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Thread: A folkboat found me

  1. #36
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    NYFK
    Is that high-build epoxy you're talking about? If it is, be careful. If you put it onto timber that's going to swell, move, shrink etc., then the high-build will crack up. If all your timber is absolutely stable, then, make sure it's really dry and clean, paint it with neat epoxy resin then put on the high-build once the resin has gone off - do it within a day at the most to get a chemical bond otherwise you'll have to roughen it up to key in the high-build. If it's not epoxy high-build that you're talking about, then what is it? If you're painting below the water line on the outside, then you really need to get most of the old antifoul off rather than trying to smooth it all out with gunk. You'll be glad you did in the long run. Once smooth, then use a primer that'll go over remaining old antifoul - I used a Jotun product that has aluminium in it - sorry, don't recall the name, and I'm not sure I'd use it again. It was silver and quite thick but I wasn't happy with its performance after the boat went back into the water - the primer seemed to let go in too many places. This was probably due to the timber swelling after three years out of the water. It's easy enough to find a good, all-purpose marine primer but make sure that it's one that's made to go over old paint remains etc., unless you're planning to take the hull right back to bare timber. Also check to see that it can flex a bit. I've since used a different primer and antifoul system that again, sorry, I can't remember the name of but it's an Australian product anyway that's probably not available in the US.

    Sanding all the old antifoul right off is a horrible task but if you are actually going to paint the hull with an epoxy finish, then that's what you'll have to do. I have seen it done on a clinker Folkboat and it has held up really well for quite a few years but it's a really big job. If I was doing our boat again though, that's what I'd be doing, simply because it works so well. Our boat though, and the one that I know of with the epoxy finish, are built with plywood planking and all laps are glued with resorcinol. If your boat doesn't have glued laps, I wouldn't even think about using an epoxy finish. It's highly likely that it'll crack up. Why didn't the other boat's finish crack up when it was put back in the water? Probably because the epoxy finish sealed the hull too well. It's possible, of course, that, if this is actually the case, then down the track, as the epoxy does crack a bit, which it must eventually, then the swelling timber will crack it more. We'll see! Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 11-16-2008 at 06:45 AM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    NYFK
    Our boat though, and the one that I know of with the epoxy finish, are built with plywood planking and all laps are glued with resorcinol. If your boat doesn't have glued laps, I wouldn't even think about using an epoxy finish. It's highly likely that it'll crack up.
    Absolutely correct. The cores of the ply running across the width of the strakes prevent movement caused by changes in humidity, and the glued laps prevent movement caused by the boat working in a sea way, so those hulls will be stable enough to take a brittle finish. In a previous post you have said that she is copper fastened so I would stick with a more elastic filler and paint finish.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    RFNK: It sounds like you're confusing the tiny avatar photo, which *is* hosted on the forum server, with the text photos, which must be hosted on some other website. WBF doesn't have the room to host all the boat porn people want to share.

    Photobucket, Shutterfly and the like are the sort of sites that offer this capability. so, right click on an image, select properties, and copy the web address of the photo you want - works on any photo on the web- and past it in the photo application at the top of the WBF reply panel.

    Try to keep the images you post within 100 Kb, because there are lots of people still on dial up. wooden boat people tend to be neo-luddites, lol.
    Hey! It's MY Hughniverse!

  4. #39
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Floatingkiwi, losing a long reply is frustrating, sure; I like to compose stuff in wordpad, or some other editor, and paste it to WBF.

    Here's a folkboat 'clone', a Frisco Flyer - built in Hong Kong by Cheoy Lee, Teak carvel panking. The Folkboat purists accept these reluctantly, but they have a following well deserved.

    Hey! It's MY Hughniverse!

  5. #40
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Hey, I just got to my computer and my thread is getting longer. I like that.
    Rick, I love your input,( and everyone elses),and it gives me quite a thrilling relief to be reading sound advice that matches what I have in mind and or what I have already done,(this aint the first time), beauty.
    Sounds like I'm dodging all the bullets so far. The hull already is down to bare wood on the outside. Sitting in the tide untouched for the last five years saved me a lot of work by the look of things, eh? As far as using epoxy down there, I didn't mention epoxy, did somone mention epoxy, Who mentioned epoxy, I like the sound of the word epoxy, nice ring, epoxy, epoxy, but actually using it seems to give me an uneasy feeling of finality, like, once it's on there is no turning back, be sure it's the right thing. Epoxy epoxy epoxy,LOL.
    And the planks are not plywood either, YAY. So I could use epoxy if I chose to, right,aaaaaaahh? No, because, as you say Rick, and I agree, the laps are free of sealer\adhesives, and will stay that way.I was thinking of getting something that'll cover the cast iron keel and the wood at the same time,do they make such a thing. I didn't actually go shopping yet anyway.
    Hey nice photo there,Hugh.Now there is another set of options. A masthead rig and a bigger cabin than the purist version,hhhhmmmmm, is that your boat?
    I like the look of that cabin. Is that mast keel or deckstepped?
    I already have a camera, its my computer that has contribu..... Hey I think I have some pics to come.
    Be back shortly
    Kerry Emmerson
    Say BarnacleGrim,did you notice my avatar pic? The crew are wearing horned helmets.
    Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-16-2008 at 02:29 PM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    I found this online somewhere.Kerry

    MessageLeon
    Guest





    Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:20 am Post subject: Titebond III Does not Perform Wood Magazine this month has a great article comparing the major brand
    glues. The 6 page article tests for strength and water resistance.

    In a water resistant test, glued joints were submerged in water for 24
    hours. Surprisingly Titebond III scored worse than Titebond II. The TB II
    joint held up to about 300 PSI. TB III failed at about 200 PSI. So I guess
    you should save your money. TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
    II.

    There was a discussion a few weeks ago about the TB III compared to
    Polyurethanes for water resistance. Polyurethanes win. In the same test as
    mentioned above, the Elmer's ProBond and Gorilla Glue Polyurethane joint
    held up to almost 1000 PSI. TB III held up to 200 PSI.


    I think I will send an email to Franklin and see what they have to say about
    this article.Back to top

  7. #42
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Quote Originally Posted by floatingkiwi View Post
    Hey nice photo there,Hugh.Now there is another set of options. A masthead rig and a bigger cabin than the purist version,hhhhmmmmm, is that your boat?
    I like the look of that cabin. Is that mast keel or deckstepped?
    yup, mine; keel stepped.

    Cheoy Lee did produce a fractional rig, called it Pacific Clipper. I think the primary market for these boats was the San Francisco Area, because of a local importer. Look around for a class association, if you want to see various ideas for rig and layout...or maybe even used sails 'n' stuff. There was a doghouse version, in 'glass, too.

    Folkboats were/are such a successful design that there a lot of take-offs, and possibly lots of applicable parts that might be available.

    Al Mason "Ostkust" is one example of a similar design, possibly even an improvement....
    Hey! It's MY Hughniverse!

  8. #43
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Doghouse?

  9. #44
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Larks
    Please do send the pic! Must make for pretty wet sailing when on a wind!! Rick
    No worries, I'd been looking at external chain plates for ideas on doing the same to 'no name' H28, (not clinker) and have a memory of this particular one having a questionably smallish external stainless chain plate. I'm thinking of getting some bronze ones cast with a bit of shape to them for mine.

    However I hadn't thought of the issue of kicking up a bit of spray on a heel, I've seen a few H28's with external chain plates which are reasonably forward but probably quite similar to the Folkboat in position so probably an issue worth considering.
    Larks

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    RUN! RUN!! Don't let her get her claws into you or you'll be finished!
    "Congress doesn't regulate Wall Street, Wall Street regulates Congress."

    MAKE WAY! MAKE WAY! "I have heard of some kind of men that put quarrels purposely on others."

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  11. #46
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Kerry, just a note on the font that you are using, I don't know about anyone else but I find it quite hard to read (even with my glasses on), you may like to consider using the forums standard font to make it a bit easier on us old farts.
    cheers
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    For you, mate.Absolutely.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    A couple of boards have come loose from the stem about halfway down from the bow to the cast iron. I was gonna 5200 and rescrew them in. Should I prime that with an oil based primer first or wash it with soapy water,maybe?
    Kerry
    Larks, I feel honoured one would care so much, Thanks

  14. #49
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Quote Originally Posted by floatingkiwi View Post
    A couple of boards have come loose from the stem about halfway down from the bow to the cast iron. I was gonna 5200 and rescrew them in. Should I prime that with an oil based primer first or wash it with soapy water,maybe?
    Kerry
    Larks, I feel honoured one would care so much, Thanks

    I'm always interested in Folkboats -
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  15. #50
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    5200, wonderful as it is, will not solve this problem. First figure out why the plank ends have come loose from the stem - if this is indeed what you mean. Usually this means a bit of softness and rot in the stem. Our host has an excellent book on repair of this problem.

    Get it.

    Study.

    Don't plan on sailing next summer unless you happen to be independently wealthy.

    G'luck

  16. #51
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Yes,to elaborate, I suspected the same thing and have already inspected it and it is solid right through after being repaired already. The 5200 is just to seal the seam, mate.
    What is the book you speak of, Ian?
    Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-17-2008 at 05:26 AM.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Larks
    No problem with heeling in a carvel boat with external chainplates, of course! But I can imagine a very splashy situation with external chainplates in a clinker boat when heeling!

    NYFK
    We've always used the term `high-build' for an epoxy based filler that we use to cover the grain of glass etc., so I thought you might be considering high-build epoxy for your hull. By the way, my recommendation and Nick's above is that you could consider an epoxy finish IF your boat was plywood, but that, as it isn't, you should not use an epoxy finish. For what it's worth, I use epoxy for almost all gluing and filling. I find it the most reliable and strongest for most applications. I try to avoiid eating or breathing in too much of the stuff but then I'm not overly fond of any of the alternatives for that either! By the way, I glassed our ply deck with epoxy reinforced glass, then used high-build epoxy to cover the grain of the glass, seams etc., then put a poly deck finish over that. I'm not happy with the deck finish - too slippery, so I'll be rubbing that back and replacing it this January (ref. mad dogs, Englishmen AND Ozzie Folkboat owners). Totally agree with the post above re your plank ends. Get it all dry, cut out well beyond the suspect areas, and replace the timber you've removed. I'd be using epoxy with the right filler for gluing for this and fastening it all with 316 screws, or silicon bronze. Use a heat gun to get it all warm and dry dry dry before gluing. Wet both surfaces with neat resin before adding the glue. Don't squeeze all the glue out when you fasten it down - too easy to do that with epoxy - it has a sneaky and remarkable way of escaping from places where you want it into places where you don't! DON'T use any of those products that claim to `saturate dried out timber/fill rotten timber/permeate well below the surface etc.' None of them work. Rick

  18. #53
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Good advice. Yeah the only product I like to follow rot with is a chisel and hammer.Check out some of these beauties..
    www.virtue.id.au/Onedesign/index.htm
    Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-17-2008 at 05:23 AM.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    I love those D-class boats. I've admired them on trips to Hobart and the Channel many times. I guess they're to Hobart as the skiffs have been to Sydney Harbour, but more suitable for that very cold water! Great site - thanks a lot. SWMBO and lackey are off to Hobart in Feb for the Wooden Boat Festival. I'm sure most of the Ds will be there again. We're really looking forward to it! Rick

  20. #55
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    I do not know what being independently wealthy, has to do with sailing, if I know what it means at all.
    FINALLY, I have managed to arrange something with some pics of "FLJUGA". That being her name.
    You'll have a ball, Ian, finding things wrong which will keep me from sailing for a few many years yet.
    Well they say labour of love. I agree.

    http://fljugen.shutterfly.com.I am still organizing the site so excuse everything having no apparent order,
    Cheers. Kerry

  21. #56
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Here are some of Kerry's pics:





    Kerry himself I presume:




    Wots up here?






    I took Ian's comment to mean that if planks are pulling away from the stem that the whole stem needs to be replaced. unless you're a much faster worker than me it doesn't look like you'll be sailing next season anyway. Lots of work to do still.
    I don't like the idea of using epoxy or 5200 to glue those planks back to the stem. You'd just be looking for trouble down the road. Put it back the way it was built originally. Screw the plank ends to the stem then caulk the seam with cotton and pay it with seam compound. I didn't see a pic with a detail of the planks in question. Maybe I didn't look closely enough.

    It's a big project but one worth tackling. In no time this will be you:



    (Me in my Ostkust)


    Steven

  22. #57
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    YEEEAAAHHHHH> I like optimistic, can do attitude and I like what you have done with me pics. There are some with the stem work, I will dig em out and I have found a little more rot and it is slowly becoming apparent that indeed the stem may be replaced. No worries, I love messin around with wood. That last shot of me is a moment pondering all the options offered to me, something always made a little more enjoyable with a cold one, by jingo.
    Hey what sort of setup is that mainsheet backstay combo. Is that standard on the Ostkust?
    Last edited by floatingkiwi; 11-17-2008 at 06:54 PM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    I drew up a quick sketch of how I want the new interior for Nina. Perhaps it will give you some inspiration for your own Folkboat. This is far from a purist approach, though. This design is first and foremost a two-person comfort live-aboard. It does lack in day sailing passenger capacity, though.



    (sorry about the colour, I didn't have any bleached baking paper for tracing)
    1947 Nordic Folkboat "Nina"

  24. #59
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Hi all
    Here's a picture of Pipsqueak




    Thanks for the pics Kerry - you've got some work ahead of you but it'll be worth it! Remember what I said about removing the chainplate fastenings? Forget all that! It's a bit late by the look of your hull at this stage. Rick PS Sorry this is a bit big! I'm not having much luck trying to make it smaller! PPS Somehow the picture shrank the day after I posted it. Thanks to whoever did that!
    Last edited by RFNK; 11-19-2008 at 03:57 AM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Wow, she's beautiful, Rick. Great shot.

    Kerry, the backstay is just a normal setup, it's separate from the mainsheet. The mainsheet is double ended, two blocks on the boom and four on the deck. In the picture the topping lift is wrapped around the backstay, oops.

    Steven

  26. #61
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Thanks Steven but look who's talking! Your boat looks wonderful and that's a great shot!! I saved the photo of Pipsqueak in Photobucket as only 400 pixels wide - do you know what dimensions I should use? Your photo looks about the right size to me. When I first put it on it was 1024 wide but it's come out on the WB Forum just as large again.

    You know, I'm a bit envious of Kerry in a way. He's got a heap of work to do but, as he says he has loads of time, he's going to have a ball and he doesn't need to worry about whether to take it back any further, so to speak! By the way, the advice I gave him about gluing the plank ends as well as fastening is based on my view that if a boat's going to be pounding into swells and the plank ends are a bit old or suspect, then it's better to go for strength. I do take your point about sticking with the original but I do feel quite good about some of the reinforcing we've used when heading out through Port Stephens heads. Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 11-18-2008 at 07:29 AM.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Wow, you got a project on your hands - do it right and you will have a great boat!

  28. #63
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Does anybody have actual plans for one of these things?

  29. #64
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Kerry, it looks like you've done the hardest part of the job, stripping the paint from the inside planks and frames, well deserving of a decent beer mate!! (so what's that crap you're drinking in the photo?)

    You'll have no doubt seen the following site but I have found some of the ideas in the new Folkboats to be quite inspirational and plan to "pinch" a few myself. I've drooled over these at the Sanctuary Cove boat show (generally because they are one of the few bots worth looking at there), and the guy that brings them in has (or had?) a nice H28 up in Brisbane so I've found some mutual interest there.
    http://folkboats.com.au/new_boats.html
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  30. #65
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    You Folkboat types are lucky, there are lots of online resources. That Aussie site is very cool. here is the Nordic Folkboat Association site: http://www.folkboat.com/ and the British Folkboat Association page: http://www.folkboats.com/
    These guys should know where to get plans.


    Steven

  31. #66
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    well deserving of a decent beer mate!! (so what's that crap you're drinking in the photo?)
    Yeah, that almost looks like a Bud you've got there.


    Steven

  32. #67
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    There are various resources on the web for plans, but these might get you started:




  33. #68
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Yeah, that almost looks like a Bud you've got there.


    Steven

    Of course

  34. #69
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    " DON'T use any of those products that claim to `saturate dried out timber/fill rotten timber/permeate well below the surface etc.' None of them work. Rick"

    Does this mean that CPES is no good?

  35. #70
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    Default Re: A folkboat found me

    These products, at best, will saturate a little of the timber below the surface but the penetration is really rarely very much. If the timber is moist it's unlikely to penetrate at all. The CPES won't displace moisture and it certainly won't strengthen rotten timber. it won't stop rot that's already there either. It will stop further moisture penetration but if you're going to glue this timber later on, you'll then have trouble getting a bond. Better to wait til you do the fastening, after you've really removed any suspect timber and replaced it with new, glued in timber (graved in, scarfed, whatever) then, if you are not going to use glue, apply some waterproofing product like CPES/primer etc. (only if you're not gluing!) before fastening OR, if you are gluing, heat up the surfaces well with a heat gun until all is hot and dry then paint with neat resin. Then use the glue (epoxy with glue filler) and fasteners. That way you get the best chemical and physical bond. Rick

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