Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: Rudder mount electric motor

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,390

    Default Rudder mount electric motor

    Has anybody fiddled with this concept - say, on a medium size rowing boat. Or any other other idea for an unobtrusive extra bit of kick? Save the smart aleck remarks, inquiry on behest of a third party!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
    Posts
    2,962

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Eric, some time back didn't WB have a piece about just such an idea - a trolling motor imbeded in the rudder?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    there was a thread on this a month or so ago

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,390

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Thanks guys, I did a quick forum search but missed anything about this. I'll check again. Gig Harbor Boatworks here in Washington does market a rudder with an embedded electrically driven propeller 'pod'. The battery sits under the thwart. GHB is marketing some small traditional design, glass boats. Sorta of worth looking at them for hardware and cruising ideas. I sent a note to them about the pod but I am sure it is proprietory. It also appears to be permanent, no good, I would want something that detaches.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Chesapeake Beach, Md 20732 U.S.A.
    Posts
    26,724

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Eric...I did something like that 30 years ago to get the trimaran away from the docks, and 6 years ago for a 9 1/2 foot dink. You can remote the control portion and just extend the wires to the motor pod inside a small fiberglass tube that you mold into the rudder and then mount the motor and propeller on the rudder and fair it with epoxy/microballoons.
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
    "If you live life right, death is a joke as far as fear is concerned."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,412

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Eric -

    Here are some threads -
    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...trolling+motor
    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...trolling+motor

    http://www.ghboats.com/elecmotor.shtm

    The boat that I posted photos of from last year's SF Gunkholing trip is a local boat, and the builder swears by the setup. It can sail with the rudder horizontal to the water when no drag from the prop is desired, be hoisted entirely out of the water, or released to let the weight of the motor pull the rudder down.



    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,390

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    great stuff!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Wilmington, NC
    Posts
    1,036

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Thorne, I also like that boat, what is it?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Galveston Bay
    Posts
    968

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    I'm not too savy on the search function, but a few years ago there was a thread here on the forum on a trolling motor drive unit mounted in a rudder stock for a Pooduck skiff. I thought it was well done. It was an either/or arrangement; use a conventional rudder when sailing or swap it out for the rudder-motor when motoring.

    Nice article on the HV 16 in the current Small Boats magazine, btw. That's a beautiful boat.

    Al

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,412

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    I'm traveling up in Eureka and only have my iPhone, so will have to answer questions later. Perhaps Canoeyawl might know? Boat is heavily modified with reefpoints up to 4' from the top of the tall rig.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    RI, USA
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Eric, I've been fiddling with this concept for awhile and have just finished mocking up a rudder/motor mount to be constructed later this winter. A few thoughts:

    1) I looked closely at the GH set up. What is nice about their design is that you can hoist the motor out while still using the full rudder. Also, their controls are a Pulse Width Modulation control which is significantly more efficient than the resistance controller of 30lb minnkota motor that I have.

    2) If you can afford it, the new Torqueedo motor would be a great motor to cannibalize, if you've got the confidence and the budget to hack apart a perfectly good motor , otherwise I've been happy with the performance of the 30lb minnkota. They have a new kayak version coming out that looks like it may be very easy to retrofit....and big bonus, has a remote throttle.

    Good luck.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    29,246

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    I have sailed in company with that boat on and off for several years but don’t know much about her other than what I have seen. The boat may be an old class racer of some sort, a black cannonball on the mainsail. Beautifully built, long, narrow, shallow and over-rigged (note the mast in the photos Thorne has posted) she’s always been expertly sailed by a very capable teenager. The only time I saw her sailed by someone else she was upside down with the first good puff…
    The rudder/motor is a little engineering marvel built by the owner and it works very well. A car battery and a remote three-speed switch are about all there is to it. The motor itself is obviously pirated from an old MinnKota or the like. This little rig makes a powerful argument for electric auxiliary power.
    I have teased the young skipper and accused him of “cheating” in light air, with predictable results, but I knew it was well sailed and an excellent performer.
    A lovely little boat but methinks you need to be a bit of an athlete…

    There is a little video footage under sail in light air – somewhere in here

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Western Michigan
    Posts
    705

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Don't have a motor attached to the rudder but the drag of a normal electric motor on the transom of a 13' cat rigged sharpie is unacceptable in light air. Noticable reduction in speed due to drag. I've thought of building one as I have the parts available but short of removing the prop don't know how to overcome the excess drag of the prop.
    If you don't know where you're going, you might not end up there.-Yogi Berra

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wow-Ming
    Posts
    20,380

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    A type of motor that might lend itself to this sort of thing is the "engine-mount" trolling motor that's designed to bolt onto a large conventional outboard. The advantage would be to get a motor pod that's cabled to a remote control, and wouldn't need to be cannibalised from a standard shaft-mounted unit.



    Here's a link for the specs page:

    http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...233&hasJS=true

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,412

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    The thing is that for a small sail and oar boat, mounting an outboard frame might be rather intrusive when compared to a rudder-mount trolling motor setup.

    Here's an electric setup on a Bolger Diablo at the Timothy Lake messabout last Fall -- built by "JetMan" who likes unique and interesting propulsion systems -



    And here's another shot of the sailboat with the electric rudder from the Gunkholing trip. The camera angle makes it look narrower than it actually is -

    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Southampton Ont. Canada
    Posts
    6,848

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    It might be fairly simple to build a recess that the "engine-mount" troller could be pulled up into,not unlike a Dispro,resolving some of the drag issue.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wow-Ming
    Posts
    20,380

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Doug Hylan's Hird Island Skiff (in the 2009 Small Boats) has a trolling motor mounted on a removable bottom panel, that's basically invisible when the boat's in the water.

    http://www.dhylanboats.com

    From the study plans, it looks as if the motor-mount panel can be replaced with a plain one and the batteries lifted out, to lighten things up and reduce drag for rowing. But, it also looks as if that changeover must be done onshore.

    The intriguing bit about the boat shown is that the motor can be put in play immediately, while underway. The pivoting setup looks mildly awkward, which has me wondering if there'd be some way to use a motorised foil with a rudderstock open to the rear like the one on the Goat Island Skiff, and a foil that slides up and down, like a daggerboard.


    (photo: Duckworks Magazine)

    Perhaps a foil with the motor faired in on one end could come clean out of the stock and flip end-for-end, to put the prop in the water. (With the motor for steering, you'd not need the rudder.) For sailing, the motor would be above the stock with a good length of foil submerged.



    The wires would have to be integrated, with a rugged, waterproof plug. No doubt you'd want a pin or two, and a safety cable or strap, so you wouldn't lose it.

    Might be a stupid idea, but you can tell me that— no worries.
    Last edited by Chip-skiff; 01-12-2009 at 04:21 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wow-Ming
    Posts
    20,380

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    C'mon— I'm depending on you to tell me it's stupid so I won't have to build the thing.

    In any event, I'd like to note that following Hylan's plain-jane plywood skiff in the 2009 Small Boats is Eric's magnificent lapstrake row/sail design, the Hvalsoe 16.

    As a gifted designer and boatwright, p'raps he might offer some comment on the various schemes presented. (?)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,390

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Aaaaaargh, spent 20 minutes on a responce then lost it. More quickly now - chip skiff, not stupid, interesting. Thorne provided some great links, interesting idea with a small unit slipping on and off a transom mounted track.

    Not good - a permanent unit that messes up sailing and rowing, OR a detachable unit with with any loose parts, nuts bolts etc.
    I am still trying to imagine something that slips onto my existing sort of spoon shape rudder, or an unobtrusive transom mount.
    As they say about knots, neatness counts, and so do aesthethics

    I had a gentleman looking at the sixteen, he figured he needed to fight a couple of knots on a regular basis to get out to open water somewhere on the eastern seaboard. Now it is not difficult to row 2 - 4 knots with the 16, but I can understand the desire for a little extra help. Great contributions all, thanks. The idea is worth persuing.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,412

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Eric -

    Here's another thread on the topic with some old but good info -
    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...hlight=transom

    Here's my cunning plan for a track-mounted removable motor on the transom -


    And a swing-down version -
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wow-Ming
    Posts
    20,380

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Simplest might be to drill a few holes in the rudder foil and attach the motor pod—as needed— with stainless bolts and wingnuts. Gripes: you'd have to tip up the rudder and lean over the stern, dropping occasional bolts or nuts in the water. Also, the length of foil below the motor (as on the gunkholer shown) is likely to ground out when motoring in the shallows. And, finally, if you're steering with the motor, the foil is adding unwanted drag.

    Having the motor & prop in the water when not in use is, likewise, a drag.

    The drawing of a track-mount setup in Thorne's post looks promising. The track would be less obtrusive than the permanent brackets and tip-down unit, which looks well-made but clutters the appearance of the stern.

    Looking at a photo of the Hvalsoe 16, I can see why Eric might be reluctant to do that.


    (photo from http://www.hvalsoe-boats.com/ )

    The constraints for my skiff are a raked transom and my desire to keep it looking unaltered, while hiding batteries, cables, and such. So I'd like the motor and associated parts to be easily removable, and to leave as little trace as possible.

    This thread has got me keen to build something— I'll post photos of the eventual result. (After giving it a go on the water, that is.)

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,412

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    I was thinking of using heavy bronze sail track as a relatively unobtrusive attachment onto the transom, but any sort of slide-in mount would work as long as the other part of the mount would fit on the motor-base unit.

    One concern is the strength of such an attachment, and the impact on the transom area. Remember that a motor, even a trolling motor, is much like putting a large lever on that section of the transom -- lots of force pulling out and down. So a large backing plate or even beefing up the transom in that area might be wise...

    That is where the rudder-mount setup really shines, as there are no additional bits of hardware on the transom, and in most cases good-quality gudgeons with backing plates should handle the forces generated by the motor.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio
    Posts
    2,962

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Eric, how about a dedicated trolling motor built into a small rudder for motoring and a second proper row/sail rudder. Remove one to use the other which is stowed under a seat or some such. No unwonted drag, no ugly excrecences hanging on the back of a handsome boat like a big wart on the nose of a pretty girl.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,390

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Mmm, Tom, you have pointed out some advantages, but it might be kind of another big part to stash in the boat. Let's say I am going to row for awhile. I'd rather not even have the regular rudder in the water, too much drag. So if prepared for all possibilies I might be rowing with both the sailing rudder and the trolling rudder cluttering up the interior of the boat. A very compact drive pod would not be too bad for extra clutter. Clipping rudders on and off my gudgeons is a little bit of a nuisance out on the water if the boat is rocking and rolling. To borrow from Thorne again, maybe I could attach an unobtrusive track to the normal rudder and slip on a drive unit . . . For my own use this does not seem like a high priority, but it would be a trick to describe it as an option to a potential buyer. I will also visit Gig Harbour - they do sell some sort of unit seperately from thier boats and they sounded quite willing to share ideas.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fayetteville/Atlantic Beach, NC
    Posts
    60

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    How about a trim tab mount? Lenco and Minkota make 'em.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wow-Ming
    Posts
    20,380

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Wonder if the motor pod from the trim-tab setup is available without all the other stuff?

    I poked about for a source of trolling motor pods, to avoid paying for and then tossing a brand-new transom mount, shaft, twist-grip control, and similar.

    This was the best bet I came up with— reconditioned motors. Haven't called yet for prices.

    http://www.njtrollingmotors.com/cart...CON_MOTORS.htm

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,412

    Default Re: Rudder mount electric motor

    Another thing to consider is a used or new bow-mount unit. They come with a foot-pedal remote, so all you have to do is toss (or resell) the mounting unit and cut down the motor. Since you'll need a remote anyway, why not get one with the motor?

    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •