laminate white oak frames with 5200?

[sdowney717]

anyone ever laminate white oak strips into frames using 5200?
How well does 5200 bond to white oak?

[RonW]

I have not used 3m5200 on white oak, BUT have used it to laminate plywood, and in framing as a subsitute for epoxy. In my opinion it is every bit the equal to epoxy. Some of the home depos sell it in white for only $8. a tube.Try a sample glue up to see for yourself. I highly recommend a urethane glue, called P.L. Premium construction adhesive, all home depos should have it, in the same size tube as the 3m5200 for $2.75, It is superior to epoxy or 3m5200 in my opinion, I used it on my last boat and that is all that I will use on mext boat ( no epoxy) at all.. It is thinner then 5200 and should make a excellent laminate glue.. It takes 12 of these tubes to make a gallon, so the pl ends up about $33. a gallon while 3m5200 at $12. a tube (most catalog pricing) ends up being $144, a gallon, pretty exspensive glue in my opinion. I also question the longevity of 3m5200 due to the rubber they add to it for flexibility, even if it isn't exsposed to sunlight. I called 3m and asked their technical support team, and they played dumb and said no one has ever asked that question before ( yea right) give me a break, so I think 3m5200 is very good, but appearantly has a life, that could be 20 or 30 years, I don't know. The P.L. says the life is as long as the materials it joins together, sounds to be a bit much, but at least they don't have a picture of a gorrila on the side of the tube. Try P.L.Premium

[Venchka]

If memory serves me, and maybe it doesn't , PL Premium comes in a quart tube that brings the cost down even more. I have read on one of the Yahoo groups that there is another product from the same company that works better around water and in boats. Anybody know anything about that? I think it was one of the concrete glue products from PL.

Edit to add: I have some PL Premium 6 months into a long term test-I ran a bead along the floor of the boat shed to keep rain water out. I'll let you know what I think after a year in the elements.

Wayne

[ 06-19-2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[RonW]

The pl in a quart tube is probably pl400, a different glue, and it is used for subfloor adhesive, too thick and requires heavy clamping pressure.The pl polyurethan premium construction adhesive, is only a few years old I believe. The 400 has been around for over 30 years.Here is their website.

http://www.stickwithpl.com/products/...nstruction.asp

[RonW]

http://www.stickwithpl.com/products/...y_sealants.asp

I think the roof and flashing sealant is what some have said they think is the same thing as 3m5200, but a whole lot cheaper.

This company has some excellent products. (that actually works as they say they do.)

[imported_Conrad]

It's the concrete and masonry adhesive that is closest to 5200- long cure times (week) and very strong.

[Venchka]

PL Premium, quart tube, no doubt about it. Home Depot or Lowe's, not sure which. Had the little tube and the big tube in my hands. The quart tube was cheaper than 3 small tubes, but I bought the small tubes because I didn't want an open tube going bad on me.

As for sun exposure, I ran two beads across south facing doorways sealed with sheets of plywood. The PL forms a watertight seal between the plywood and concrete slab. Full sun and rain. Holding up very nicely so far.

Wayne

[ 06-19-2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by sdowney717:
anyone ever laminate white oak strips into frames using 5200? How well does 5200 bond to white oak?

5200 bonds well to anything

However…while 5200 is virtually as strong as epoxy, it has much more creep: if you're trying to laminate something into a curve and have it stay there, 5200 is likely to give you some grief in that respect.

Also, 5200 cures via reaction with good ol' H20. It develops some (most?) strength fairly quickly but the complete reaction may take months to complete.

What's wrong with epoxy as a laminating adhesive? Any adhesion problems with white oak are, IMHO, probably due to glue starvation. White oak is essentially a straw. Seal the laminates with unthickened epoxy on both sides and let it go off.

While its still green (e.g., no longer sticky, but not yet cured) assemble the lamination with more epoxy and you'll likely have no problems.

Resist the urge to honk down on it with the clamps, too: overclamping causes starvation too. You only need enough clamp pressure to bring the joint together. Epoxy prefers a thicker glue line (within reason) to a thing one.

[sdowney717]

Sounds like 5200 will bond to the oak and I have read where epoxy and white oak bonds sometimes fail when the oak gets wet.
When you think about the stress on a frame, something like a polyurethane or a polysulphide ought to give it some flex to absorb stresses so instead of breaking a frame apart it might just give and then reassume the original shape.
Regarding the creep, when planks are screwed into frames and the screws cut across the laminations, I would assume that the screws would lock the laminations togehter and prevent any creeping effect.
I also like PL premium, but am not convinced the strength is sufficient. I have broken apart joints with PL Premium and noticed air bubbles form in hardened glue.
Home Depot sells a poyurethane window and door sealant which I am doing an underwater test on. It is softer than 5200 and under $4.00 per tube. The tube says not for underwater use, but so far no trouble with it.
There are a lot of ways to fix a boat, some better than others. My goals are always to try and produce a fix that is longlasting and stronger than original construction.
Personally I have found Dow 331 epoxy with versamid hardener (an epoxy that is thick like honey) to be a great way of sealing exterior wood prior to painting. I simply brush it on, sand it flat with 40 grit random orbit and paint.
Works great on mahogany and also looks great left bright.

[Mrleft8]

I wouldn't do it. 5200 never ever hardens. You won't hold your shape. If it were me, I'd use resourcinol, or epoxy... Resourcinol would be best. All this mystery about White oak not bonding well is (in my humble opinion) a bunch of hooey. I've been working with the stuff for well over 20 years, and in all that time I have never ever had any trouble gluing White oak using ANY kind of glue.

[High C]

Regarding the PL Construction Adhesive, beware that it foams and swells as it dries, much like the expanding foam that is used to insulate voids and break stuff.

If you don't wipe it off several times while it's curing,it will leave a well cured mess to deal with later. Uggh.

When you think you've got it all, look again, it's still oozing and growing!

Epoxy for me.

[RonW]

In the last 2 posts, one is in favor of rescourinol and the other is in favor of epoxy.Other then that I have to dissagree with them about 3m5200 and P.L. 5200 definetly hardens, in fact it is very sandable with a palm sander or disc sander, I was very impressed with how well it did sand. And as far as P.L. being a foaming glue, like gorilla glue which does foam into a useless foam, not true. P.L. will exspand slightly, but not into a foam.If you use too much P.L. it will swell out a small bead that is easily srcaped off with a sharp putty knife, and it is also sandable. Bottom line is you need to try a glue up with each one and make you choice as to which ones you want to or not to work with.

[Donn]

PL definately doesn't swell and ooze as much as GG. 5200 definately hardens, although it does take it's time.

When we laminated some sisters into Loon, with 3/16" white oak strips, the old-timer boatbuilder slathered the individual pieces with green Cuprinol, the night before. Then we used epoxy to glue them in place, and drilled and bolted them to the planks before they set up. They're solid as a rock.

[ 06-25-2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[fair&fair]

for a faster cure...5200 fast cure. I've been using this almost exclusively now

[jlapratt]

June 2004 Woodenboat, page 78. Article titled "Reframing from the Outside." New white oak frames laminated with 5200 fastcure. I 'spose you could contact Tom Potter at New England Shipyard for his results.

Jeff

[High C]

Hmmm, the one time I used the PL my first thought was that it was Gorilla Glue in a caulk tube. Thicker, though. It certainly foamed and expanded into a mess with little holes in it that had to be removed. It wasn't hard to remove like 5200, God help us , but it was more of a pain than just wiping up a bit of excess epoxy.

Maybe the hot swampy conditions here were a factor, I don't know, but it sure struck me as being quite similar to GG.

[ 06-25-2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: High C ]

[Venchka]

HighC,

I've run two tubes of the stuff along the slab and the walls of the boat shed. 1/2" diameter beads several feet long. No foam. The stuff is hard. Holding up well in all the elements.

Wayne
Stuck in the Swamp!

[High C]

Originally posted by Venchka:
HighC,

I've run two tubes of the stuff along the slab and the walls of the boat shed. 1/2" diameter beads several feet long. No foam. The stuff is hard. Holding up well in all the elements.

Wayne
Stuck in the Swamp!

Hmmm, well maybe I have mixed up which PL product it was. There are several different ones that come in PL caulk tubes, maybe it wasn't the construction adhesive. It sure aggrevated me at the time!

Swamp fumes have been known to cause confusement!