A folkboat found me

[floatingkiwi]

[RFNK]

I agree with that Kerry but the wings we're talking about don't go up very high (the ones you show in your pictures are already pretty high!) and the idea is to tighten up this part of the boat and take a bit of pressure off the lower planks, as I see it. I only did this to one floor under the engine on Pipsqueak as this area showed signs of weakness and the Folkboat wasn't designed to carry an engine. In hindsight, I probably should have strengthened each floor around the engine instead of just the damaged one. In the case of the Twister, it seems a bit weak around the ring frames supporting the mast so I'll probably extend about four floors there. I guess the trick in an old boat is to look at what time and use has already done to it and see what can be done to avoid that damage happening in the future. These boats are already so well built that they've survived many years and usually many years of neglect but that doesn't mean improvements can't be made. For example, the standard Folkboat has no bridgedeck and a non-draining cockpit. At sea, if it takes a big greenie over the side, it's going to swamp the boat. If it then takes another, there's a good chance of losing boat and life. The Folkboat also has no structural member spanning the midship section other than the cabin roof so it's an area of weakness. Installation of a bridgedeck gives you the capacity to install a self-draining cockpit (you'll want that when you sail yours back to Godzone) and significantly strengthens the hull.

Also, as you say, it's better to take the floor right out if it needs repair but eben so, if you're planning to build it up a bit, it's tricky doing this as the angles are so complicated. Putting it back in to build up the laminations if this is necessary just makes it all a bit easier. Rick



Rick

[floatingkiwi]

Those floor pics are from various stages and things look a little different now that they are screwed in and the frames are comin' along, oh the frames. They are gettin the treatment. Pics soon.

[floatingkiwi]

I agree with that Kerry but the wings we're talking about don't go up very high and the idea is to tighten up this part of the boat and take a bit of pressure off the garboard, as I see it. I only did this to one floor under the engine on Pipsqueak as this area showed signs of weakness and the Folkboat wasn't designed to carry an engine. In hindsight, I probably should have strengthened each floor around the engine instead of just the damaged one. In the case of the Twister, it seems a bit weak around the ring frames supporting the mast so I'll probably extend about four floors there. I guess the trick in an old boat is to look at what time and use has already done to it and see what can be done to avoid that damage happening in the future. These boats are already so well built that they've survived many years and usually many years of neglect but that doesn't mean improvements can't be made. For example, the standard Folkboat has no bridgedeck and a non-draining cockpit. At sea, if it takes a big greenie over the side, it's going to swamp the boat. If it then takes another, there's a good chance of losing boat and life. The Folkboat also has no structural member spanning the midship section other than the cabin roof so it's an area of weakness. Installation of a bridgedeck gives you the capacity to install a self-draining cockpit (you'll want that when you sail yours back to Godzone) and significantly strengthens the hull. Rick

Mate. This is a very interesting point and one I wasn't sure I would bring up for fear of bastardizing design, but I have a bridgedeck and selfbailing cockpit from another boat and am considering using it for that very reason. I will show you soon. I wasn't referring to tjockiss floors earlier. I was just waffling. Later.
Kerry

[RFNK]

See how one of your floors is made of timber grown to shape, so to speak? I had one of those (at least) and it's the one that cracked - right along the ray/grain! Yours has cracked too, in much the same way. That floor you've repaired - I don't think I'd have done it like that. I'd have curved out the base and laminated strips on top to form the wings as I think this is a strong, flexible design. Rick

[RFNK]

I wasn't sure I would bring up for fear of bastardizing design

If you want to use the boat to race in once a week for a few months each season, then the whole `one design' concept is important. If you want a safe craft in which to go to sea, then make improvements that don't spoil the design. To me, a self-draining cockpit with bridgedeck is a no-brainer. I won't put lifelines etc. on the boat as they'll spoil the look and I think jack straps are a better, safer arrangement anyway. Folkboats weren't designed with proper ventilation forward or aft either so I've installed dorade boxes forward and mushroom vents aft as, in our climate, these are essential for the longevity of the boat. I also didn't need a hanging locker for oilskins - modern materials are better and dry quickly - so I removed it and put in a little sink, bench and drawers. My boat will last a long time because it'll be used a lot. If it wasn't safe and comfortable, it'd be used less. Design shouldn't be ignored and the integrity of good design should be maintained. But if you move away from the designed purpose of a boat you often have to make some changes to the design - I think it's possible to change elements of a design while maintaining integrity. Others disagree with that, of course. Bad luck. Rick

[Larks]

Kerry, just popped by to say gidday, I do love your work mate!!!
cheers, Greg

[LakeErieSailor]

Hi, Kerry and Rick

Hey, Rick, thanks for the tips on laminating in floors; hadn't thought about the ends wanting to spring up. Re getting the proper curvature on the original floors, I thought I'd use something flexible, e.g., small-dia. copper tubing or one of those drafting flex curves to get the shape. Point taken also on thinner laminations.

None of my floors land on frames, so there's not a problem with that, but I think that the planking is fastened to them. I'll know in the next few days.

Interesting thoughts also on bridge deck and self-draining cockpit. Why do you suppose the boat was designed without those, considering the kind of waters it was meant to sail? Also, wouldn't the back bulkhead supply some 'thwartships rigidity?

Kerry, very nice work on your floors; wish that I was as far along.

[RFNK]

So your floors sit between the frames but are not attached to them? Obviously in that case the planks would have to be fastened to them or they'd serve no purpose at all other than the ballast hanging on them and clamping the planking to the keel, of course.

The boat was designed for racing in areas with plenty of strong, cold wind so I guess they wanted the crew protected within a low, spacious cockpit. I doubt that it was imagined even then that the boat would be taken into areas with large waves without modification. Ocean passages were not in the original design brief. Our coast here in eastern Australia is not cold so protection from the wind is not so important but we do have large waves breaking over shallow bars etc. so the risk of being swamped is a reality here. This is why I installed a self-draining cockpit. As far as the strengthening of the midships area goes, well, the only real bulkhead that's there otherwise is the one behind the cockpit. I just don't think that's quite enough, especially once the boat ages. My boat is 50 years old. Rick

[Candyfloss]

(you'll want that when you sail yours back to Godzone)

You going to do this Kerry? You need crew?

[RFNK]

You going to do this Kerry? You need crew?

You'll get to know each other really well!! Rick

[floatingkiwi]

(you'll want that when you sail yours back to Godzone)

You going to do this Kerry? You need crew?

Are you not already in New Zealand?

[floatingkiwi]

If you want to use the boat to race in once a week for a few months each season, then the whole `one design' concept is important. If you want a safe craft in which to go to sea, then make improvements that don't spoil the design. To me, a self-draining cockpit with bridgedeck is a no-brainer. I won't put lifelines etc. on the boat as they'll spoil the look and I think jack straps are a better, safer arrangement anyway. Folkboats weren't designed with proper ventilation forward or aft either so I've installed dorade boxes forward and mushroom vents aft as, in our climate, these are essential for the longevity of the boat. I also didn't need a hanging locker for oilskins - modern materials are better and dry quickly - so I removed it and put in a little sink, bench and drawers. My boat will last a long time because it'll be used a lot. If it wasn't safe and comfortable, it'd be used less. Design shouldn't be ignored and the integrity of good design should be maintained. But if you move away from the designed purpose of a boat you often have to make some changes to the design - I think it's possible to change elements of a design while maintaining integrity. Others disagree with that, of course. Bad luck. Rick

Interesting, well presented, thoughts and ideas mate. Having a vessel that can withstand ocean passage and the perils they present, is to me, a million times more valuable than something that is built within specs which allow it to race other people around marks,(as fun as it is). However, maintaining the overall appearance,the appearance that caught my eye when I first saw her, and the design that goes into her fundemental seaworthiness as a folkboat, is something I consider worthy of preservation. Having said all that, I certainly will be adding some structural members athwartships, plus a watertight cabin, and a cockpit that water falls out of, because when the time comes when it truly counts, when every last bit of energy is spent and you are utilizing every last bit of backup , safety, heavy weather resources at your fingertips, the water is black and cold and those foaming crests way above and around you, threatening to pluck the drogue from your boat like someone removing a nosehair,and every journey from that stomach churning bottom of each trough as you are moving up to the top of the next one so fast it makes one wonder how you don't take air each time, when all this is goin on around you for so long it feels like you are trippin on some good ****, it is you and you alone, not the weight marshall on the race commitee or the guy that is measuring your rudder to make sure it's within the tolerances required,not the guy who fires the start gun or any of the young to middle aged good looking gals that have gathered for the day either in or out of boats, yes indeed, it is just you and your clenched ring aboard that rollercoaster and you alone that gives a damn about keepin her afloat. So, hell yeah, I reckon it is me who should put her together the way I see fit.
Wheeeewww, man. I cannot wait to go sailing.
And aah, I see we both think along the same lines.

[BarnacleGrim]

Some 6000 miles in a Folkboat is no small feat!

[RFNK]

Better stop sniffing that glue Kerouac! Rick

[floatingkiwi]

Kerouac?
Wasn't there a Jack Kerouac? I believe so. I read a book of his. Aaah, "on the road" or some bloody thing. A literary masterpiece. Quite popular through several generations of weird people.
I do not sniff glue. I remember guys at school doin it and I couldn't understand why and what they would do when their bike got a puncture.
I must say though, when I am hungry, epoxy will cabosil looks good and white lead, even better.

[floatingkiwi]

Kerry, just popped by to say gidday, I do love your work mate!!!
cheers, Greg

Hey Greg. It is good to see you mate.

[floatingkiwi]

Well, a bunch of fasteners are being replaced, so as I am already extracting some, I gave them the bending test as Rick has suggested.

One


Two


Three

Four

Five

Six

[floatingkiwi]

Seven.
Seven bends.Then I tested some brand new copper nails and they broke after 5 bends.
The result shows that old used fasteners, actually get better with age.LOL.
Right!
Kerry

[Candyfloss]

Air New Zealand flies to L.A.

[floatingkiwi]

They do. And as of a couple of years ago, they fly direct to SFO.

[Candyfloss]

So it's not a problem. All I need is time, money(lots of that!), and an invitation.

[RFNK]

Sounds to me like you've already got the invitation!! Rick

[floatingkiwi]

Ok, here it is. I am not planning anything right now, and when I do something, it is usually on short notice.I am aware that a voyage like this would take a little more time to plan than I am used to and if it does materialize, it will be more because it is meant to be, than because of any planning on my part.

You asking me if I need crew could be part of what is meant to be, and if that is the case then I have no choice but to say that I would be honoured to have you aboard.Someone who has known me for all they have read in this forum and is willing to entrust his life in my company on my boat, is ...damn it...I am deeply touched.

Anyway, let's see what the future holds. Time knows. I don't.

[Candyfloss]

Fair enough. Build on!

[floatingkiwi]

She just don't wobble around any where near as much now, with the new frames fastened in right down to the keel. She is starting to look and feel like a boat again. Pics soon.

[Candyfloss]

Just want to chime in with my opinion of bridge decks. Hate 'em. What do you need them for? Build a good strong companionway bulkhead & when you go offshore lock the washboards in place. I just hate climbing in, out & over a design feature that is simply in the way most of the time.
This is only my opinion.

[RFNK]

Just want to chime in with my opinion of bridge decks. Hate 'em.

The bridgedeck in our Folkboat strengthens the hull, allows the security of a self-draining cockpit and provides a nice place to sit out of the wind and spray. I love my bridgedeck and wouldn't have a sea-going boat without one. We can still be friends though!!! Rick

[floatingkiwi]

I agree with you both. As with all boat design, there is compromise.Pros and cons. I dismantled a bearboat recently,(it is where I got my frames), with a bridgedeck. Although it was a pain in the ass to get in and out, I believe it was a small price to pay to have the features Rick describes.I remember thinking, I want this thing, but I also want to add places to store things I might want whilst outside the cabin,in such a way that they have a permanent safe dry place to stay but can be reached easily from the cockpit.Binoculars, GPS, handheld radio,safety and fist aid stuff, some tools, grab bag,smokes and a cold beer.
I am thinking of closable cubbyholes designed to hold items from moving about, on the underside of the cabintop,either side of the companionway and opening toward it.
It also makes a great serving area between cook and consumer and there is good storage underneath aswell.
The one I got has a traveller built onto it. I am not sure about leaving that there but I am not at that stage yet.
Kerry

[Candyfloss]

To self drain your cockpit floor needs to be above the waterline & sloping fore or aft. You sit on the deck, inside the coamings. You can box in your coamings to sit on for a better view & a place to keep the sunscreen. The beer goes in a "milk crate" hanging on the lifelines, but I guess you won't have those. (BTW, I don't think Yachting N.Z. will let you leave here without them, regardless of where the boat was built. What about U.S.Coastguard? Will they?) Is there not room in a Folkboat for this arrangement? The traveler on Candyfloss was on the back of the cockpit. I loved it being so close to the helmsman & out of the way.

[Candyfloss]

Here's a picture looking out from the cabin into the cockpit while we was a-building.

[RFNK]

The mainsheet post (original) or traveller (most new Folkboats have this) sits in or across the cockpit. A traveller behind the cockpit would be very convenient but wouldn't suit a Folkboat, unfortunately. Rick

[Candyfloss]

A traveller across the middle of a cockpit is a heck of a compromise to have to make Rick. The back of the cockpit, in the companionway, or on the cabintop are all preferable to me. Sorry Kerry, if we are hijacking your thread I will desist this design discussion immediately & take up cudgels elsewhere.

[floatingkiwi]

People should feel free to disclose their opinions, facts, likes, dislikes etc where and when they want.
As long as we don't resort to the pointless act of argueing, please, feel free to say whatever you want.
Besides, I enjoy the company.

[RFNK]

But I actually agree with Candyfloss. I prefer the mainsheet post in the cockpit to having the cockpit cut in half by the traveller but I can understand why they have this for racing. Nevertheless, the post in the cockpit is still a pain - a traveller behind the cockpit would be much better ...... BUT the Folkboat boom doesn't suit that arrangement. Fastening the mainsheet to the very end of the boom would pull the end of the boom down and spoil the sail shape, rather than pulling it down further towards the middle, as designed. Boats derived from the Folkboat, e.g., Stella, have the mainsheet traveller behind the cockpit. I'm not sure what difference there is between a Stella boom and a Folkboat boom. I do know that with my aluminium rig I can get the sail very flat when I need to on a wind and when running I use a preventer arrangement to keep the boom down. A traveller would be more convenient for this but the preventer setup works well.

Have a look at these photos of boats on SF Bay in 2008. You'll notice that the cockpit is pretty cluttered but you'll also see how really you couldn't put a traveller behind the cockpit or above the companionway without significantly altering the rig:

http://www.sfbayfolkboats.org/2008%2...%20Photos.html


Rick

[floatingkiwi]

How about the traveller on the bridgedeck Rick? Did we cover that already?

[RFNK]

How about the traveller on the bridgedeck Rick? Did we cover that already?

No, that would interfere with access to the companionway. I do think the best arrangement for cruising, rather than racing, is the original design - a mainsheet post in about the centre of the cockpit. Rick

[Candyfloss]

A traveller on the floor of the cockpit? You could then move the mainsheet out of the center of the cockpit when at anchor, which is most of the time.
That looks like serious fun racing Rick. Thanks for that. Why do they keep saying they ain't pretty? Is there anywhere I can see a drawing of her lines & layout?

[floatingkiwi]

[floatingkiwi]

Here it is, the bridgedeck I was considering fitting to the old girl.


Would that traveller be any more in the way than if it was in the sole of the cockpit. Would it, would it? eh? eh?

[Candyfloss]

I've sailed on boats with the traveller there. Better than cutting the cockpit in half.

[RFNK]

Frames, floors look good Kerry. The traveller on the bridgedeck wouldn't work. Not only would it block the companionway but it would position the mainsheet on the wrong part of the boom. You should wander down to the club with all the Folkboats in SF Bay and take some measurements etc. Having the rig just right is very important on a Folkboat. Rick

[floatingkiwi]

Yeah, I know all the specs and stuff Rick.I have a full set of folkboat plans. Real ones.In Danish and Metric.Say, does anybody speak Danish?
This is how I see it. Because the mainsheet purchase arrangement would be higher up and shorter in length, it would give one more control over the position of the boom without having to tighten it too much.
What is your arguement,(without arguing of course),against what I just proposed, Rick?
Keep in mind it would only be several inches forward of where it would normally be in the cockpit.

[floatingkiwi]

A traveller on the floor of the cockpit? You could then move the mainsheet out of the center of the cockpit when at anchor, which is most of the time.
That looks like serious fun racing Rick. Thanks for that. Why do they keep saying they ain't pretty? Is there anywhere I can see a drawing of her lines & layout?

Do you want to see drawings of a folkboat? While we are lookin' at the plans, what is the post thing in the cockpit, visible in the two drawings in the bottom pic?Is this the post you mentioned earlier, Rick? How does it work?
And ah, CAN ANYBODY SPEAK DANISH?

[RFNK]

what is the post thing in the cockpit,

Yes, it's the mainsheet post. A fitting goes on top for the mainsheet block. I'll take a picture of ours next time I go out and post it for you. Rick

[Candyfloss]

These are the plans? Give me a couple of days, guys. I need to get my head around this latest lot of information. How much more fun are we allowed?

[RFNK]

Kerry
Where the hell did you get those plans? I'm really envious!! I'd really love to get a good set of Folkboat plans or drawings - to frame! Rick

[Candyfloss]

Framing? That's what I do. When I have to make money.
Danish? Does anyone speak Danish?
Why doesn't this boat have a kicker (boom vang)?

[BarnacleGrim]

And ah, CAN ANYBODY SPEAK DANISH?

Aye, what do you need to know?

[Peerie Maa]

Why doesn't this boat have a kicker (boom vang)?

New fangled dingy sailors gadget. Real boats relied on the weight of the boom