Redwing update

[RFNK]

It should be noted that it's a hollow mast ....

Rick

[WX]

[WX]

Gumboot weather today but I managed to get the last of the keel bolts fitted.


Using the car jack and steel beam method I got the keel up onto some short lengths of gal water pipe and started moving it closer to the shed. I've stopped though for a bit of a think about it. I realised I didn't have any plan in mind other than moving it...and I do have to think about it.

[andrewpatrol]

It should be noted that it's a hollow mast ....

Rick

Thanks Rick yes mine is hollow too but with blocks at stress positions so I'll have to make allowances. I'm storing up info for the event. Meanwhile I'll post an update on my build soon as I can figure out pics posting.

[RFNK]

Braze a little hole saw to a bit of long, narrow pipe, or a spade bit to a bit of steel rod and ........ shove 'er up the guts (so to speak)

If you don't intend having other lines running through your mast, you can actually do without the conduit. It's handy when it comes time to replace the wiring but it's not essential. In your case, it's probably going to be easier to just drill holes through your blocks and poke the wire through with some stiff wire.

I reckon wire through the mast is always going to be a better long-term option than running it down the outside.

Rick

[WX]

Lots of boats have triangular bases and if you've got them really well fastened then sure, see how they go. The problem with stanchions is that people haul themselves aboard with them, even when just stepping onto the boat from a wharf, and the leverage, of course, works against the base. With only three fasteners, the one that happens to take most of the pressure, gets a bit loose and this allows the base to rock on the other two fasteners. With four fasteners, you don't have anything like the amount of point loading when pressure is applied, and you don't get any rocking if one happens to be strained.

Walk through a marina some day and look at how many stanchions are bent, and then consider the pressure that must have applied to the base fasteners.

Good backing is always important but if you've got these bases well backed, then I agree that it's best to see how they go. Just make sure you don't let any idiots on board. Oh bugger, and I was hoping for a sail on this boat one day .....

Rick

As luck would have it the stanchion base I haven't put is just fo'ard of the cockpit on the Portside, which will be the one to cop the most leverage I would imagine. So I've ordered a good strong one from Whitworths...I ordered my depth sounder as well.
It took some stuffing around but I've found a Wattyl paints outlet up at Varsity Lakes that stocks the Epinamel two pack primer, so I'll take a drive up there sometime during the week. 4 litres a bit under $130.
No photos at the moment, there's nothing happening that's worth one, unless you want to see my first aid kit shelf.

[WX]

Gave her a scrub down this morning.Looks like my generator may have died, it backfired and stopped today.

[PeterSibley]

and you missed the Aldi Sale with it's $200 generators by 3 weeks . Bugger.

[WX]

The Genny is not dead...luckily. I pulled the plug this arvo and it was completely clogged with carbon, gave it a clean and popped it back. It started with a lot of blue smoke for a bit. I think the problem is not enough air around it where it is. Tomorrow I'm move it to better spot and see if it makes a dfference. I may have to pull the head and de-carbonize it.Apart from the wash I also fitted my first aid kit shelf, which is just a bit of ply, a bit of triangular cross section wood and a velcro strap...varnish added.

[WX]

Filled the bolt recesses in the base of the ballast today and I should have the two pack primer on Wednesday. So by the weekend I should be moving the whole lot into the shed and along side the boat. Fingers x'ed.
Another job is sanding back the beltings and toerails fore re varnishing...maintenance already and I haven't even had a sail yet.

[WX]

Installed the new Humminbird depth sounder today, well the gauge anyway.



I haven't quite decided on the transponder location yet. My preferred position is slightly forward of the keel, which would be forward of the frame in front of it now.

[WX]

Two coats of Epinamel UC230 primer on the base and one side of the ballast. As I have 4 litres I'm going to give the hull below the waterline a couple of coats as well.



The new heavier duty stanchion base.

[johnno]

The new heavier duty stanchion base.

That's better

[GaryK]

Installed the new Humminbird depth sounder today, well the gauge anyway.
..I haven't quite decided on the transponder location yet. My preferred position is slightly forward of the keel, which would be forward of the frame in front of it now.

That's the same plan I have, with in-hull transducer. Hope it works through plywood, do you happen to know for fact that it does? ..or we are both going to suck it and see..

[WX]

That's the same plan I have, with in-hull transducer. Hope it works through plywood, do you happen to know for fact that it does? ..or we are both going to suck it and see..

According to the instructions that come with it it works though single skin FG no worries but they do say there maybe some loss in signal strength in hulls. So yes I guess we are both going to suck and see.

[WX]

That's better

It's definitely chunkier.

[GaryK]

According to the instructions that come with it it works though single skin FG no worries but they do say there maybe some loss in signal strength in hulls. So yes I guess we are both going to suck and see.

Some research into the matter (years ago) finally worked its way to the front of my brain.. What I probably will do is drill a ~25mm dia hole through the hull, then fill the hole with epoxy and stick the transducer on top of that. Hull at that point should look like a FG hull to the transducer & Bob's your uncle.

[WX]

What's the thickness of your hull Gary? Mines only 10mm.

[RFNK]

New stanchion bases look good Gary!

Rick

[johnno]

What's the thickness of your hull Gary? Mines only 10mm.

Gary, someone will know, or you already do, but on my Hood I used to put a tiny amount of a liquid (can't remember what, perhaps glycol) under the transducer. Maybe the new ones don't need it.

[Larks]

If you do want to go with a liquid bath/interface between the transducer and hull I don't think it really matters what it is, oil is probably more commonly used than anything else, or even a gel though I'd imagine glycol would work as well, anything that won't evaporate.

Most important with those in hull transducers though is that they won't, as a general rule, work through ply or timber, (I think mostly because of the air in the timber) . As Gary K suggested you need to cut a hole through the timber and then glass it up to mount the transducer to. This also gives you the opportunity to square the mount up a bit as well. The transducer instructions should tell you what thickness it can cope with but I'd be inclined to cut the hole with a hole saw and sand a recess around the hole either side about 200mm radius (or more) to lay the glass into without having a big bump on the outside.

The idea of the bath is to ensure that there are no air bubbles between the transducer and hull (as can happen if you epoxy it in) and it makes it easier to swap it out later (in that you don't have to bust it out - just unscrew the cap of the bath) and easy enough to check the fluid level and top up if necessary.

[GaryK]

What's the thickness of your hull Gary? Mines only 10mm.

28mm below the chine.
You could laminate another piece of ply on the inside to thicken it.

[WX]

Gary, someone will know, or you already do, but on my Hood I used to put a tiny amount of a liquid (can't remember what, perhaps glycol) under the transducer. Maybe the new ones don't need it.

This one came with a two part epoxy to bond it to the hull, the important part is to make sure there are no air bubbles in the glue when you bed it down. I've decided to go with the glue and I've installed it.

[WX]

If you do want to go with a liquid bath/interface between the transducer and hull I don't think it really matters what it is, oil is probably more commonly used than anything else, or even a gel though I'd imagine glycol would work as well, anything that won't evaporate.

Most important with those in hull transducers though is that they won't, as a general rule, work through ply or timber, (I think mostly because of the air in the timber) . As Gary K suggested you need to cut a hole through the timber and then glass it up to mount the transducer to. This also gives you the opportunity to square the mount up a bit as well. The transducer instructions should tell you what thickness it can cope with but I'd be inclined to cut the hole with a hole saw and sand a recess around the hole either side about 200mm radius (or more) to lay the glass into without having a big bump on the outside.

The idea of the bath is to ensure that there are no air bubbles between the transducer and hull (as can happen if you epoxy it in) and it makes it easier to swap it out later (in that you don't have to bust it out - just unscrew the cap of the bath) and easy enough to check the fluid level and top up if necessary.

BUGGER! I better go pull it out before the glue sets!

[WX]

I'll cut a hole a few mm bigger than the transducer and bond it in with the face flush with outside of the hull, then bond in a backing piece to reinforce it.

[Breakaway]

You can buy transducers that come in their own tank, and that tank is adjustable to account for the deadrise of the hull, so that the signal is shooting straight down and not out to the side.http://www.p2marine.com/marine-elect...79-smart.shtml

Before this packaged technology was available, we used to install 'ducers in hull using a section of pvc plastic pipe, the diameter of which is large enough to house the ducer.But we would use a bronze THROUGH_HULL TYPE Transducer, bronze with a threaded stem, not the transom type supplied as standard.Read and you will see why.

Step 1. Select location
Step2: Scribe the DR angle onto a section of the PVC and cut it.
Step 3: Bond the cut pipe to the inside of the hull: install the appropriate sized flange onto the end of the pipe, bond a ring of wood to the hull and screw and seal/caulk the flanged pipe down.
Step4: Fill pipe with mineral oil or antifreeze--anything that wont evaporate, freeze or bubble.
Step 5: secure the ducer to the appropriate sized cap for the PVC, drill hole through cap, pass wire ducer stem through hole, fasten with nut and seal.
Step 6: Screw/glue cap onto pipe.
Step 7: Enjoy reliable soundings and easy repairability.

You will lose some sensitivity, but that really only comes into play when looking for fish or thermoclines, at planing speeds and at the top-end of the unit's depth rating.

Kevin
ETA: Why the heck is my type auto-centering????? Sorry.

[RFNK]

I wouldn't bother putting one in at all.

Rick

[GaryK]

I wouldn't bother putting one in at all.

Rick

The Hummingbirds are cheap.
Radar is what I'm not bothering with.

[WX]

You can buy transducers that come in their own tank, and that tank is adjustable to account for the deadrise of the hull, so that the signal is shooting straight down and not out to the side.http://www.p2marine.com/marine-elect...79-smart.shtml

Before this packaged technology was available, we used to install 'ducers in hull using a section of pvc plastic pipe, the diameter of which is large enough to house the ducer.But we would use a bronze THROUGH_HULL TYPE Transducer, bronze with a threaded stem, not the transom type supplied as standard.Read and you will see why.

Step 1. Select location
Step2: Scribe the DR angle onto a section of the PVC and cut it.
Step 3: Bond the cut pipe to the inside of the hull: install the appropriate sized flange onto the end of the pipe, bond a ring of wood to the hull and screw and seal/caulk the flanged pipe down.
Step4: Fill pipe with mineral oil or antifreeze--anything that wont evaporate, freeze or bubble.
Step 5: secure the ducer to the appropriate sized cap for the PVC, drill hole through cap, pass wire ducer stem through hole, fasten with nut and seal.
Step 6: Screw/glue cap onto pipe.
Step 7: Enjoy reliable soundings and easy repairability.

You will lose some sensitivity, but that really only comes into play when looking for fish or thermoclines, at planing speeds and at the top-end of the unit's depth rating.

Kevin
ETA: Why the heck is my type auto-centering????? Sorry.

Okay a question. My transducer is designed to be glued to the inside of the hull, it's base is already angled and suits my deadrise perfectly. My hull is 10 marine ply, epoxy coated but not fibreglassed. Would the transducer give a reasonable return through 10mm plywood?

[Larks]

Okay a question. My transducer is designed to be glued to the inside of the hull, it's base is already angled and suits my deadrise perfectly. My hull is 10 marine ply, epoxy coated but not fibreglassed. Would the transducer give a reasonable return through 10mm plywood?

No.

[Breakaway]

Would the transducer give a reasonable return through 10mm plywood?

What Larks said, No. You need a glass insert--or get an actual through-hull transducer ( I mean you are cutting and sealing a hole either way)

Kevin

ETA: It might work, but the answer " no" from a world away is the safest and most reliable answer. As was said, the sonar signal wont pass through air. So if there is the tiniest void of air in the wood of the plywood at the mount locale, it may not work.

That said, you can perform a test in advance. We do this on glass boats to make sure there are no voids or trapped bubbles in the fiberglass under a shoot-through 'ducer. With the boat in the water, and the depthsounder hooked to power and the transducer plugged in ( can be jury rigged at this point, not permanently installed) place the transducer into a ziplock bag filled with water. Rubber band the bag closed. Place the bag and transducer where you would like to mount the ducer and look at your finder's screen. if you get a reading through the bag of water and the hull, you can affix the 'ducer in place right there without having to make a glass filled hole. If it doesnt read, there is air in the hull at that location and you can either try another spot a few inches over.

You can even take it a step further before you commit to the saw. If that bag trick works, use a non-permanent sealant to affix the ducer in place. They are pretty light and some 4200, life-calk, etc that sticks but isnt permanent will hold it. Just smoosh it into a blob of goop. Then go use the boat. If its a fail, revert to the excellent advise everyone has given you in this thread.

Kevin

[WX]

revert to the excellent advise everyone has given you in this thread.

Thanks Kevin...I'll cut a hole.

[RFNK]

Plastic fittings through a wooden hull are sort of frowned upon. Bronze is usually recommended. Bronze trnsducers are really expensive - that's why I never put one in the Folkboat. Now I wouldn't put one in as, apart from the interest side of knowing the depth, I don't think they're very useful things.

Rick

[WX]

I'm not going to rush into putting a hole in the hull just yet. Anyway the keel is now in the shed.
Here's a distance shot of my high tech gantry.


And a close up of the keel talking to the boat.

It was at this point that I felt in need of a cuppa. Did I mention it's raining?

[GaryK]

Looks like a lot of work (its good for you).
I think I'll leave that job to the boat yard, the last thing to do before launching, they have a nice big boat lifter which can plonk the hull on top of the keel for me.

[WX]

I've got it sitting on pipe rollers on a steel beam so it should be a lot easier to move now...but yeah, horrible job. I have a nice lump on my head that would delight a Phrenologist. I went to stand up while under the beam, luckily I didn't have far to fall to the ground in pain.

[RFNK]

If I ever commit murder it'll be in those few seconds after bashing my head like that. You have my sympathy.

Didn't murder anyone did you?

Rick

[WX]

If I ever commit murder it'll be in those few seconds after bashing my head like that. You have my sympathy.

Didn't murder anyone did you?

Rick

I swore with some passion then checked my head for blood. I didn't find any so I went back to wrestling lead.

[Duncan Gibbs]

He's too far up into the hills and too scared of Kerry!

[WX]

He's too far up into the hills and too scared of Kerry!

Hey Duncan who did you suggest for the sternrail mod?

[Duncan Gibbs]

Dig Bartlett: I've got his number somewhere, so I'll ring you as soon as I've found it. I'm pretty sure he does stainless.

[PeterSibley]

Actually Gary , Dig Bartlett may not be the best for that job. Hayes steel have a collection of cards on their counter advertising welders . I'm sure there is a specialist stainless bloke there.

[johnno]

Sorry I mentioned the glycol Gary... Actually, there's a couple of people who have had success with transducers in wooden hulls here. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ll)-Transducer

[Duncan Gibbs]

Actually Gary , Dig Bartlett may not be the best for that job. ...

Fugg-ed-aboud-it-then!

I see a trip for Gary to Buchanan St on the cards for Monday.

[RFNK]

Sorry I mentioned the glycol Gary... Actually, there's a couple of people who have had success with transducers in wooden hulls here. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ll)-Transducer

I spent quite a bit of time on this issue when restoring Pipsqueak. In thebend it came down to 3 options: use a bronze transducer as plastic is too vulnerable is a wooden hull, use a plastic transom mounted transducer, or get on with my life. Bronze was too expensive, transom mounted is too ugly, getting on with my life is what I did. I'll face the same dilemma again with the Twister though and, as GBR cruising is on the cards for that one, I think I will want a sounder. If so, I'll fork out for the bronze - IF they're still available!

Rick

[johnno]

I mentioned glycol because I remembered it was important with internal transponders to have the airless connection through to the water. In my 60s grp hull, it worked fine of course, and was there when I bought the boat..probably a standard fitting.

However, what was interesting in that thread I pulled up was that with wooden hulls obviously each hull is different, and the thickness of the wood and whether it is ply or not has made a difference. Some people have actually found they worked. As Gary has already forked out for the transponder, it seems at least worthwhile trying it out, even in a couple of places, before fibre glassing in a hole. He might just get lucky!

For my new boat I just bought a hand held depth sounder, as I don't want to have a battery on the boat. Same with my GPS, and VHF.

[WX]

I had been thinking about it today and I had decided to do a test before cutting any holes. My idea is to try the ziplok bag full of water or a puddle in the bilge and see if it works.
As JImj says:

I have had success shooting through 9mm ply on Sea Lark.

I really don't care about the maximum depth. If the specifications for the depth instrument state 0-200 feet and I only get 0-100 feet shooting through a ply hull, who cares.

It is the minimum depth I am interested. Like the last 2-4 feet.
Jim

Except for me it will be the last 2-4 metres.

[WX]

Thank you for pointing it out Johnno.
I was going to make a lead line once but I've settled on the digital equivalent.

[Larks]

There's no reason why glycol won't work John, it won't evaporate and the only real objective is make sure that there is no chance of any air bubbles under it.

If anyone has had success shooting through ply it would most likely be because the ply is either saturated with water or even epoxy resin.

Another option, if you're feeling experimental Gary, would be to sand off any paint either side of the hull and try and completely saturate it with a slow curing epoxy, ideally you'd vacuum bag it.

Like I said, all you are really needing to do is get rid of any potential for air, which you will find in the ply.


And make a lead line anyway, they're not just for testing the depth but for finding out what the bottom is when you are anchoring: i.e. mud, sand etc.

[RFNK]

Maximum depth is useful if you're using the sounder for navigation. Why don't you just plan to mount the thing on the transom Gary? You could put a safety step over it, just clear of the rudder. Then you don't have to worry about another through-hull or any of the materials issues.

Rick