Bolger Micro in Sketchup 3D

[scottychop]

I know this boat has been bashed left and right on this forum, but I thought I'd give it a go in Cad just to see if it really was that small. All of the dimensions are correct with the exception of the sides where they meet bulkhead A. Here are some stills. Email me if you want the file.

Scott

[JimD]

Micro has a few admirers around here. Welcome to the forum, Scott.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Scott, does it take long to create a 3D drawing. What dimensions are needed. I would love to try creating my new RAID41 cruising dinghy in Sketchup if I thought I could produce such a nice illustration as you have.

Brian

[scottychop]

Thanks guys.

I've been a lurker here for awhile now, and am slowly, slowly trying to convince the wife that a build would be a good idea.

Creating one of these drawings takes a bit of time, say 10 hours or so for a beginner. I've been using sketchup (free from google) for a few months now and it's awesome. It is very friendly and intuitive. This is probably the hardest drawing I've done, with all of the complex curves. It took some thinking for sure. I usually commission houses from folks which are quite easy due to all of the straight lines. It actually took making two or thee different models and cutting and pasting them all together to get the final product.

Long live the micro!

Scott

[Woxbox]

Nice job. I'm a fan of the design -- makes loads of sense to me. Although if I were to build one, I'd for sure go with the stretch micro. Not much more work but lots more useful boat.

[soba]

Hey Scott,

nice job with the micro in Sketchup. I'd like a copy of your file, if you don't mind. How did you make the curves? I'm playing with making a Seabird in Sketchup, only I've only got as far as making frame and keel components.

I love the program, especially now that there are Ruby scripts that port Sketchup to CAM applications.

[Woxbox]

Another free program is Delftship. It's designed for boats so it handles the curves extremely well. You can punch in offsets to get started, so it's precise, too. I've done a few models with it, but a recent computer "issue" seems to have wiped out my files.

[scottychop]

Thanks for the compliments guys. How hard was Delfship to learn? I had read a favorable review before and am thinking of downloading it. Does it work on a mac?

Scott

[JimD]

Scott, are you thinking of building a Micro?

[scottychop]

Hi Jim,

Maybe. At the moment, I still don't own a sailboat and have been bumming rides from friends for daysails and races. I am still weighing the pro's and con's of building vs. buying a small tailerable boat to stick in the garage for a few years. That said, when I can I build all my toys from scratch. It's more satisfying for one, and gives me a hobby.

Know any Micro's in the Northwest?

Here is the link to the sketchup file: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...2a&prevstart=0
Scott

(oh, and yes I slowly catching up on Yahoo groups)

[Woxbox]

I don't know if Delftship works on a Mac. As far as learning it, it can be frustrating but there is a good tutorial that you can download, too. It's probably safe to say that if you think more like an engineer than an artist, it will work better and make more sense to you. If you're thinking of it as a sketch tool, you may get frustrated. Even the freebie version is fairly complete when it comes to drawing hulls and getting all the key data figured out for you -- dispalcement numbers and curves, etc. Hey, it's free. Nothing lost in giving it a try.

[scottychop]

Just finished reading "Three Years in a 12-foot Boat" by Stephen Ladd, and had an inspiration to scale the Micro for rowing, and small cabin.
She's 12ft with 4ft beam. Kickup rudder, Lee-boards, etc..

Sketchup Link: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...72e713dd4f492a

[JimD]

Speaking of twelve feet, how about a Bolger Old Shoe?





...with a little cabin.

[wharf rat]

Know any Micro's in the Northwest?

Craigslist Medford/Klamath Falls had one for sale a couple of months ago--pretty reasonable too IIRC. It was posted several times--if you were interested you could always post a "looking for the guy who..." ad.

cheers

[paladin]

A Great Pelican is built much the same way, has more room and maybe more functionality....

[James McMullen]

Know any Micro's in the Northwest?

There was one I saw in Port Townsend a few years ago that was for sale. For sale for a long, long time apparently. The story I heard about it is what your biggest problem is likely to be: no resale value whatsoever. It is hard enough to convince a skeptical buyer that a homebuilt boat is worth even the cost of materials you put into her. It is even harder when it is an undeniably not very pretty slab-sided plywood boat with only average performance that doesn't even have a genuine pointy end. I encourage you to seek out a actual Micro owner--maybe on the Bolger groups--and go for a sail in one before you commit to building one, cause you'll likely never get more than a fraction of your investment out of her.

Now don't get me wrong, there's some good reasons to build yourself a Micro if you really, really want the experience of building your own boat, you have zero woodworking skills, you enjoy the way the sound of waves slapping against the big expanses of flat plywood is amplified like a guitar soundboard, you're not sensitive about petty details like aesthetics or beauty, getting to windward is more of an idle hobby than a necessity. . . . .

I do like the cat-yawl rig, though.

[Woxbox]

Nice list James, but I do notice you're not questioning the seaworthiness of the design.

I think if you devised a good way to securely tent over the cockpit for sleeping, it would also seem like one of the roomiest 16 footers around.

[James McMullen]

I don't think it is not a seaworthy design. I think that it is an ugly boat that compromises many features that I find to be of value for the sake of making it simpler to build.

I've built quite a few Bolger designs in my earlier years. . . .and I no longer think that the simplifications of the building process are worth the crudities they force on the boat.

[JimConlin]

The used sailboat market is almost always a buyer's market.

Two suggestions:

If you don't have unusual needs, for what it'd cost to build something, you can probably buy an existing manufactured boat that'll function just as well. And, when you want to sell it, you get most of your money back.

Building a boat is justified if you can't find what you want in an existing boat. If you have particular needs for performance, beauty or extreme seaworthiness, maybe building a boat can be justified.

[DGentry]

Well, I agree about not being able to sell a Micro. They burn good, though.

James - "undeniably not very pretty"? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I may be biased, but I think that Micro's are pretty and aesthetically pleasing, even if they aren't conventional in appearance.

Not to one-up the OP, who's 3d renderings are very nice, but I thought I might mention Bruce Hallman's work in this direction. He regularly posts 3d "isometrics" for many, many of Bolgers boats, from his Flickr photosite, on the Bolger Yahoo group.

Here's just some of his views of a Micro. There are views from every direction, and this is repeated for all the Bolger boats he has done up. Check it out . . . .
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/

[scottychop]

Nice designs. I've enjoyed his posting for quite awhile. Thanks for all the response. I love Bolger's sharpie designs in a way that is different from my love for and more traditional boat. It's almost a completely different vessel to me. I think the more you look at the Micro the more and more you see how everything comes together in a very eye pleasing way.

My scaling down to 12' was just an exercise in trying to keep that aesthetic and add a new function - portability and rowing. I also like double enders so I cut back the transom. I think it too looks beautiful!

I probably will not be building either of them, simply for lack of space, time, resources....etc...

Scott

[Bernadette]

forgive me if i upset a few people here, but that has got to be about the ugliest design ive seen in a long time. why not build something that is aesthetically pleasing and is a heck of a lot more seaworthy?

theres always a cheaper version...by a bath tub!!! looks the same and probably performs the same!

[DGentry]

Your opinion about the Micro's looks is as valid as anyone else's.

But to disparage a Micro's seaworthiness (!), especially in comparison to multitudes of other, similar sized pocket cruisers . . . well, looks can be deceiving.

[P.L.Lenihan]

theres always a cheaper version...by a bath tub!!! looks the same and probably performs the same!

Bernadette,

You clearly have never sailed a bathtub nor a Micro for if you had, you would know all too well the Micro can and does sail circles around any old bathtub you'd care to sail in. Now,as far as looks go, to each their own

Peter,ex owner/builder of a Micro and aspiring bathtub owner too one day

[Bernadette]

well you can bet i wouldnt even bother with either for the same reasons i quoted earlier!

[JimD]

Building a boat is justified if you can't find what you want in an existing boat. If you have particular needs for performance, beauty or extreme seaworthiness, maybe building a boat can be justified.

I've always thought the main justification for building a boat is because you want to.

[Woxbox]

I've always thought the main justification for building a boat is because you want to.

I'd say it's the only reason. If the object is to get a boat, there are much better ways. Some like the building more than the boating.

[Dan St Gean]

I'd say it's the only reason. If the object is to get a boat, there are much better ways. Some like the building more than the boating.

That's pretty much true--unless you are looking for a beach cruising multihull. Seems that there's not much out there in terms of deals except for used beachcats. There are some options for the older trimaran, but getting something that's not available is another good reason to build.

Dan

[wtarzia]

I like Bolger boats for what they are, but I notice that a lot of his designs have humongous windage (I like those water ballast boats showcased in Wooden Boat a few years ago, but TALL topsides). I guess that's necessary in shallow draft cruise designs. So my question is, what are the effects of some much windage on leeway and windward work? Thus:

To what extent do slightly bigger/better boards compensate for windage? When does windage become a detriment that cannot be worked around in a sailboat, so that your minimalist cruising design simply cannot get someplace that a lower windage boat might attain on a bad day?

I think these questions are generic to trailerable pocketcruisers?-- Wade

[frank pedersen]

I think the more interesting issue brought up in this thread is Sketchchup as a CAD system for marine applications. I took a brief look at it but found very little to give me guidance on how to proceed. So I ordered a book on Sketchup, a new publication that is coming out shortly.

[Woxbox]

Wade -- Bolger has addressed this on and off over the years, and his conclusion is that it's not nearly the factor that people assume it to be. As an owner of a catamaran that's 90% on top of the water and pretty bulky at that, I can say that the wind doesn't slow it down much at all. I had a trimaran of similar proportions, too. Both boats can do 10 knots or more into a stiff breeze. The tri had a big centerboard and held on pretty well, the cat has stub keels and makes more leeway as a result, but still charges into the wind with real authority. I'd say a poorly trimmed sail hurts far more than extra bulk above the waterline.

[scottychop]

Sketchup is pretty crude really. There is no way to measure the length of a curved line, for example, and putting together compound curves is beyond hard. Youtube has been invalualbe as a resource however. I just like the fact that it's free.

I have heard GREAT things about Delftship.
Scott

[wtarzia]

Wade -- Bolger has addressed this on and off over the years, and his conclusion is that it's not nearly the factor that people assume it to be. As an owner of a catamaran that's 90% on top of the water and pretty bulky at that, I can say that the wind doesn't slow it down much at all...

--- That's good to know. I read an article on catamaran windage somewhere (a good technical article, can't recall who though) that concluded that rounding off the edges of decks and cabins (i.e., good sized radiuses) made a big difference in reducing the effects of windage. I think I've seen one pocket cruiser that looked like such an attempt was made, but as usual I can't recall where. I think a photo was posted on one of our forums last year... -- Wade

[James McMullen]

Mr. Bolger doesn't think that a bunch of windage is not worth the extra reserve buoyancy up high. Mr Bolger doesn't think that the extra drag of outside chine logs isn't worth the simplification of the building process. Mr. Bolger doesn't think that the inherent compromises of leeboards aren't worth the opening up of the boat's interior spaces. He may well have a point about all of these things based on his own preferences. . . . .

. . . .but just about NOBODY picks a Bolger design for its lightning sailing qualities. Many of his boats sail okay. . . .some better than others, some less so. . . .but what Phil Bolger is renowned for is the breadth and scope of his design catalog, his willingness to experiment, his refusal to be captive to convention and not his stable of thoroughbred racing boats. Novices and the more sedate cruising types are more likely to be content with his simple plywood boats than most performance oriented sailors would be. At least that's my history with the Bolger's.

[kenjamin]

Suzanne Altenberger is Bolger's wife so there's only one Bolger if you were to call them. I'm not sure about their famous cat's name who's prissy butt was featured in Suzanne's video on Mr. Bolger that was shown at the tribute dinner in 2007 at the WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Boat Show.

Although Mr. Bolger's designs are not for everyone, his books are. The honesty with which he describes the good and bad elements of his own designs is refreshing, educational, and sometimes downright funny. The last I heard Bolger and friends were working on a new type of landing craft for the U.S. government. I sure would like to see what they came up with although Phil admitted at the tribute dinner that it was mostly Suzanne'e baby. Of Mr. Bolger's designs, I have always admired the Swedish Cruiser, about a forty foot flush deck, yawl junk rigged cruiser with less than standing head room but a heck of a strong-looking boat that looks like it could go most anywhere. With it's two foot draft, it just about could. It can be found in Bolger's Different Boats page 133.

[peabody]

Wonder how the micro would do with a yamaha 9.9 ? Just too putt around the lake?

[DerekW]

Wonder how the micro would do with a yamaha 9.9 ? Just too putt around the lake?

The first motor we had on our Micro was an old Honda 9.9 fourstroke. It was way more motor than the hull needed to push it, and I gritted my teeth really badly watching the [already beefed-up] transom flex under the inertia when we were bounced by wakes and chop, sailing. Traded the old Honda in against a five horse Nissan. Probably still more than the hull needs.

[peabody]

The first motor we had on our Micro was an old Honda 9.9 fourstroke. It was way more motor than the hull needed to push it, and I gritted my teeth really badly watching the [already beefed-up] transom flex under the inertia when we were bounced by wakes and chop, sailing. Traded the old Honda in against a five horse Nissan. Probably still more than the hull needs.

thank you ... its what i needed to know.

[peabody]

The first motor we had on our Micro was an old Honda 9.9 fourstroke. It was way more motor than the hull needed to push it, and I gritted my teeth really badly watching the [already beefed-up] transom flex under the inertia when we were bounced by wakes and chop, sailing. Traded the old Honda in against a five horse Nissan. Probably still more than the hull needs.

thanks .... still thinking of somehow use my yammie 9.9 .... ive found a used micro .that im thinking of buying
..my motor is not the high thrust model. but it does have the 20" shaft and remote steering.
again ..thanks ..

[Oldad]

The 9.9 will do fine, granted it is a lot more than you need to push it at hull speed but so what? If it is what you have and not totally unreasonable why not use it. You will find that you don't need much more than idle to move the boat and it could not be quieter. Will you need to raise the transom?

[peabody]

.......yes .. it looks like ill have to raise it a little ..and beef it up.the boat needs some work.but on the other hand ..I've built a brockway 16 foot scow.ive this ideal of using the same motor for both boats.thinking .i might add a cuddy cabin to the scow.several ways i can go ..........

[odinsman]

. . . .but just about NOBODY picks a Bolger design for its lightning sailing qualities. Many of his boats sail okay. . . .some better than others, some less so. . . .but what Phil Bolger is renowned for is the breadth and scope of his design catalog, his willingness to experiment, his refusal to be captive to convention and not his stable of thoroughbred racing boats. Novices and the more sedate cruising types are more likely to be content with his simple plywood boats than most performance oriented sailors would be. At least that's my history with the Bolger's.

I think this is a major problem, when evaluating sailboat design. Not everyone sails to race. Also, not all those who do not sail to race are panty-waste low testosterone fools. As for myself, I own a 10' laser type racing dinghy, of some sort. It was made in 74 by Conlin Boat Works. That's all I know about it. I got it with a boomed lateen. I am sure it wasn't the original sail. I didn't like it and, as it was tired and in need of replacement, I made a sprit sail ( with a boom ), of the same square footage as the lateen. I, also, own an holiday20. With the sprit sail, my 10' boat can point just as high as the holiday20. If she isn't pointing as high, it's such a small difference that I can't tell the difference. I do not race. That doesn't mean I don't love an exciting sail. I do. In fact, I often sail in crazy heavy weather, for a 10' dinghy. But I spend my sailing time exploring and....well...just sailing. The boat I sail the most? The 10' dinghy. I am looking at this thread, today, because I am considering glassing on a full keel. That would open up the cramped cockpit, for more comfortable sailing and it would allow me to sail in shallower water, than my present skinny, deep dagger board.
I am trying to find real usable opinions of windward performance with a full keel, modified full keel, or shallow long fin keel. And I am trying to find input to help me design my keel. I am going to make temporary plywood keels to experiment with, but I want to narrow down my efforts. And, if it's going to impair my performance, to wind, to a huge amount, I would like to know that as well. But it's hard to find an opinion that isn't from the racing side of things. Those who sail full keel swallow or micro type boats seem to like them, but they don't talk a lot about how they perform. Those who do not own these types of boats, and who are racing minded, are the vocal majority of opinions that you can find. The trouble is, I can read all the sailing physics info, myself. What would be good would be a real life, practical review of how well a well designed keel boat really can sail. Real world performance. I know the plusses and negatives of all the underwater board designs, but am I really going to notice the difference? What is the best shape for the keel? Traditional full keel? Modified full keel? Some combination of both? A long shallow fin, instead? Will the addition of a 'plate' along the bottom edge of the keel help reduce wash over? Has that even been tried, on a keel boat, or only on fins? There are a lot of modern 'performance' sailboat types who have never sailed full keel or who only sail to race, that bash keel boats but full keels, or some version of them, have been around for a while. Viking long ships used them, and they sail very well ( if you pay attention to people who actually have sailed in them instead of know it alls who haven't but claim they can't do better than reach ). The problem is, you can't seem to find any real world, practical info, for an average guy.

[Tom Robb]

An OZ boat with a keel sporting an end plate took the America's Cup away from the NYYC.

[Woxbox]

And I am trying to find input to help me design my keel. I am going to make temporary plywood keels to experiment with, but I want to narrow down my efforts. And, if it's going to impair my performance, to wind, to a huge amount, I would like to know that as well.

I just don't think you can separate the work the keel does from the rest of the boat. The whole thing works as a unit -- a good keel under a bad rig won't go to windward, and neither will a good rig over a bad keel. And the physical relationship between the two has to be correct, and on and on and on and on. This is what makes the study so fascinating. There is no absolute formula.

I'd say enjoy experimenting. That's how I approach it. I've always made changes to the centerboards, daggerboards, rudders and leeboards on my small boats. And I'm still here to talk about it.

[slloyd]

i used Sketchup when drawing boldger sneakeasy. i liked how i could take his book's scaled marking and transfer them to my 4x8 plywood drawing and create cut plans. i could lay out each frame on a piece of 4x8 and rotate them to see how i could have the least amount of waste. i then took those cut plans, rotated them, and then assembled them. i then found where the problems would be with their alignment and how it should be constructed. really really helps visualize the process.

there are a couple of plug-ins for doing curves. which one did you use?

what i didn't like, and it was mentioned in thread, is that you can't measure the curve, and frankly sketchup doesn't do curves all that well. i messed with it for hours to get the curves correct and finally got it .. but can not fill in the curved panels since it doesn't recognize that the shape is closed. ah well.. i tried.

[odinsman]

Hey. Thanks. That's some encouragement!

[odinsman]

Well, it is an experiment, but I am not at all sure the full keel is truly as bad a everyone says. People like to bash sprit, gaff, and lug sails, in favor of bermudas, but I, for one, love sprit sails. Then there is the whole paradox/ chine runner thing. By conventional sailboat physics, they shouldn't work. However, people who own them claim they do and I saw a video of a guy beating to wind, in one, under some seriously harsh conditions. time will tell, but it's good to hear of a successful racing keel boat.