Yes,to elaborate, I suspected the same thing and have already inspected it and it is solid right through after being repaired already. The 5200 is just to seal the seam, mate.
What is the book you speak of, Ian?
Yes,to elaborate, I suspected the same thing and have already inspected it and it is solid right through after being repaired already. The 5200 is just to seal the seam, mate.
What is the book you speak of, Ian?
Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-17-2008 at 06:26 AM.
No problem with heeling in a carvel boat with external chainplates, of course! But I can imagine a very splashy situation with external chainplates in a clinker boat when heeling!
We've always used the term `high-build' for an epoxy based filler that we use to cover the grain of glass etc., so I thought you might be considering high-build epoxy for your hull. By the way, my recommendation and Nick's above is that you could consider an epoxy finish IF your boat was plywood, but that, as it isn't, you should not use an epoxy finish. For what it's worth, I use epoxy for almost all gluing and filling. I find it the most reliable and strongest for most applications. I try to avoiid eating or breathing in too much of the stuff but then I'm not overly fond of any of the alternatives for that either! By the way, I glassed our ply deck with epoxy reinforced glass, then used high-build epoxy to cover the grain of the glass, seams etc., then put a poly deck finish over that. I'm not happy with the deck finish - too slippery, so I'll be rubbing that back and replacing it this January (ref. mad dogs, Englishmen AND Ozzie Folkboat owners). Totally agree with the post above re your plank ends. Get it all dry, cut out well beyond the suspect areas, and replace the timber you've removed. I'd be using epoxy with the right filler for gluing for this and fastening it all with 316 screws, or silicon bronze. Use a heat gun to get it all warm and dry dry dry before gluing. Wet both surfaces with neat resin before adding the glue. Don't squeeze all the glue out when you fasten it down - too easy to do that with epoxy - it has a sneaky and remarkable way of escaping from places where you want it into places where you don't! DON'T use any of those products that claim to `saturate dried out timber/fill rotten timber/permeate well below the surface etc.' None of them work. Rick
Good advice. Yeah the only product I like to follow rot with is a chisel and hammer.Check out some of these beauties..
Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-17-2008 at 06:23 AM.
I love those D-class boats. I've admired them on trips to Hobart and the Channel many times. I guess they're to Hobart as the skiffs have been to Sydney Harbour, but more suitable for that very cold water! Great site - thanks a lot. SWMBO and lackey are off to Hobart in Feb for the Wooden Boat Festival. I'm sure most of the Ds will be there again. We're really looking forward to it! Rick
I do not know what being independently wealthy, has to do with sailing, if I know what it means at all.
FINALLY, I have managed to arrange something with some pics of "FLJUGA". That being her name.
You'll have a ball, Ian, finding things wrong which will keep me from sailing for a few many years yet.
Well they say labour of love. I agree.
http://fljugen.shutterfly.com.I am still organizing the site so excuse everything having no apparent order,
Here are some of Kerry's pics:
Kerry himself I presume:
Wots up here?
I took Ian's comment to mean that if planks are pulling away from the stem that the whole stem needs to be replaced. unless you're a much faster worker than me it doesn't look like you'll be sailing next season anyway. Lots of work to do still.
I don't like the idea of using epoxy or 5200 to glue those planks back to the stem. You'd just be looking for trouble down the road. Put it back the way it was built originally. Screw the plank ends to the stem then caulk the seam with cotton and pay it with seam compound. I didn't see a pic with a detail of the planks in question. Maybe I didn't look closely enough.
It's a big project but one worth tackling. In no time this will be you:
(Me in my Ostkust)
YEEEAAAHHHHH> I like optimistic, can do attitude and I like what you have done with me pics. There are some with the stem work, I will dig em out and I have found a little more rot and it is slowly becoming apparent that indeed the stem may be replaced. No worries, I love messin around with wood. That last shot of me is a moment pondering all the options offered to me, something always made a little more enjoyable with a cold one, by jingo.
Hey what sort of setup is that mainsheet backstay combo. Is that standard on the Ostkust?
Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-17-2008 at 07:54 PM.
I drew up a quick sketch of how I want the new interior for Nina. Perhaps it will give you some inspiration for your own Folkboat. This is far from a purist approach, though. This design is first and foremost a two-person comfort live-aboard. It does lack in day sailing passenger capacity, though.
(sorry about the colour, I didn't have any bleached baking paper for tracing)
1947 Nordic Folkboat "Nina"
Here's a picture of Pipsqueak
Thanks for the pics Kerry - you've got some work ahead of you but it'll be worth it! Remember what I said about removing the chainplate fastenings? Forget all that! It's a bit late by the look of your hull at this stage. Rick PS Sorry this is a bit big! I'm not having much luck trying to make it smaller! PPS Somehow the picture shrank the day after I posted it. Thanks to whoever did that!
Last edited by RFNK; 11-19-2008 at 04:57 AM.
Wow, she's beautiful, Rick. Great shot.
Kerry, the backstay is just a normal setup, it's separate from the mainsheet. The mainsheet is double ended, two blocks on the boom and four on the deck. In the picture the topping lift is wrapped around the backstay, oops.
Thanks Steven but look who's talking! Your boat looks wonderful and that's a great shot!! I saved the photo of Pipsqueak in Photobucket as only 400 pixels wide - do you know what dimensions I should use? Your photo looks about the right size to me. When I first put it on it was 1024 wide but it's come out on the WB Forum just as large again.
You know, I'm a bit envious of Kerry in a way. He's got a heap of work to do but, as he says he has loads of time, he's going to have a ball and he doesn't need to worry about whether to take it back any further, so to speak! By the way, the advice I gave him about gluing the plank ends as well as fastening is based on my view that if a boat's going to be pounding into swells and the plank ends are a bit old or suspect, then it's better to go for strength. I do take your point about sticking with the original but I do feel quite good about some of the reinforcing we've used when heading out through Port Stephens heads. Rick
Last edited by RFNK; 11-18-2008 at 08:29 AM.
Wow, you got a project on your hands - do it right and you will have a great boat!
Does anybody have actual plans for one of these things?
Kerry, it looks like you've done the hardest part of the job, stripping the paint from the inside planks and frames, well deserving of a decent beer mate!! (so what's that crap you're drinking in the photo?)
You'll have no doubt seen the following site but I have found some of the ideas in the new Folkboats to be quite inspirational and plan to "pinch" a few myself. I've drooled over these at the Sanctuary Cove boat show (generally because they are one of the few bots worth looking at there), and the guy that brings them in has (or had?) a nice H28 up in Brisbane so I've found some mutual interest there.
"Be who you are and say what you feel...
Because those that matter...don't mind...
And those that mind.... don't matter."
We're the only species on earth that claims to have a god...and the only species on earth that lives as if we don't have a god.
(US Journalist Paul Kelly on advice from the crayfish)
There are various resources on the web for plans, but these might get you started:
" DON'T use any of those products that claim to `saturate dried out timber/fill rotten timber/permeate well below the surface etc.' None of them work. Rick"
Does this mean that CPES is no good?
These products, at best, will saturate a little of the timber below the surface but the penetration is really rarely very much. If the timber is moist it's unlikely to penetrate at all. The CPES won't displace moisture and it certainly won't strengthen rotten timber. it won't stop rot that's already there either. It will stop further moisture penetration but if you're going to glue this timber later on, you'll then have trouble getting a bond. Better to wait til you do the fastening, after you've really removed any suspect timber and replaced it with new, glued in timber (graved in, scarfed, whatever) then, if you are not going to use glue, apply some waterproofing product like CPES/primer etc. (only if you're not gluing!) before fastening OR, if you are gluing, heat up the surfaces well with a heat gun until all is hot and dry then paint with neat resin. Then use the glue (epoxy with glue filler) and fasteners. That way you get the best chemical and physical bond. Rick
I'm in general agreement about Stephen's view that a traditional boat should be restored in the traditional way. I think whenever this can be done, it should be. But I think maybe I differ a little in regard to a boat like yours which has really been hammered by neglect. Unless you're going to replace every plank, frame etc., then you're going to be relying on a lot of old and sometimes cracked timber. You absolutely must remove any sign of rot but it's just not going to be feasible to replace every worn, cracked and weathered plank etc. You'd be better off starting from scratch. In my view, unless you've got lots of cash and helpers, you're going to need to reinforce what you have with glue (epoxy), fibreglass and some other modern materials, in various places, to make the boat seaworthy. That's if you really want a seaworthy boat rather than a museum piece, of course!. The trick, I think, is to use these materials in ways that don't make future work impossible, hide remaining problems (such as rot) or turn the boat into something it isn't. I mean, you wouldn't dream of glassing the hull or anything silly like that but, using epoxy fillets here and there to shore up joints, using epoxy-reinforced dynel or glass over your deck and taking that over onto the sheer strake etc., using epoxy plugs when driving screws or bolts into the timber, using plywood rather than planking for your deck to add strength etc., these are just steps that make sense from the point of view of seaworthiness and longevity. Also, although you'll enjoy fixing up your boat, you don't want to have to turn around and do it all again - ever!
You can make your bow and stern really strong if you get everything dry, remove all rot, replace ruined timber, fasten it really well but also reinforce the fastening with epoxy. The epoxy will fill gaps, glue everything tightly if you use it properly and protect the remaining timber if you've really managed to dry it out inside. Please do seek other opinions on this but bear in mind that your boat is made entirely of timber that is mostly very weathered. Just have a look at the damage where the chainplates were! Rick
Last edited by RFNK; 11-19-2008 at 04:38 AM.
I appreciate and understand all you are saying, the best product I know of, to follow rot with, is my chisel and hammer.
I was going to ply the deck and glue canvas on with TB2.
What is Dynel,excuse my lack of product knowledge, and what do you mean by epoxy plugs when bolting and screwing.
I went and purchased some epoxy system and cabosil,by the way.
I don't want to use any expensive sealers like CPES, I would rather just make nice and dry and clean and paint her. Try and keep things well aired and light, know what I mean?
Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-19-2008 at 08:42 AM. Reason: added sentences
Hey, those pictures are great. One word about 5200, it can cost the earth. If a job looks like it needs 10 tubes, it probably will require 30.
Last edited by w.FL.co.; 11-19-2008 at 12:56 PM. Reason: One, fantastic, extra point to make.
And another thing...Most marine outfits around here sell that stuff for around twenty dollars. Home Depot.Ten Bucks.
Dynel is lighter and more flexible than fibreglass and, I think, less brittle but it's not as strong as fibreglass. It's a cloth that, like fibreglass, you apply by saturating it with epoxy or polyester resin (but don't use polyester resin on your boat!). Dynel seems to be highly regarded on this forum so I'll leave it to others to talk about its specific advantages. We're very happy with the glass we used.
Epoxy plugs - this comes from the Gougeon Bros, inventors of the West System, and it's excellent. If you put stainless fastenings straight into timber, especially on a deck or below the waterline, you're allowing moisture to seep in too and this will cause corrosion and damage the timber. Stainless in wet timber will corrode and the wet timber will go soft and rot. So, work out where you're going to locate the screw or bolt etc., drill an oversize hole and fill it with epoxy and glue filler. Then, once it's cured, drill for the screw or drill and tap if you're using machine screws, and put the fastening in. I usually make the plug about 1/2" deep but less if the timber is thin, of course! I like the fastening to bite into the timber rather than relying only on the integrity of the plug. I add some epoxy resin or Sikaflex to the fastener when I put it in to ensure a perfect seal. I usually create a little countersink in the epoxy plug too when I'm putting it in with Sikaflex so that the Sikaflex forms a little washer under the screw head. You can find all the Gougeon Bros recommendations for working with wood and epoxy online - great resource!
When I want to seal timber (ends of plywood etc.) I always just use neat epoxy resin. Get the timber hot and dry - not usually a problem in summer in Oz! Rick
And be very, very careful with the epoxy. Tyvek suit, poly-coated not paper, double gloves, respirator and goggles.
I got careless and developed a sever allergy to the stuff.
Yeah, good advice guys, I have used epoxy before,( actually, I'll get some pics together on "Fljugens" site), on a dory I built a year ago. Turned out real good. She is my little slough workhorse, enabling me to get into incredibly narrow reaches of otherwise inaccessible wetlands.I gather timber and fittings of all descripti0on from wrecks scattered about the Delta of which there are plenty, if ya don't mind getting your hands dirty, I'm talkin' real dirty, man have I been stuck in mud a few times.Saves me money,( I don't have much of), to obtain, what looks grey and rotten on the outside,some of the most beautiful grains I have seen in mahogany that has lasted the life of the vessel it came from plus the years of the tide and mud washing around it. Seems a shame to waste it.
Hey Rick, The plugs could be moulded into two countersunk cavities meeting midtimber, resulting in an impossible to move either way fixing point,yes?
Kinda like this, ><
Like my woodcarving?
Cool, I just figured out the way of the pic posting, thanks to the help of Thorne, I believe.
I guess you could but it's not necessary and it's a big enough pain having to make the plugs just on one side! If you really need that sort of binding power then I'd use machine screws with a nut and nice big backing washer or backing plate. Actually, that's another tip for you - always use oversize washers when fastening through plywood or softish timber. I often make up tufnol (layers of cloth compressed and bonded with phenolic resin - stuff they used to use for circuit boards in valve radios etc.) or stainless backing plates. I like using tufnol - when I drill it or cut it it makes my workshop smell like a toxic waste dump!
I've known a few people who just can't work with epoxy due to allergic reaction. The suggestion of a protective suit and respirator is certainly good advice - I believe these allergies can be pretty gruesome. I'm pretty sure phenolic isn't very healthy either! Rick
What was the glass you used, that you said you were really happy with?
It's just fibreglass but I can't remember the weight I used. It would be the grade heavier than used for surfboards but I can't remember the exact weight, sorry. I'm in Vietnam at present so I can't duck out to the shed to check! It's only the standard weave - don't use the more complex weaves as it's unnecessary and harder to get good saturation and bonding with the heavier weaves. Thinking about it, but without really knowing, I suspect that's why dynel is popular. Dynel is thinner and would bond a little easier I suspect, but I had no difficulty with the glass. I've since arranged a couple of fittings differently and noted that the glass is bonding perfectly. You need to scoop out the deck a bit (I used a sanding pad on an angle grinder) where the seams in the glass sit so that you don't get ridges where the glass overlaps. Make sure the deck is really clean and dry and then just wet the glass down without letting the epoxy pool at all. I use a squeegee but others prefer rollers. Once the epoxy has just gone hard, put another coat on to fill the grain of the glass. After that, hit it with high-build and sand it all smooth, ready for your decking finish. I arranged all deck fastenings and put epoxy plugs in for each fastening prior to glassing - make sure you measure and record where the plugs go carefully though! If you haven't glassed anything before, I'd get someone experienced to give you a kickstart or get a good manual. Rick
Yeah, I told ya I built a boat outa ply and glass last year,I'll go round up some pics with the Mrs puter. mine is still a bit crook.
For repairs of all kinds, I recommend Wooden Boat Renovation by Jim Trefethen. It expands on what RFNK says about the use of epoxy on traditional boats. Cost you about thirty bucks but it's worth every penny.
Here we go.Found some more oics
See more at http://fljugen.shutterfly.com.
The wedge where the outboard mounts and the water spoilers ( chines ) were added after the glass, then I painted over that.
The cap on the gunwales, I ripped down out of an old mast, (which was all busted up), and glued together with TB2, good old TB2, I love that stuff. It has shown no sign of letting go, to date.
Vietnam, what the heck are you doin' there, Rick?
And Thorne. What is the historical reenactment you participate in? Is it for a job for the Historical Society or the movie industry or just for fun? Sounds interesting. I like history and old stuff.
Boat you built looks great! But what is it?
I work as a consultant to a government department in Vietnam, at present. We've been here for two years but we're heading home to the Land of Oz at the end of this year. Time to do some sailing and get busy on the next boat project. We have a Twister that needs restoring now! I'll post some pics of that sometime but i might start a new thread for that. I've never done anything with carvel construction, funnily enough so I've, again, a lot to learn! Rick
It's a dory, I am not sure exactly what kind it is but it was easy to make and is very strong and looks like it'll last a long time.
Is it proper to start a new thread when the subject changes or can you keep one thread goin for all kinds of stuff.Is it OK to have more than one thread? I like the way people have contributed to this thread and would like to keep it goin' for as long as it is appropriate. What are the guidelines or unwritten rules, here?
I've never done anything with carvel construction, funnily enough so I've, again, a lot to learn! Rick[/quote]
Mate, taking on a job that one knows everything there is to know about , to me, seems boring.
Hey, those shutterfly photos are nice. The last photo is of a small pile of (what looks like) Live Oak. What are your plans?
I don't know what the rules for starting new threads are but I think people interested in Folkboats would be attracted to this one whereas people particularly interested in Twisters might be interested in another with that title. I think conversations/interactions should keep to one thread rather than be spread around different threads - that could become fairly confusing! I think you should keep this thread going - it's already been really interesting for me and, hopefully, others. The tone of this thread is really good too - anyone can put up a suggestion or an idea and have it challenged without causing WW3! I'm amazed at how badly some people on some threads of this forum react to people questioning their ideas - where would we be if no one did that? You're also spot on about restoring the Twister. If I already knew how to do it, I wouldn't be very interested - too much like playing solitaire! Apart from the fact that the Twister is a very fine boat, of course! I'll send some pics on this thread anyway - I just need to extract them from storage etc. By the way, out of interest, are any of the planks on your Folkboat split longitudinally? If so, where? Also, have you drawn out any of the copper rivets yet - what are they like? Rick
Last edited by RFNK; 11-23-2008 at 01:09 AM.
Once again, thank you so much for your encouragement and inspiration,Something I never expected from an Aussie!!
( JUST KIDDING EVERYONE),heehee. No, really mate, ya make it all worthwhile, you're a good man, Aaaah the boards split longtidunally, yes. I have two or three boards showing daylight and as they are intended to be rigid from one edge to the other I was gonna put fibreglass mesh both sides and build the gap fair with epoxy or this 2 part black and yellow, hard as nails, stuff I have, after drawing them tight again with some good SS screws through the edge.Tight to themselves, not their neighbouring strakes, now.By Crikey.The rivets,( or roves so I thought), are fine and any looseness will take up in reimmersion I am sure. If not, I will do something then.
Whatya reckon mate?
Its nice knowing I aint gonna start a war over hearing the truth, eh mate?
Here is an example, the worst one.
It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.
The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.
How are your timbers doing? I found two broken ones under the galley and and one half-broken near the stern. So far the boat isn't leaking, but it's better to fix these things sooner than later.
I'm not sure what's best, steam bending or laminating? Steam bending is certainly more true to the original and much less messy.
1947 Nordic Folkboat "Nina"
I fully agree with Nick on this. I actually thought you'd have one or two of these. The upside of real planks over plywood is the swelling you get that forms a natural seal between planks, so no need for glue, but the downside is the risk of splitting from in-line fastenings (presumably) combined with the stresses of a fairly flexible hull. Your hull's douglas fir (what we call oregon) isn't it, or is it western red cedar? Either way, it shouldn't be too hard to get the necessary length and quality of timber there would it? It would be hard in Oz - you'd probably need to make it up from shorter lengths - far from ideal for this kind of construction.
Re frames: I don't find laminating with epoxy messy at all, in fact I find it remarkably easy. I have a big roll of thin plastic that I use to wrap the glued up piece in prior to clamping. This just peels away from the cured epoxy and leaves very little mess. For the thin strips in the laminated frame you can use harder timber that should be less prone to breaking again. Laminated timber is really strong and very stable, but, of course, it's not as traditional.
Here's a couple of pictures of Windrose, our new Twister - the next project. She's timber, probably mahogany but I'm not sure yet, the transom is rotten but I think the planking is okay. She's been very neglected for quite a few years so now it's time to give her a new life.
Last edited by RFNK; 11-23-2008 at 09:47 AM.