position. I really like small open boats under 18', but when you glom a cabin on 'em there seems to be so many compromises made that is often isn't worth it.

One big compromise is cockpit space -- and to me that's what sailing is all about. When you, your crew and guests spend 90%+ of your time in the cockpit, it seems foolish to limit that space so you can have a cabin that rarely gets used.

My San Juan 21 had sitting space in the cabin, but without a poptop you couldn't get above a hunched-over stance -- not fun when spending any real time in the cabin, particularly with two adults. That is one reason why the Catalina 22 with the poptop was such a popular boat.

My Twin recommends Welsford's Penguin -- which is over 20'.

[BarnacleGrim]

These tiny cabin boats are excellent if you want a small boat in the first place and dislike camping. Hopefully it will give you a dry and warm place to sleep during the night, but perhaps you also want shelter to cook, eat and relax away from the rain, in which case you need to move up in size. My advise is to at least find something with comfortable sitting headroom. A raised deck is perhaps also wise in such a small boat.

[prestonbriggs]

Forgive my strong language, but that's baloney.

But all boats are serious compromises, right?
You choose what matters to you and go with it.
It'll probably be different than the guy next door, but that's ok.

Preston

[JimD]

But all boats are serious compromises, right?

All boats are compromises. But that's not quite what the man said, Preston. Let us not allow our personal preferences to lead us to make misleading statements about other types of boats.

Regards, Jim

[Thorne]

Jim -

I do rather take exception to your description of my statement as "misleading".

Here is my statement: "anything under 20' or so with a cabin will be a serious compromise in space, stability, windage, etc." I think that this statement is totally correct, accurate and justified.

You seem to be saying that you can have real cabin sailboats under 20' that are not a serious compromise -- and the boat under discussion is under 16'. I disagree. I suspect that many other small boat sailors might also disagree.

Not that there aren't small sailboats with cabins -- but many would feel that they are less seaworthy and lose some ease of handling because of the cabin, and certainly aren't more stable. More dry and perhaps comfortable, yes -- but cabins result in less sailing-seating (cockpit) space, less stability with a lot more windage.

I'll admit that small sailboats with cabins may be safer in really heavy weather or a knockdown than an open boat, as long as the cabin hatch is shut to keep out the water. And I have a friend looking for a WWPotter who I'm helping as best as I can, as it will be the perfect boat for him and his wife -- so I'm not dissin' your boat or other small cabin sailboats.

Check out the sailboats by Francois Vivier -- show me one with a cabin under 19' - http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_classic.html

Welsford, a designer I really respect, has several small boats with cabins under 20' -- some at 13' or so. But none of those cabins allow sitting room in the cabins, with the exception of two that have (in effect) no cockpit and are sailed from inside the cabin. The only design that has what most of us would consider to be a comfortable cabin is the Penguin at over 20'.

[nic_diggler]

you live in west michigan as do I. I have some good wood sources for locally sawn materials. be in touch if i can help out with finding wood, or in some other way.

cheers
jerry

Thanks Jerry. I will definetely be in touch if I do decide to build.

[nic_diggler]

I would like to use the sailboat to cruise Lake Michigan on overnight trips. What is the smallest boat I can go, considering I am a novice?

[Thorne]

Try searching this Forum, as I believe this question has been asked several times before. Some of the folks with local boating knowledge should be able to give good advice.

Much depends on where on the lake you'll be going, but I suspect to be safe you'll need a 20'-25' sailboat and reliable outboard == Chebacco springs to mind for a small trailerable design that might work.

http://www.chebacco.com/articles/021/05/100_0773.JPG

[JimD]

I would like to use the sailboat to cruise Lake Michigan on overnight trips. What is the smallest boat I can go, considering I am a novice?

There are quite a few designs around 18 feet that will be adequately roomy and comfortable, safe, and sail not too shabbly as well. Some are old, some new. For simplicity there are catboats such as Ted Brewer's Cape Cod Bay



or

Charles Wittholz version a foot or so shorter



The Hartley TS 18



Quite a few from Selway Fisher:





And so on...

[JimD]

An 18er from the fabled drafting table of William and John Atkin:





Chesapeake Marine Design's Catbird 18:


Mist is getting close to 20 feet:

[nic_diggler]

I'm really curious about the "5-10 hours" bit. What, exactly, did you mean by that?

Doug

5-10 hours a week, I would be able to devote some time to. I know it isn't much and am sure it would be more.

[nic_diggler]

You guys have already shown me more boats that very well fit my liking, than I was able to do on my own in a week. I have another question? What makes a sailboat less likely to capsize? I was in the Navy and have good instincts and training, but I would rather not have to use them. BTW, I was a submariner, far from sailing.

[JimD]

What makes a sailboat less likely to capsize?

A complex question. There's beam, freeboard and hull depth, ballast weight and placement (which really refers to a low center of gravity and righting moment (leverage)), size of sail plan. Here's a handy on line primer from Ted Brewer, whose catboat I posted above: http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html. Here's an excerpt on capsize factors:

CAPSIZE SCREENING FORMULA (CSF): Some years ago the technical committe of the Cruising Club of America came up with a simple formula to determine if a boat had blue water capability. The CSF compares beam with displacement since excess beam contributes to capsize and heavy displacement reduces capsize vulnerability. The formula is the maximum beam divided by the cube root of the displacement in cubic feet; B/Displ.333. The displacement in cubic feet can be found by dividing the displacement in pounds by 64, of course.
The boat is acceptable if the result of the calculation is 2.0 or less but, of course, the lower the better. For example, a 12 meter yacht of 60,000 lbs displacement and 12 foot beam will have a CSF Number of 1.23, so would be considered very safe from capsize. A contemporary light displacement yacht, such as a Beneteau 311 (7716 lbs, 10'7" beam) has a CSF number of 2.14. Based on the formula, while a fine coastal cruiser, such a yacht may not be the best choice for ocean passages.

The small catboat I posted has a screening factor of 2.22, which is pretty darn good for an 18 foot boat with a roomy cabin.

One other important consideration is that since any boat can capsize under the right conditions is what happens after the boat capsizes? In other words what are the chances of it righting itself? Wide shallow hulls tend to do poorly in this case since they are usually almost as stable upside down as they are right side up. So lots to consider.

[Thorne]

What makes a sailboat less likely to capsize?

Width / Beam = the more the merrier.

Low Rig / Short mast = less chance of a knockdown.

Weight / Ballast down low = less chance of a knockdown.

Then you have 'righting motion', the ability to recover from being blown way over, knocked down, or even forced into a full 360 degree roll.

Also most good designs will not be stable when inverted, so are easier to pull back upright after a knockdown. Cats and Tris are unusual in that they will float upside down forever -- so you'll sometimes see hatches in the bottoms of larger ones used for ocean crossings.

[michigangeorge]

Nic, this has come up many times before on this forum and I'll give you mine (and others) this advise. Go buy yourself a good, cheap used fiberglass boat and learn how to sail first. It may not be pretty like a new wooden boat but it will teach you what you need to know before you jump into a project of unknown future value to you sailing wise. At 5-10 hrs per week you will be building for years before you actually get on the water if you were to take on some of the boats shown above! When you put your glass boat away for the winter start building a dinghy for her. Even a 12' skiff that can be sailed and rowed would be a good winters project. After sailing for awhile (get asked aboard other folks boats too) you will then be able to make an informed decision as to what to build and if you have built that dinghy you will have a more realistic idea of the time involved. Hang in there- it will happen:-)

[Eric D]

On your question regarding Lake Michigan and which boat....

First question is, which day? I am on the other side of that pond and I will tell you there are days which I have seen a small 12' jon boat out 1-2 miles trolling for Salmon...mill pond calm

Edmond Fitzgerald sank on that same lake.....

West shore is much more likely to have severe weather than my shore (barring a Nor' Easter) since the prevailing winds are South East.

I suspect a 15' would not cut it if any amount of summer squall hit and you were more than a few miles from shore.

Catboats are a totally different story though in regards to wider beam than some of the smaller boats mentioned.

good luck either way.

[JimD]

Yes, if you want to sail this summer or even next then buy a beater and have fun now. It will take years to build at 5-10 hrs a week.

Eric - The Edmond Fitzgerald sank on lake Superior.

[nic_diggler]

5-10 hours a week, I would be able to devote some time to. I know it isn't much and am sure it would be more.

Belay my last. 5-10 hours a week and all weekend.

[JimD]

...and all weekend.

Nic, please disregard the following if you really can spend all weekend working on a boat project :

Do I hear the sound of wishful thinking? This almost always translates to three or four hours on Saturday or Sunday afternoon, maybe. Otherwise, for the next year or two you will not ever have a weekend free to do anything else. No relaxing, no picnicing, no household chores and yardwork. Unless you are retired, no kids, no other responsibilities or demands on your time, a spouse with the patience and understanding of an angel, etc., you will not be able to devote the bulk of your weekends to this project. It just won't work out that way. Garages and yards around the world are littered with half finished boats that were started years ago by folks who saw themselves working on them every weekday evening and full days on the weekends. Then life intervened.

[BarnacleGrim]

Width / Beam = the more the merrier.

Of course, that makes it much harder to recover from a knockdown. What you need is higher displacement, but that makes it harder to trailer. For that reason wide beam is often seen as a decent compromise. Hard to knock down, hard to recover.

Edit: Take for instance, the ridiculously light Stevenson pocket yachts have (from what I gather from the website) capsize screening factors of 2.93, 3.52 and 3.30 for the Weekender, Vacationer and Pocket Cruiser respectively.

[JimD]

And with a beamy boat knockdown and capsize are fatefully linked because beamy boats don't really knockdown, they flip. A beamy, shallow boat may capsize more easily because once the angle of heel surpasses 90 degrees or thereabouts, all the way over they go. Whereas a deeper, narrower hull can easily surpass a 90 degrees of heel knockdown and still recover.

[kenjamin]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to be happy until somebody builds Welsford's Fafnir and tells me all about it.

With no centerboard to deal with, it's got to have the most comfortable cabin a 13' boat can have.

[JimD]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to be happy until somebody builds Welsford's Fafnir and tells me all about it.

With no centerboard to deal with, it's got to have the most comfortable cabin a 13' boat can have.

Tell you what, Kenjamin. If Cathy forbids me from building a Selway-Fisher Evening Swan I will build a Fafnir. Promise. Its a boat that deserves to be built and I reckon there are enough Tideway 14s on the go that its time for a Fafnir.

[kenjamin]

JimD, I take it Cathy wasn't too keen on selling the house and buying that stretched motorsailing catboat. For myself, I thought about cutting off the ends of my Caledonia yawl to see if it could pass for a Fafnir but then I thought it might hurt the resale value.

Of all the cabin pocket cruisers that could fit in the tiny (core unit) workshop I'm building, I definitely like the Fafnir best – especially since John Welsford seemed at least receptive to rigging it with one of my funky birdwing masts.

[JimD]

JimD, I take it Cathy wasn't too keen on selling the house and buying that stretched motorsailing catboat. For myself, I thought about cutting off the ends of my Caledonia yawl to see if it could pass for a Fafnir but then I thought it might hurt the resale value.

She couldn't figure out where the tomato patch would go...if you consider how much you could sell the middle part of the CY while keeping the ends for yourself I think it could be financially viable...if I threaten to build a Fafnir she will almost certainly agree to the Evening Swan.

[kenjamin]

...if you consider how much you could sell the middle part of the CY while keeping the ends for yourself I think it could be financially viable...

My,my. You are just full of good ideas, aren't you.

As far as playing the Fafnir card to get your Evening Swan, good luck with that, buddy.

It's good to have a plan, even if it's a bad one.

[slidercat]

Just my experience, not speaking from any Godlike position. I really like small open boats under 18', but when you glom a cabin on 'em there seems to be so many compromises made that is often isn't worth it.

One big compromise is cockpit space -- and to me that's what sailing is all about. When you, your crew and guests spend 90%+ of your time in the cockpit, it seems foolish to limit that space so you can have a cabin that rarely gets used.

Well, there are lots of boats under 20 feet with cabins that seem to please their owners. But I know what you mean, When I first started thinking about the boat that eventually became Slider, I was thinking about a little cabin. But at some point, I realized that I could either have comfortable seating in the hulls, or I could have cabins, but not both.

You can go both ways with this notion. Matt Layden's brilliant little sharpie cruiser Paradox is under 14' in length, but he's cruised it to the Bahamas many times. The boat is steered from within the cabin-- there is no cockpit. It's an example of good engineering; it recognizes that tiny boats have limitations that big boats don't. A boat like Minuet, and many other tiny cruisers, seem to imitate bigger boats by having both cockpit and cabin, when really, there's only room for one or the other to work optimally.