**SCHOOLS** - wondering where to start

[AlexAlex]

Hey!

im a 21y/o Canadian from the East Coast currently living on the West Coast. I have a technical architecture degree and i want to get involved in sailboat design.
I am interested in the Silva Bay school and in IYRS. I have also looked at the Webb Institute but i dont think its program interests me too much.

I wonder if anyone knows if those schools have any focus on design as well as the construction aspect. So, what do you guys think of those 2 schools?

Thanks so much in advance!

Alex

[rbgarr]

The Landing School here in Maine has an intensive ten month yacht design program with the option to continue in construction, systems, composites or vice versa:
http://landingschool.org/

[Bob Triggs]

take a look at the Northwest School Of Wooden Boatbuilding in Hadlock WA. Its a 1/2 hour ferry ride from Seattle and a 1/2 hour drive up to the school. There was another thread here recently on this subject. Look it up.

[AlexAlex]

Thanks rbgarr! ill look at that school. It seems to be exactly what im looking for.

Bob, ive seen the thread about the Northwest School Of Wooden Boatbuilding and it seems pretty interesting but i wonder if there is any focus on design or if its just like Silva bay..

Thanks a lot!

Alex

[JimConlin]

Consider Westlawn

[TR]

Alex,

Specifically what area of sailboat design are you interested in? Racing, cruising, mega yachts, traditional daysailers? Is there a particular office that you're aiming to work in? Realize that in any given year the number of new sailing yacht designs created in professional North American offices number less than two dozen (pure guess!).

This is a tiny field, getting smaller every day. You either become very generally educated, or very specialized. I believe the practical component of a designer's education is vital. Designers need to know how to build stuff, the best way to learn that is to do it. Yacht Designers also need sea time, lots of it!

I believe there is a short practical (hands on construction) section to the Landing School design course. Another usual route is to take a boatbuilding course (or work in a boatyard) and do the Westlawn Yacht Design correspondence course.

Good luck, Tad

[Tom Robb]

NWS of WBB's focus is construction skills w/ a dab of design theory. Nice place, nice people, good school - IMHO.
If you want to be a NA, I 'd look at Webb or MIT (?). If a boat designer then Westlawn might be worth a look.
"mmd" - see fireboat begins thread - is a NA and probably could give you a far more experienced opinion.

[AlexAlex]

Thanks a lot for those outputs!

Ill look closely at NWS of WBB right now.

alex

[Bob Triggs]

Thanks rbgarr! ill look at that school. It seems to be exactly what im looking for.

Bob, ive seen the thread about the Northwest School Of Wooden Boatbuilding and it seems pretty interesting but i wonder if there is any focus on design or if its just like Silva bay..

Thanks a lot!

Alex

Alex, I see that the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding is offering a design course coming up soon. Appearantly this is a course for matriculated full time students, but they do allow a few to take it from the outside as well if there is room. Wish I could do it. If you are hard core about the design and architecture, maybe you should be looking at somethiung like the Maine Maritime College.

[Clinton B Chase]

Alex, Can't go wrong at The Landing School. My time there was worth every penny in salary I did not make during the year and every penny I paid out. I did boatbuilding. Rbgarr did systems. We both watched the design students struggle through what is a very intense year. Apparently the 10 month program was 2 1/2 years worth of NA degree concentrated. I think they are splitting it out into two years and offering an associates, did you hear that Dave?

I am looking forward to bringing one of my students down for a tour; he wants to go pretty badly.

Clint

[Dave Davis]

I think IYRS concentrates mostly on the trades aspect of it, and less on the design perspective--but could be wrong as I've not taken a close look at their offerings lately.

What I can offer is that they have stellar facilities, about to become even better as they complete rehab of another building on their site. And Newport is a pretty great place to be in terms of access to a wide variety of marine related businesses and opportunities.

[rbgarr]

Alex, Can't go wrong at The Landing School. My time there was worth every penny in salary I did not make during the year and every penny I paid out. I did boatbuilding. Rbgarr did systems. We both watched the design students struggle through what is a very intense year. Apparently the 10 month program was 2 1/2 years worth of NA degree concentrated. I think they are splitting it out into two years and offering an associates, did you hear that Dave?

I am looking forward to bringing one of my students down for a tour; he wants to go pretty badly.

Clint

IIRC the school was going to offer the two year associates program as a joint program with the Maine Maritime Academy. I don't know where that stands.

Tad is correct about designers needing to really know much more than the basics of everything marine related before starting to design. I sensed that some of the yacht design students at the school were struggling with more than just the rapid pace when I was there. Some seemed to have trouble understanding the context within which a boat/yacht must exist, and I surmised it may have been because they did not have much experience with different types of craft in challenging situations.

My .02 only and again it was only a sense of the situation.

Clint,

I hired on to do systems work primarily but when a builder's job opened up I volunteered to take it on as well. A good decision and it's worked out well all around. The time I spent keeping up with what went on in the boat building course you took has helped.

[NYCKiwi]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have any insights into Tom MacNaughton’s design course?

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/school.htm

[Brahm Thexton]

Just reviving the thread as i am curious about yacht design schools as well. Specifically I'm wondering about Westlawn vs Mcnaughton.

Cheers

[TR]

I can't comment on MacNaughton's course material as I've never seen any of it. Walk into any design studio in New Zealand or Europe and say you are a graduate of the MacNaughton School of Yacht Design and they'll go...."huh?" But the cost is less than Westlawn and you can pay as you go. I don't know if they are accredited or if you can get a student loan to pay tuition.

Westlawn is more expensive, I believe they are accredited thus you could (in theory at least) get a student loan. The Westlawn name will probably be recognized worldwide. I have some old Westlawn course material and it was reasonable (though already dated) for the time in which it was used.

This is one of the biggest problems with course material, yacht design is a fast changing field and these small schools cannot afford to completely re-write texts every few years. Yes, the basic physics remain the same, but our understanding and use of them changes wildly over time.

In the early 1980's I enrolled in the Yacht Design Institute (YDI) correspondence course created and run by Ted Brewer, Bob Wallstrom, and Bob Watkins. At the time the course material was the most up to date, it was very good and complete for the day. Westlawn was still using stuff from the 1930's while YDI incorporated the latest data on keels, tank-testing, powerboats, and multihulls.

I understand that Westlawn has just recently bought this (YDI) material, I can't really believe they are going to use it.....I'll guess they just want it as a guide? Anyway I think it far more likely Westlawn material is more up-to-date than MacNaughton's.


And despite what these schools tell you......it is the extremely rare individual who is ready to open a yacht design office after completing the course. You have to get a job and apprentice to a working designer. The course will teach you some of skills required for successful design, it won't teach you how to be a successful designer.

[Don Kurylko]

That’s interesting Tad. I did the YDI course too, but was always under the impression that the Westlawn course was more up to date. Nice to know it was the other way around!

But the best advice, as you say, is to apprentice into a design office as soon as you can, build boats (even small ones) and get as much sea time in as possible. Oh, yeah, and don’t expect to get rich.

[Brahm Thexton]

C'mon Don, me expecting to get rich from designing boats.... hahaha. I think maybe you guys are just scared of a little new competition. Nudge nudge wink wink.

Seriously though, thanks for the advice guys. Definitely good points about dated course material. I will look into that.

[Don Kurylko]

I was just speaking generally Brahm. I know you’re a modest and humble guy. And a talented one at that. I think you should just try and get into a design office if you have those ambitions. Skip the school bit. You can pick that up on the job. I would concentrate on drafting skills and learning AutoCad. These are far more essential in the beginning, in my opinion anyway. Apprentices usually have to do an awful lot of floor sweeping before they are allowed to “design” something. Hell, you didn’t need to go to school to get where you are now, right?

By the way, start by getting copies of Chapelles books: "Yacht Design" and "Boatbuilding". Then loft a really difficult boat, like a Whitehall or something, using the relevant chapters in "Boatbuilding". You've already built a bunch of boats so you can skip that part and dive right into "Yacht Design" and take it from there. That's the Archaeological approach and it will give you really good basic understanding of the design process from the bottom up. Then, and only then, consider going to school or taking a course. You'll save a ton of money and find out if you really have a talent for it.

Cheers,
Don

[Brahm Thexton]

Thanks Don,

Great advice, and come to think of it, I suppose I dont have thousands of dollars to spend on a design course anyways (I was laid off my job last week). I just spent a bunch of time flipping through my old copy of Chapelle's Boatbuilding book. Now I just need to find a copy of his yacht design book. Maybe I'll start a lofting project here next week (I cant believe I haven't even done one yet, you small boat designers spoil us....) As for computer drafting programs, do you guys think I should start with AutoCad or should I get Rhino?

[Don Kurylko]

AutoCad is really expensive, but it is the recognized industry standard. AutoCad LT is all you need though and it’s about $1,000. IntelliCad is much cheaper and pretty much does the same thing – worth checking out. You will need this type of program for doing all the drafting work necessary to produce the nice neat drawings that comprise a set of building plans. For actual design work you will need something like Rhino or other 3D surface modeling program. I use Aero-Hydro Multi-Surf. It’s expensive, but they do have a more reasonably priced Lite version. Just make sure that the programs you choose can Export and Import DXF files. You will be designing the model in one and then exporting it to the other for the finished detail drawings. None of the programs that I know of do both.

But for starters, there is no reason that you can’t do all of this by hand the old fashioned way, especially if money is an issue. It actually might be better in some ways - kind of like doing math with a pencil rather than a calculator. You get the same result; it just takes a little longer and requires a bit more brain power. Not such a bad thing really.

Chapelles “Yacht Designing and Planning” lists all the instruments and things you will need to get started. Many of which you can actually make yourself, like lead ducks and such. Skeene’s “Elements of Yacht Design” can get you through a lot of the more complicated calculations, if need be. But Chapelle is fine for beginners.

I would also suggest that you use 3mm double matte Mylar Film for all your drawing work instead of paper or Vellum, simply because it is so tolerant of the repeated erasing that you will need to do when creating a set of lines. Paper deteriorates too quickly. Film is much hardier and you can draw on both sides of it, as well as trace over it easily. Lubricating the eraser with a drop of water really helps to extend the life of the Mylar surface too. It works like a charm on pencil or fresh ink.

A 36” x 50 yard roll of Mylar film is pretty pricy, but well worth the expenditure. What you don’t use for design and drafting work can be used in the building shop for all sorts of purposes, like tracing and transferring lines from the lofting to the moulds and other construction components, etc. You might remember doing this from the Cottage Skiff project we did together.

I hope that helps. I’m sorry to hear that you’ve been laid off. I’m sure it won’t be for long.

[Brahm Thexton]

Thanks Don, that's very helpful!