Double paddle canoe/kayak designs

[Wayne Jeffers]

I want to build a couple of lightweight double-paddle canoes or kayaks for folks in late middle age who are 200 – 220 pounds. Many such designs stipulate a maximum load of 180 pounds or less.

Use will mostly be on a river (deep water, minimal current, big boats only on very rare occasions) or on smallish nearby lakes with HP limits of 6 or 10. I don’t expect self-rescuing, but I would want flotation, probably by decking/enclosing the ends. By lightweight, I'm thinking no more than 50 pounds.

Sheet ply or strip-built are the methods that would best suit me. I don’t want to spend forever building them.

A couple of designs that would seem to fit are:

Cheap Canoe

Jim Michalak’s Toto

Can anybody offer thoughts on these or on other designs?

Wayne

[garland reese]

The B and B yacht designs Birder and Birder II are nice, and easy to build. These are laid back designs with ample decking. With bulkheads fore and aft, you can build in a large amount of floatation.
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bird.htm

They're a bit like the CLC Mill Creek boats, which are very nice for their type.
http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/k...LCREEK-13.html

Either of these boats might suit your fancy.

[Brian Palmer]

How about Tom Hill's Atwood Traveler, 15 feet, 39 lbs:

http://www.thomasjhillboatdesigns.co..._traveler.html

Once you have the form set up, the second one would go quickly since you could use the planks from the first as patterns for the second.

Brian

[Gerard]

I built a pair of Mill Creek kayaks from Chesapeake Light Craft about 10 years ago. Good little things for exactly your purposes, the 13 footer can handle a maximum payload of 300 lbs. They suggest a paddler wieght of 12-250lbs. Take a look:

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/stitcha...ks/millcreeks/

I've really enjoyed mine with the missus. You do grow out fo them though, at least we did. Like something a lot sportier now.

[Tar Devil]

Several here have built Cheap Canoe. I love mine.

[garland reese]

I would agree with Gerard on outgrowing the boats after a spell. Good excuse to build more though!

Actually the Diva kayak from B and B looks good, and the construction of these boats is pretty simple, but the overall result is quite nice. I'm considering one of these, along with the Fire Star strip built kayak from Laughing Loon Kayaks.

Diva is 23 1/2 inches abeam, so should be stable and carry a good payload for toolin' around.....
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/diva.htm

[Mike Field]

.
You might like to check out the Blandford designs too, Wayne. Grizz had a recent thead here that's relevant.

There's also a web-page showing construction of one of these using Ceconite 101 here.

Plans are available through Clark Craft in New York.
.

[JimConlin]

Mac McCarthy's Wee Lassie II is intended for substantial people.

Google will turn up many pix.

[JimD]

I've always liked the Mill Creek designs too.

[JEM]

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/proddet...prod=NorthWind

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/SouthWind.php

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/FreedomCompare.php

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/Laker.php

[keyhavenpotterer]

the CLC Wood Ducks are nice and would seem ideal

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/kayaks/woodducks/

here is a blog of building the Wood Duck 12
http://strathkanchris.wordpress.com/...lt/candyfloss/

for all you Oughtred fans out there, have a look at the pages for Scotch Mist, the build of a MacGregor, at Bumble a Humble Bee and also Stangarra, Iain's new 10' canoe.

Brian

[bob easton]

Harry Bryan's 12 foot Fiddlehead will carry the payload. It has good flotation via two watertight compartments. It is also decked which adds to finished weight.

See: http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/plans.html

[Wayne Jeffers]

Thanks, everyone! Looking at all these will keep me busy for a while.

Wayne

[garland reese]

I can vouch for the Wee Lassie II. I built one several years ago, and it will carry a good load. It is an open canoe though, keep in mind. I legnthened the fore and aft decks very slightly and built in some floatation chambers in each end. It is a good boat, but I think a more decked design would be better in rough water. A narrower and longer hull would provide a better speed per effort potential.

A lot of the kayaks in the 23 or 24 inch beam realm, can offer good primary and secondary stability, along with good performance. There are a fair number of design in this spectrum in both cedar strip and plywood builds.

I found myself paddling one of those rotomolded kayaks yesterday, upsteam, chasing a few great blue herons that were not willing to hold still for a decent photo....... I was sure wishing for a lighter (and perhaps a little more speed potential) boat! Oh, and that bright yellow color did not help. For contrast, I paddled a fellow's CLC 17 a few years ago, and it seemed to glide along with much less effort than the big yellow monster yesterday. I'm pondering a kayak build..... or two

[JimConlin]

I'm with Garland. The Wee Lassie II is not for open water and it's not as fast as an 18' kayak. The plusses are that it's a one-hand (under 30 lbs.) open boat. If you want to bring along a fishing rod, cooler, camera or small dog and get to them, you can. And, it's pretty.

[garland reese]

Here is yet another idea......
This is a new design from Nick Schade. This boat is about as simple a form as there is for strip building. The beam is 26 inches, so it is just slightly less beam than the Wee Lassie II. It is about 15.5 feet long. Not a bad design. It has not yet been built, so no hard data on performance.

http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/S

I tend to go for strip built boats like this, only because I cannot get marine plywood locally. Stip are easy to mill. I don't normally mess with beading and cove.... it is very easy to bevel the edges of strips to fit, as needed.

[JEM]

I posted once in this thread already but here's one more that just came out that might be worth a look:

http://www.jemwatercraft.com/Okwata.php

[Thorne]

Is it OK to put folks in a kayak if they can't do the roll? Seems like an open canoe with flotation in the ends might be a better choice for beginners...

[Canoez]

At a bare minimum, on flat water, a kakak paddler should be able to do a "wet exit" when inverted, self-rescue with a paddle and float and be able to get the water out of the boat. YMMV and different water conditions require different skills

[Chris Ostlind]

Beginning paddlers run right into the two of the biggest psychological fears of the human experience... that being, 1. The business of being stuck in a coffin and 2. Drowning. We are essentially land animals and the watery environment is not a place where we naturally call home (fish-like kids who grow-up at the seashore in warmer climates excluded)

The result is that the process of climbing into a kayak with an enclosed deck over their legs has all the psycho earmarks of being slid into a casket. Push that casket off the shore and you then have the whole dark and ugly realtionship of fear with a drowning death, piled on top.

No, I'm not a practicing Psychiatrist, but the obvious metaphors are definitely in place for the typical guy, or gal, when they step on out there to buy, or build, their first boat of this type.

Canoes immediately get around most of this by being really easy to get away from the hull should you be tossed on your side, for whatever reason. The drowning thing is present, but that can be eased with a good process of familiarization with the pfd in calmer water.

My take... unless the persons involved are really safe in the water already and then have a solid understanding of how a PFD works in their favor, the kayak is a big step for them. If they are non-swimmers, and I can attest to this issue directly from an ex-wife who did not swim and was scared to death of drowning, you will have some very big hurdles to overcome, potentially with a typical kayak as the first vessel.

A simple, wider than typical, open canoe with really huge stability will allow this person to be on the water, paddling, enjoying the day and establishing a nice sense of themselves as a beginning water person. Once they get that under their belt, they can move comfortably to a wide hulled kayak and then, eventually, to a more slender, more responsive boat.

Folks who are fully comfortable in the water already can skip steps one and two and get right into kayak and have a blast.

Now, this may just be my sense of prudence in the matter, but it never hurts to go slowly if you sense that someone is reluctant about any of the process.

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I want to build a couple of lightweight double-paddle canoes or kayaks for folks in late middle age who are 200 – 220 pounds. Many such designs stipulate a maximum load of 180 pounds or less.

Use will mostly be on a river (deep water, minimal current, big boats only on very rare occasions) or on smallish nearby lakes with HP limits of 6 or 10. I don’t expect self-rescuing, but I would want flotation, probably by decking/enclosing the ends. By lightweight, I'm thinking no more than 50 pounds.

Sheet ply or strip-built are the methods that would best suit me. I don’t want to spend forever building them.

A couple of designs that would seem to fit are:

Cheap Canoe

Jim Michalak’s Toto

Can anybody offer thoughts on these or on other designs?

Wayne

You want it all. Lightweight boat but for big paddlers. Can be canoe or kayak,eh. The spirits of the Mighty Cuyahoga don't have any easy answers.
The simplest answer is a three panel pirogue like the Cheap Canoe, the Nice Canoe or the Zydeco. Of all the cajun pirogues the Zydeco approaches the look of a canoe the best. It may be heavier than 50 lb, tho'.
To keep the weight down you'll have to use expensive okoume and keep the amount of epoxy to the minimum. The ability to put floatation into a canoe is limited unless you go to float bags or greatly compromise your interior space. Boats like Toto are non-traditional and there are not enough of them around to compare them to traditional shapes.
I am not a big fan of inventive paddleboat designs. The problem with any paddle boat is it is propelled by human muscle and a hull that is a small percentage less effective can put the hurt on you if you try to go any significant distance. Lastly, canoes stick up out of the water so they catch much more wind than a comparable kayak.
One of the reasons for the popularity of plastic kayaks is the ease of propulsion they offer to the paddler. The down side is they lock the paddler in to a single posture and it may take some time to make it moderately comfortable. Numb legs are an ever present factor as the paddler gets older. Floatation in a wooden kayak is a snap. You just glue in two buklheads.
I paddle a lightweight Cheap Canoe. I like it but it will never be a great boat. It's short and with a waterline of only about 12 feet it won't give you the glide of a longer boat. It is also rather tippy unless you sit very close to the bottom. Nonetheless it is a good, simple S&G design done by a naval architect and it has been built in uncounted thousands all over the world.

[garland reese]

Hey Wayne,

How is the hunt going? I thought of one other place that has some interesting designs.... Stillwater boats. They are relatively simple tortured ply boats. He has a pure canoe, a nice double that has some ample decking, but a big open cockpit, and he offers a single canoe and a decked version, with a nice big cockpit as well.

I've paddled a couple of kayak designs, but am not in any way, a skilled paddler. All things considered, in general, I feel more stable and secure in a kayak than in my Wee Lassie II. It has a pretty round shape, and can be rolled onto it's bilges easily. Kayaks are the same way, but somehow, I do not feel nearly as tippy in them, and the one I've been lately paddling is around 22 or 23 inches at the max beam. It's very well mannnered, though I've no idea how hard it would be to self-rescue. The cockpit is roomy enough that a wet exit would be easy, and fore and aft there are bulkheads, but re-entry in deep water is not a skill I've trained in.
My paddling is limited to flat water and narrow, very slow streams. I want to improve my skill in paddling next season, working on self resue, braces and rolls, hopefully. A kayak is a very capable craft, in skilled hands. In skilled hands.

For my money, I'd go with the little Mill creek boats. They are stable platforms, with decked over protection, floatation, and big comfortable seating/cockpit areas.

It is no easy task to self rescue a swamped canoe in deep water either.... with two paddlers, I think it more manageable, but I don't really enjoy paddling double.

If you can hook up with a local canoe and kayak club, you can probably try out some different boats before you make a decision, so you might have a better idea of what sort of hull shape suits your need and your skills best.

Anyway..... good luck, and have a look at the Stillwater canoes

[George Roberts]

"I want to build a couple of lightweight double-paddle canoes or kayaks for folks in late middle age who are 200 – 220 pounds."

It is easy enough to build kayaks that weigh under 30 pounds suitable for 250 pound novice paddlers.

[BrianY]

in addition to all the others listed, there's also the Chesepeak Marine Design "Scout" http://www.cmdboats.com/scout.htm?ca...a82afbb81a962f

Specifications:
Length: 12'-0"
Beam: 2'-8"
Draft: 0'-3"
Weight: 50 lbs

"Scout is a very user friendly kayak. She is stable for leisure exploring, fishing, photographing or jus messing about. Her large cockpit provides ample room for stretching out, gear or another crew member (total capacity is 300 lbs). Her larger sister the Explorer is 15 feet long and has capacity for 400 lbs. Scout is stitch and glue construction. Scout is now available as a hull kit. The hull kit includes frames, bulkheads, bottom and side panels with precision-cut stepped scarfs, and deck panels."

This boat appears to be similar to the Mill Creek boats - large open cockpit, wider than ususal for stability, high capacity for the length, etc.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

in addition to all the others listed, there's also the Chesepeak Marine Design "Scout" http://www.cmdboats.com/scout.htm?ca...a82afbb81a962f

Specifications:
Length: 12'-0"
Beam: 2'-8"
Draft: 0'-3"
Weight: 50 lbs

"Scout is a very user friendly kayak. She is stable for leisure exploring, fishing, photographing or jus messing about. Her large cockpit provides ample room for stretching out, gear or another crew member (total capacity is 300 lbs). Her larger sister the Explorer is 15 feet long and has capacity for 400 lbs. Scout is stitch and glue construction. Scout is now available as a hull kit. The hull kit includes frames, bulkheads, bottom and side panels with precision-cut stepped scarfs, and deck panels."

This boat appears to be similar to the Mill Creek boats - large open cockpit, wider than ususal for stability, high capacity for the length, etc.

A 12 foot canoe that weighs 50 lbs. is heavy in the extreme. And having it decked over seems more like a visual feature than a practical addition. I doubt anyone would take this hull into seas that would be breaking over the gunnals. The claim that it will support 300 lb. means that it can support that weight and maintain the minimum amount of freeboard in ideal conditions. It is not a claim that the boat can be operated with that load consistantly in a wide variety of conditions. Also, it is a classic case of the "shorter is better" philosophy. Only, experienced paddlers don't buy that. Short boat will give you shorter glide meaning more work to get from A to B, and shorter boats suffer from more yawing with each stroke which makes the A to B distance longer than necessary.
Remember, paddle boats are powered by human muscle. If the paddler only diddles in protected water it doesn't matter much what kind of hull is involved. If the paddler wants to expand his experience and take on more challenging venues the choice of hulls becomes more important.
Scout looks like a a 1950's retread. The do-it-yourself books used to feature boats like that and you can probably get those old plans for free on the web. Like this.
http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RowBoats/Plyak

[tdem]

I think to keep things light make a canoe like the cheap canoe, and for flotation put in air bags or styrofoam blocks like the optimist dinghies do.

I made a collection of all the free boat plans I could find and put them online here. The more stars the better/more detailed the plans. There is about 40 canoes and kayaks there. They won't all meet your criteria of course.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I think to keep things light make a canoe like the cheap canoe, and for flotation put in air bags or styrofoam blocks like the optimist dinghies do.

I made a collection of all the free boat plans I could find and put them online here. The more stars the better/more detailed the plans. There is about 40 canoes and kayaks there. They won't all meet your criteria of course.

Anything that you got from peopleconnectionblog is kaput. It shut down on October 31.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Is it OK to put folks in a kayak if they can't do the roll? Seems like an open canoe with flotation in the ends might be a better choice for beginners...

Rotomolded kayaks are the majority of paddleboats being sold today. Cheap and every bit as user friendly as a canoe. As long as you aren't desireous of packing a lot of stuff a kayak has a lot going for it. They're stabile, don't catch a lot of wind and waves don't push you around as much. Hardly anyone who paddles one knows how to roll. A normal wet re-entry will get it done.
If anyone is desireous of stabilty get a fishing kayak. There is a picture on the web of a guy clutching a freshly caught 100 lb. tuna. He is sitting in his fishing boat. A plastic fishing kayak. Try that in a canoe.

[David G]

Well... nobody has commented on the Toto yet. I don't own one, and have never been aboard one. I've been around them, though. Several folks in my boating group own or have owned a Toto. The one fellow I talked to about the building process said it was very easy (and he's one of those klutzy intellectural types - no woodworking background). Everyone seems quite happy with the boat itself, and I've seen them used in a variety of conditions - some even rougher than I thought would be safe. Everyone seemed to be having lotsa fun. In terms of looks, they're unusual, but attractive, esp. with the right paint job.

FWIW, That's all I know.


"Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught" -- Winston Churchill

[Christine DeMerchant]

I'm planning to build a Toto. I chose it because I like the look. Its simple to build, I've gotten the plans and there is nothing tricky.
I like the open cockpit with lots of flotation possible.
I'm hoping to play with it and add this and that, such as a small sailing rig, or maybe a paddle propulsion.
I've always found real Kayaks a bit restrictive. Efficient but eventually uncomfortable. Plus I really don't like tipping in a kayak. I can do it and it is still scary.
The plans are about 25 dollars I think.
Good luck
Christine

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Well... nobody has commented on the Toto yet. I don't own one, and have never been aboard one. I've been around them, though. Several folks in my boating group own or have owned a Toto. The one fellow I talked to about the building process said it was very easy (and he's one of those klutzy intellectural types - no woodworking background). Everyone seems quite happy with the boat itself, and I've seen them used in a variety of conditions - some even rougher than I thought would be safe. Everyone seemed to be having lotsa fun. In terms of looks, they're unusual, but attractive, esp. with the right paint job.

FWIW, That's all I know.


"Personally, I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught" -- Winston Churchill

The problem with Toto is it is entirely different than most other paddleboats. I wonder what Michalak was trying to get at when he designed it? Why is the stem cut back at such a severe angle? Why is the stern squared off and a box insalled right next to it so a motor cannot be clamped on?
The fact that some builders like it isn't much testamony unless the builders are experienced paddlers.
Any well designed paddleboat is a collection of compromises and it takes some understanding of the nuances to get a good design. For most folks , who don't paddle regularly, the biggie is can it be driven thru' the water easily? Next does it weathercock in a breeze? If you want to cartop it or portage it, is it light enough to get over your head?

[Songololo]

What about the Eureka by Michael Storer?

She comes in both a 13' and a 15'6'' version.

A few pics:

[Wayne Jeffers]

Rotomolded kayaks are the majority of paddleboats being sold today. Cheap and every bit as user friendly as a canoe. As long as you aren't desireous of packing a lot of stuff a kayak has a lot going for it. They're stabile, don't catch a lot of wind and waves don't push you around as much. Hardly anyone who paddles one knows how to roll. A normal wet re-entry will get it done.
. . .

Michelle decided she wanted a double-paddle kayak/canoe after using some friends’ Old Town Otters last year.

It was easy for me to recognize the limitations of the Otter. At only 9’ 6” LOA and with a fair amount of rocker, it is best suited for the mountain rivers where our friends’ kayaks were originally used. Not so well suited for essentially calm waters and leisurely paddling.

Yeah, I want it all. I had in mind something in the neighborhood of 12 or 13 feet LOA, with a maximum beam of about 28 to 30 inches. I’d like to be able to throw a pair of them in the 8’ bed of my pickup truck to drive a couple of miles to the nearest place where I can easily put in.

I have essentially no experience with kayaks. The big attraction of kayaks for me is the relative lack of windage compared to a canoe. I have a 15’ Grumman canoe and paddling solo, a little wind really wants to move it about.

We have no desire to learn to do a kayak roll; however, we are both very good swimmers within the limits of our age. We will also be within a reasonable distance to shore. The river near our house is no more than 50’ wide. All of the nearby lakes are the result of damming hollows and they are mostly long and narrow.

We would not expect to pack more than lunch and a bottle or two of water.

There are enough underwater obstructions that I would worry about piercing a skin-on-frame kayak/canoe. Perhaps my concern is unwarranted, but . . .

Another design I’m looking at is the 13’ English Touring Canoe of 1883 in John Gardner’s More Building Classic Small Craft. I’ve admired that design for many years and I think it would be easily adaptable to strip-plank construction. At 30” beam, it should work with a double paddle. I have no idea what the finished weight might be.

I worried about Toto being such an unconventional design, though the concept is intriguing.

I appreciate all the input.

Wayne

[crabskiff]

I'll throw in a vote for the CLC Mill Creek too. More of a decked canoe than a kayak that is extremely stable, go together quickly and they look good. You don't get that claustophobic feel of a true kayak in the Mill Creek. (read: more comfortable for those "late middle age frames")

[garland reese]

Hey Wayne,

How is the search coming along? I hope you are making some progress. I've been looking at some build possibilities myself for the Winter months. Lately, I've been out rowing with my wife in double rowing shells at the boathouse and lately, I've been paddling some club kayaks. Our water around here is mostly pretty small water, with predictable conditions. Ultimately, I want to learn to sail, and build a small daysailer with weekend camp cruising capacity, but I also like to get out and do some paddle sport. Rowing and paddling are things that I truly enjoy, as does my wife. She'd never really been in a kayak, but she owns her own recreational rowing shell (a Maas 24 lightweight single), and is fit and active and likes outdoor acitvities, so I managed to coax her into a touring kayak a couple weeks ago. We had a great afternoon paddling some quiet water on a very nice fall day! These outings in these rotomolded "sea kayaks" have got me wanting for my own kayak, so I'm beginning to think about building one or two......

All things considered, I enjoy paddling the rotomolded 15 foot by 23" Sealoution II XL kayak more than my Wee Lassie II, as I feel more stable and protected in the kayak..... oddly enough. Bad thing is, it's HEAVY and well.... plastic and Uh, Ugly. Anyhow, I've been looking, re-reading my books on kayak construction, and pondering a few different design possiblilities. In my searching, I came across the web pages of of friend, who I met a number of years ago, after building my Wee Lassie. He is a kayaker, and a strip builder of a number of kayaks, both from plans, and of late, from designs of his own. He has developed a very nice design software for kayaks, and an incredibly informative website that is full of information on building, paddling, and designing kayaks. Check it out at Blue Heron Kayaks. Ross is one very nice Man, and has developed a very fine piece of software for desigining Kayaks. It is a labour of love for him, I believe, as it is available for download and all he asks is for a donation of your own choosing....... did I mention that Ross is and incredible individual?

Anyway, I say all that to make a point for the simplicity and useability of the kayak as a recreational watercraft..... in all it's differing forms. I've been tweaking around with designs of my own, and I think, with a bit of advice from those "in the know", that a person could design himself a kayak of proportions that would suit his capacity, size, skill, environment, and use parameters; then go about building it to the level of form, function, or fine art of his choosing, according to his own desire, ambition and skill, and spend the following years enjoying the fruits of his effort, within the confines of his own skills and the design capacities of his craft......

Check it out Wayne...... Blue Heron Kayaks. You could design a nice little boat for your own purpose, print out the forms, set up shop, and be paddlin' by Springtime!!! I've been tinkering around with a 13.5 foot kayak...... beamy and roomy for fishing. The cockpit would need to be made larger perhaps, but that is very easy to modify to your tastes.

[JimConlin]

I came across this drawing of Wee Lassie II. I find it attractive.

[Canoez]

Here's a picture of a finished Wee Lassie II (front) and two Wee Lassies. Nice little boats.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Interesting stuff.

Thanks for the tip on the Blue Heron web site, Garland. I’ll play around with the software when I have time. I have an idea what I would like. What I don’t know is whether it will work. Trying a few things with the software will be interesting. If the software proves useful, I’ll send a generous supporting contribution.

I like the idea of strip construction. If I were to build with plywood, I would prefer to use chines for nailing/gluing. I don’t like the idea of stitch and glue, though I’ve never tried it. It is curious that so many web pages don’t tell me what method is used for construction. I dug up the Mill Creek article from 1997 and discovered that it is built stitch and glue.

The Wee Lassie II is very similar to the English Touring Canoe that I like. Its rated capacity of 280 pounds is probably about right. I also like the Excursion kayak design from the Newfound site.

Wayne

[David G]

I would also consider the Storer Eureka. I haven't seen one in the flesh, but have been following the posts at Storer's forum. Everyone seems quite happy - from beginners to accomplished paddlers. Apparently it can be used canoe-fashion with a paddle or two... or kayak-like with a double paddle. Here's a video of a recent launch:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...=10486&page=33


"Self development is a higher duty than self sacrifice" -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Any problems with recomending some American designs?
http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=CH12
And this,
http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=HC12
And these were done by a certified naval architect.

[Canoez]

A couple of other small canoe designs to consider would be Rob Macks' Solo Portage and Wee Two designs. They'd be a bit more stable than the Wee Lassie and Wee Lassie II designs as they are a shade wider. (~2" more beam)

Linky.