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Thread: Pilgrim from John Welsford

  1. #1
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    Default Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Heres something to keep people from nodding off, JW is starting a new project. I heard that he's been pretty ill on and off for several years so has not done much sailing and has not had a boat. My pal ( who knows JW pretty well) says that he is a lot fitter and is very keen to get out on the water again so is designing and building a boat for a specific trip, plus hopes to be joining in with the guys cruising in open boats out of Auckland New Zealand.
    Reading the first of the " Pilgrim Diaries " suggests that he is going to treat us to a regular update on the thinking and development of the plans, then step by step through the building process and then working the boat up and doing the trip.
    I've fished commercially in that area, and while its a lovely coast if you are in a decent sized boat or if the weathers fine, it can get pretty rough in an onshore breeze and the safe havens are a long way apart in a small boat. JW knows this, has a lot of small boat voyaging experience and its going to be very interesting to follow his thinking and see what he comes up with .

    I miss the Sundowner diaries, I still go back and read them through and wonder where Charlie Whipple and his little cutter would be now if all had gone to plan, and am really looking forward to what looks like being another fascinating series of articles from my favourite ( yes I'm biased) living designer.

    Here's the link to diary number one.
    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...s/08-10-09.htm

    There is also an introductory note on the homepage of his website at www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz


    Cedric Rhyn

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    .
    Thanks for that, Cedric. Good news indeed. (And I hadn't known that John hadn't been up to scratch physically lately.)

    That sounds like a high-ideal concept, and I have a very good idea that John, if anyone, can pull it off.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    This will be fun to watch. A small open boat, eh? Wonder if he'll let me put a cabin on it?

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Cedric,

    Looking forward to the development of Pilgrim. I'm very curious of how it will differ from Pathfinder. I had no idea that John was fighting any illness although he does mention his back injury in the Pilgrim diary part 1 which I've read twice. I sincerely hope he is well enough now to build and sail this new concept boat. His designs are excellent and the Fafnir is especially interesting to me. I'd like to see some Fafnir sailing pictures. I applaud John's desire to stay with a smallish tow vehicle thought I was doing good to pull my Caledonia Yawl with my 2.7 liter Tacoma truck.

    Please tell me what happened with Charlie and his Resolution. What's the deal with that?

    Thanks in advance,
    kenjamin

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    I hate to admit I knew nothing of Mr. Welsford before, but have now visited his design pages and fallen in love with a few of his boats! His miniature whaleboat is truly unique. I want to build one!

    Dave

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Cant get away with anything can I. No I've not been very well, its been several stessful and difficult years but it seems to be all over. Now that I can count on being fit and well I can get on with building and am looking forward to getting out sailing again.

    The new boat, to give you an idea as to the difference in philosophy between Pathfinder and Pilgrim, If Pathfinder can be likened to a classic sports car, then Pilgrim is a serious long range off road four wheel drive vehicle.
    There are also going to be some experiments in structure and building technique, hullform and rig. I like to gently push the edges of the envelope when doing a boat for myself, the experiments are so I can then incorporate the results in other designs to my customers advantage. I've some ideas as to how to improve the performance of a gaff rig by using a tracked alloy mast and a heavy batten car to carry the gaff, and by using both modern sailcloth and current sail shape theory. It fits in with the big piece of mast section I have in the rack in my shop, and I've some carbon fibre tube for the gaff to reduce the weight aloft.

    I've done the initial drawings, and hope to have them up on the Pilgrim Diaries site this weekend.

    There is a query about a cabin, and yes thats a strong possibility.

    Charlie and Resolution? For those who dont know, Charlie made a navigational error and sailed Resolution into a rockfeild on the East Coast of New Zealands Great Barrier Island about 4am one very dark and stormy night, the boat was a total loss, he got off and was picked up unharmed by a rescue helicopter an hour or two later ( he's a strong advocate of 406 personal locator beacons) and is now at home in Japan working toward picking up his Westsail32 from Mexico and taking her back to Yokohama.

    JohnW



    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Cedric,

    Looking forward to the development of Pilgrim. I'm very curious of how it will differ from Pathfinder. I had no idea that John was fighting any illness although he does mention his back injury in the Pilgrim diary part 1 which I've read twice. I sincerely hope he is well enough now to build and sail this new concept boat. His designs are excellent and the Fafnir is especially interesting to me. I'd like to see some Fafnir sailing pictures. I applaud John's desire to stay with a smallish tow vehicle thought I was doing good to pull my Caledonia Yawl with my 2.7 liter Tacoma truck.

    Please tell me what happened with Charlie and his Resolution. What's the deal with that?

    Thanks in advance,
    kenjamin
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Very sorry to hear about Resolution hitting the rocks. I followed the build very closely and really liked the way the boat looked at launch.

    Glad to hear your feeling better, Mr. Welsford. Looking forward to the Pilgrim design evolution. Does it have anything to do with the 17' cutter design that you had spoke of about six months ago or was that boat for a client? I'm very interested in water ballast and your plans for it. With fuel prices of the future, it makes more and more sense. I have a huge live well / motor well on my CY that works well enough for me. It's dry storage for the motor or I can remove the waterproof hatch and flood it to insert the motor (a 4HP four-stroke) for use.


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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Its been a real loss, that boat had a lot of all of us in it and there is still a sense of disbelief about the whole thing. But I was a part of the sailing trials, did a couple of hundred miles in a wide range of weather conditions and was extremely pleased with the way she performed. That experience means that I can assure prospective builders that she does the job and of course we have an extensive photographic record of the build which is a big help as well.

    Pilgrim is not related to the 17ft cutter, thats on hold until I get a customers job out of the way, and then I'm all booked for ages while I get several part finished jobs completed and gone, the 17 ft cutter included.

    Meantime, a couple of hours here and there for myself will see Pilgrim progress, I've just been to the copy shop and had the concept drawing scanned, will email it to my webmaster and it should be posted in a day or so.

    JohnW


    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Very sorry to hear about Resolution hitting the rocks. I followed the build very closely and really liked the way the boat looked at launch.

    Glad to hear your feeling better, Mr. Welsford. Looking forward to the Pilgrim design evolution. Does it have anything to do with the 17' cutter design that you had spoke of about six months ago or was that boat for a client? I'm very interested in water ballast and your plans for it. With fuel prices of the future, it makes more and more sense. I have a huge live well / motor well on my CY that works well enough for me. It's dry storage for the motor or I can remove the waterproof hatch and flood it to insert the motor (a 4HP four-stroke) for use.

    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    John ,sorry to hear your health hasn't been up to scratch.
    A friend of mine owns Contour of Cuthill which you may recall as a Birdsall of 42 ft and a boat which has literally tens of thousands of sea miles under her.. two circumnavigations or mileage equivalents anyway.
    About a month ago Tony went down to the boat to find that the main diesel tank had perforated and dumped 40 odd litres into the bilge. What a stinking mess. By the time the tank was out and replaced the boat was covered in diesel and it was everywhere. That was just on the marina and the mantra ' thank goodness its now and not while out sailing, what on earth would you do?' has been repeated 50 times if its been 5.
    So I can only imagine the hell that Charles must have been in with a ruptured tank and a seaway.

    Anyway, I've cited the epirb experience several times now and will be again in our CYA safety notes so although its an awful thing to have happened there's some benefit to be had by others (for what its worth).
    40 minute pickup with a 30 minute flight time ... remarkable.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Glad to see your website is back up John. I was getting worried. I'll be watching "Pilgrim's Progress" throughout the winter here.


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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by titanicslim View Post
    I hate to admit I knew nothing of Mr. Welsford before, but have now visited his design pages and fallen in love with a few of his boats! His miniature whaleboat is truly unique. I want to build one!

    Dave
    then you need to get the latest edition of Classic Craft magazine from the UK. they have a full write up of the whaler.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by dennisbur View Post
    then you need to get the latest edition of Classic Craft magazine from the UK. they have a full write up of the whaler.
    Would some kind soul please post a link to this magazine? I can find it not at all.

    Thanks,
    Dave

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford


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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    The first drawings ... The hull shape is very much like a larger version of John's Houdini:


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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    And Entry 2 in the diaries is up, with more details about the boat:

    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...s/08-10-19.htm

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Hi John, yes, Id agree that it was a pretty awful situation, there was diesel right through the boats interior plus the cockpit and was being tracked up onto the decks as well. Deduction suggests that the unbaffled Vetus brand tank had eitehr split from fuel surge in the awful weather or had unseated the filler pipe. I dont blame him for heading back, and plotting his position on a chart in that situation would not have been at all easy.
    You can be sure that I'll be carrying a Personal Locator Beacon after that reccommendation.

    JohnW

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    John ,sorry to hear your health hasn't been up to scratch.
    A friend of mine owns Contour of Cuthill which you may recall as a Birdsall of 42 ft and a boat which has literally tens of thousands of sea miles under her.. two circumnavigations or mileage equivalents anyway.
    About a month ago Tony went down to the boat to find that the main diesel tank had perforated and dumped 40 odd litres into the bilge. What a stinking mess. By the time the tank was out and replaced the boat was covered in diesel and it was everywhere. That was just on the marina and the mantra ' thank goodness its now and not while out sailing, what on earth would you do?' has been repeated 50 times if its been 5.
    So I can only imagine the hell that Charles must have been in with a ruptured tank and a seaway.

    Anyway, I've cited the epirb experience several times now and will be again in our CYA safety notes so although its an awful thing to have happened there's some benefit to be had by others (for what its worth).
    40 minute pickup with a 30 minute flight time ... remarkable.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    The two designs are quite closely related, but this one has massive ballast ( for a dingy) set up so that the boat can be almost self righting, plus the hull proportions have been altered to make her stronger to windward in heavy weather.

    JohnW

    Quote Originally Posted by riptide View Post
    The first drawings ... The hull shape is very much like a larger version of John's Houdini:

    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Nice looking boat, John. Great little curves here and there. Sounds like it will be a tough little boat. I like the combination of water and lead ballast very creative. Will the steel centerboard be flat or will it have any cross sectional shape? Maybe you could glue on some oak onto the sides of the centerboard and then shape that. How long is this boat???

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    5M long, for the metrically challenged thats a bit over 16 ft.
    The centerboard will be half inch steel plate, rounded leading edge and tapered trailing edge. By increasing the width with wooden packers to get a foil shape the volume is increased which negates to a large degree the weight of the plate. That plus the keel area is large enough to compensate for the slight loss of efficiency means that she should hang on pretty well even when moving slowly.

    JohnW

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Nice looking boat, John. Great little curves here and there. Sounds like it will be a tough little boat. I like the combination of water and lead ballast very creative. Will the steel centerboard be flat or will it have any cross sectional shape? Maybe you could glue on some oak onto the sides of the centerboard and then shape that. How long is this boat???
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Q: What are the provisions for auxilary power? Oar or outboard or inboard?

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Great-looking boat, John, even if it's too heavy to row far. I'm looking forward to reading your diaries as the design progresses.

    Why a sloop rather than a yawl (as on Walkabout, Navigator, and Pathfinder)?

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Paskey View Post
    ...Why a sloop rather than a yawl (as on Walkabout, Navigator, and Pathfinder)?
    Yes, I am curious too. I personally would not dare singlehanding the high seas without a Mizzen.
    But I do remember that John wrote that he will decide rig details later, maybe a yawl rig is still very much an option at this time?
    Claus

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Hi Steve, good to hear from you. The Walkabout design that you comissioned is now past 50 sets of plans sold, mostly in the USA. Its been popular, thanks for starting that ball rolling, the spec that you set has worked well.

    On Pilgrim. If you go and read the two diary notes on www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz you'll see that I have mentioned a vanishingly small budget, an existing set of spars, a need for a boat that is very strong to windward in open sea conditions, and have drawn in a staysail jib as a storm sail . Although she wont sail to windward, I expect the boat to be controllable in heavy weather under that sail alone. Hove to under staysail only she wont sit head straight to wind like a Pathdfinder Yawl but with all that ballast, wide side decks and a very large proportion of her interior being bouyancy tanks heaving to 50 or 60 deg off will be a more viable option than it might be with a normal open boat.

    JohnW




    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Paskey View Post
    Great-looking boat, John, even if it's too heavy to row far. I'm looking forward to reading your diaries as the design progresses.

    Why a sloop rather than a yawl (as on Walkabout, Navigator, and Pathfinder)?
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Three options, I have a 4 hp Yamaha outboard, and that will go into a slot in the transom, The keel and rudder layout means that I'll be able to scull her short distances by waggling the tiller, and I plan to carry a single two piece sweep (long oar) stowed under the side deck and used standing up facing forward with a knee against the tiller and the sweep through a rowlock over the starboard quarter. If one man can move a dirty bottomed 5 ton fishing boat like that in the 1800s then Pilgrim will be a piece of cake.

    JohnW


    Quote Originally Posted by dennisbur View Post
    Q: What are the provisions for auxilary power? Oar or outboard or inboard?
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    John Welsford,

    Thought you might be interested in these extra tall oarlocks available from Ducktrap Woodworking:

    http://www.duck-trap.com/hardware.html



    I would not profit from your purchase of these but I have a pair and they work great! The advantage might be that you could generate a little more power than with a sweep, you'd still be standing up facing forward and you would not be depending on a spliced together sweep for propulsion. They are very heavy-duty and have a hole for securing them to the boat. With a couple of ash oars you'd have good solid backup for the 4HP Yammy.

    Also I noticed that System Three has a special epoxy for gluing wood to steel (Metlweld)

    http://www.systemthree.com/p_st_metlweld.asp

    ...in case you change your mind about putting a more efficient cross-section on your centerboard. Evidently the white oak here in the Southeastern U.S. is different from your available white oak. The white oak that we have barely floats because it's so heavy. And there is a way of gluing and screwing one side on at a time so that you're not entirely depending on the glue. It would be a lot of trouble to do but should help a little to windward which I thought was important for this boat.

    I'm enjoying your open air design process and wish you the very best in your build.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Hey JW. any progress on Pilgrim? You've got us all hanging on tenterhooks here.
    Cedric

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Thanks for the offer Kenjamin, but both the straight 1/2in steel place centerboard and the sweep oar are there by choice , not because I cant get the product to do it any differently. I enjoy a sweep oar, much easier on my damaged spine than oars when moving a heavy boat, and the flat plate with rounded leading edge and tapered trailing edge actually works very well at the rigs optimum windward angle. That flat plate may have theoretical disadvantages but in practice it allows a much narrower cb slot withought having to fit feathers , it copes with being dragged through mud and sand, it copes with bouncing off rocks or gravelly beaches, it can be used to stop the boat dead in shallow water simply by dropping it onto the bottom, helps a lot with stability and is real easy to make and maintain.

    I've a pile of System 3 product by the way, and will be reporting on how I find that in use, along with reports on tools and other product. I ve just written up one 12 month long "test" ( lunch hours at the dayjob are useful) on a Bosch GEX 125 random orbital sander. I also have a Hitachi 2 spped 1'2 in chuck drill, it will be next up after the Bosch.

    Nope, sorry, you'll have to wait until I get the next update to the Pilgrim Diaries done.

    JohnW ( the self opinionated designer one)


    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    John Welsford,

    Thought you might be interested in these extra tall oarlocks available from Ducktrap Woodworking:

    http://www.duck-trap.com/hardware.html



    I would not profit from your purchase of these but I have a pair and they work great! The advantage might be that you could generate a little more power than with a sweep, you'd still be standing up facing forward and you would not be depending on a spliced together sweep for propulsion. They are very heavy-duty and have a hole for securing them to the boat. With a couple of ash oars you'd have good solid backup for the 4HP Yammy.

    Also I noticed that System Three has a special epoxy for gluing wood to steel (Metlweld)

    http://www.systemthree.com/p_st_metlweld.asp

    ...in case you change your mind about putting a more efficient cross-section on your centerboard. Evidently the white oak here in the Southeastern U.S. is different from your available white oak. The white oak that we have barely floats because it's so heavy. And there is a way of gluing and screwing one side on at a time so that you're not entirely depending on the glue. It would be a lot of trouble to do but should help a little to windward which I thought was important for this boat.

    I'm enjoying your open air design process and wish you the very best in your build.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    I'm very pushed on a couple of other jobs that circumstances have made me evry late completeing Cedric, need to get that done before I can do much on my own project.
    How you going anyway?
    JohnW

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric Rhyn View Post
    Hey JW. any progress on Pilgrim? You've got us all hanging on tenterhooks here.
    Cedric
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    I hear you John Welsford. There's much to be said for simplicity and ease of maintenance. People think I'm crazy for riding a one-speed bicycle but it's geared for the hills I climb and that's all that matters.

    Speaking of tools, have you tried Makita's 18V Li-ion impact driver? My neighbor tried mine and had to buy one. They are incredibly powerful yet offer lots of control and not as slow as the others. Also can you get Bosch to loan you one of their little power planers perfect for mast and spar building or putting shape on anything. It's so small that it gives you great feel for the surface you're changing.



    Looking forward to the Pilgrim build please take lots of pictures.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    I also really like my little Bosch power plane. I've used Makita cordless tools for years, and really like them. That impact driver is a treat. I put off buying one, thinking they were a gimmick, or just meant for the automotive industry, but now that I have one, I use it a lot. The only thing I don't like about it is the noise. I don't have to put on earmuffs to use the drills. I do with the impact driver.


    "One only needs two tools in life: WD-40 to make things go, and duct tape to make them stop"

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    At last count I had 22 hand power tools, a Bosch power plane was among them but it cooked one of the cutterblock shaft bearings to such an extent that it melted the outer casing. To be fair I bought it because it was on special, ( it had been in a shop window display and was faded from being in the sunlight) and was nice and light. It did a lot of work, and on the job that killed it was being used pretty hard, well outside its intended envelope. But it was disappointing to have to go and buy another one. I bought a GMC cheapie as a temporary stand in, and its survived and performed surprisingly well so far.
    Its the only Bosch tool that Ive had fail, and I use power tools pretty hard.

    I am going to be working through my selection on power tools over the next year or three and will be replacing all of the unsatisfactory ones, there are several due for the chop. I'll keep you posted.

    Pilgrim? I have some of the work here at the dayjob and will be spending lunch hours on it so I can make some progress on "my" job and still get the paying design job done in the evenings at home.

    You'll get another update to the Pilgrim diaries this weekend, mostly notes on design and structure but with luck I'll have a pic of the stem template to give you an idea of the size of the thing, this is, for a 5m long open boat, a BIG boat.

    JohnW


    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I also really like my little Bosch power plane. I've used Makita cordless tools for years, and really like them. That impact driver is a treat. I put off buying one, thinking they were a gimmick, or just meant for the automotive industry, but now that I have one, I use it a lot. The only thing I don't like about it is the noise. I don't have to put on earmuffs to use the drills. I do with the impact driver.


    "One only needs two tools in life: WD-40 to make things go, and duct tape to make them stop"
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    I see that John has posted an update, or at least a diary note at

    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...im/updates.htm

    I was very interested as to how a designer works out how thick to make the skin and how much framing there is behind it. Some designers have ( including me, although I've only designed the one boat, the families 65 ft fishing boat about 30 years ago ) relied on Lloyds or ABS standard scantilings, some I know just look at what is common practice for boats of the type that they are building, but this is the first time that I have heard of someone doing independent testing to see what works. I wonder where he got his base figures from?

    Cerdric Rhyn

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    A few pictures on Steve Earley's Log of Spartina (a Pathfinder) site of a fine Pilgrim nearing completion...

    http://logofspartina.blogspot.com/20...at-on-mid.html

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    The same Pilgrim nearly finished by 'Chip' Mathews. You can see the close remblance to Sundowner Mr. Welsford's blue water cruiser.

    Pilgrim can boast high form stability, high keel stability, sub floor storage, flat floor sleeping, pitch damping, side decks, fore and aft and subfloor buoyancy, storm jib, well stayed rig, a decent freeboard and self righting from 90 degrees for coastal cruising.





    Lovely colour scheme.

    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 06-13-2011 at 06:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Pilgrim from John Welsford

    Beauty. She looks like she could handle some inclement weather.

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