Looking for a modern dinghy design

[Grand Crom]

A few years ago, while my wife was at the clinic giving birth to our first son, I build a pram/tender for our boat using stitch and glue plywood. First kid, first home made pram, one great week... I had a lot of fun doing it and when the familly now embark on this pram, I always think about these happy moments.

Now, the kid has grown up a bit (he is 7) and wants to sail. As I have some spare time, I told him we are going to build his first dinghy. I am looking for a modern design/plan for plywood/stitch and glue construction. Looking around, I have found a very nice looking boat: http://www.cantierinordest.com/en/truc-12.aspx. This Truc 12 has got everything we are looking for:
- It is light and can be transported on top of the car,
- It is simple and can be rigged very fast,
- It is has different sails so that my son can learn sailing it and I can have fun with it,
- It has a very nice look.
I would like to know if any of the wooden boat forum members would know where I could find a similar design, adapted to plywood and stich and glue construction method.

Thanks

[Grand Crom]

My first pram: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6yDbEZrfGo...la+godille.jpg

[Thorne]

Looks like WAY too much boat for your average 7-year-old! Fun, but better for 17 perhaps?


Why not build or pick up a Sabot, Sabotina or Bullship (El Toro)? That way he'd have other kids to sail with and race against, and work up to the skills needed for a hot-rod like the Truc.

[Crewman]

A few years ago, while my wife was at the clinic giving birth to our first son, I build a pram/tender for our boat using stitch and glue plywood. First kid, first home made pram, one great week... I had a lot of fun doing it and when the familly now embark on this pram, I always think about these happy moments.

Now, the kid has grown up a bit (he is 7) and wants to sail. As I have some spare time, I told him we are going to build his first dinghy. I am looking for a modern design/plan for plywood/stitch and glue construction. Looking around, I have found a very nice looking boat: http://www.cantierinordest.com/en/truc-12.aspx. This Truc 12 has got everything we are looking for:
- It is light and can be transported on top of the car,
- It is simple and can be rigged very fast,
- It is has different sails so that my son can learn sailing it and I can have fun with it,
- It has a very nice look.
I would like to know if any of the wooden boat forum members would know where I could find a similar design, adapted to plywood and stich and glue construction method.

Thanks

Hello,

The DIY and Stitch & Glue kits are nice subject. Various people design these boats although it is not so easy task to design them as builder-friendly constructions.

What you are looking for is modern design as you called it. In September 2008 brand-new DIY and S&G technology-based sailboat entered market. It is 3-person gaff-rigged Robinson sailboat. I think that for every man wording "modern" may mean various things but I may add that the Robinson has been designed by aerospace engineer, experienced boat designer and qualified sailor, i.e. by the person for whom aero-hydrodynamics, as required also in boat designing, is his passion and profession.

For more information about the Robinson see:
http://www.kamayachts.com/robinson.html
http://www.kamayachts.com/robinsongalery.html

Best regards

C.

[keyhavenpotterer]

I liked the Truc 12 so much I asked Michael Storer to do a similar boat using the Truc and Goat island Skiff as start points. Agree with other posters that she is too big for a 7 year old. Oppi right boat for him but not with you on board.

How about Michael's version of the PDR.

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/Sites/PDRinfo/

Not the best looking but looks a lot of fun, and a quick build so a youngster does not get board. If you search the site there is a nice blog of a youngster building one.

Brian

[MiddleAgesMan]

Dudley Dix has designed exactly what you are looking for, the Paper Jet 14:

http://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm

You start with the unarig (cat rig) for simplicity but as his skill and strength and weight increases you can move up twice for better performance (and more dollars).

This boat was written up in a recent issue of our host's great magazine. Look for it, one or two issues ago.

He's not currently selling the plans; his site states you have to buy the kit of pre-cut parts and the plans are included in the package. I suspect cutting the parts is pretty critical and he doesn't want a bunch of boats built from parts that weren't laid out or sized correctly. An even bigger disaster would occur if someone bought the plans and proceeded to build the boat out of cheap exterior plywood (even marine fir plywood).

Here is the US source for the kit:

http://www.thirdcoastcomposites.com/...=article&sid=1

At $995 for the plywood parts (4mm okoume) that seems like a bargain to me. (no, I have no connection I just think this boat is the bee's knees.)

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I think you are being rather adventurous for a child's learner boat. You need a traditional style dinghy so the child has something to hang onto when things go astray. Which they will.
Also it would help if it was slow, stabile and easy to store. And something you can peddle if the child decides sailing isn't for him.
The one thing I beg of you. No PDR! It's just as easy to build a child's boat that looks like a boat. Kids have taste too.
Google up PK78 or one of it's larger bretheren. A lovely boat and very commodious. Plans are cheap. S&G construction for fast assembly. Light enough to be cartopped. Fits easily into a medium sized pickup bed. And designed by a naval architect, to boot.

[MiddleAgesMan]

Grand Com posted that he wanted something he could build that would be similar to the high performance production boat in his link, something his 7 year old son might enjoy. He didn't say he wanted something he could set the kid loose in so I assume Grand Com will be along in the early stages for training and safety reasons.

With that in mind, I repeat--the Paper Jet 14 is exactly what he said he was looking for.

Here is what Dix has to say as an introduction to the design:

The Paper Jet 14 is designed primarily as a training boat, with the intention that it can cater for a wide range of sailing skills. I wanted a boat that will allow a club to race it as a class boat that will give exciting sailing to those who have the skills but will also allow less experienced sailors to develop their sailing skills in the same boat at a much lower level of performance.

The same features that I designed into it for club use will allow a family to use one hull as the platform on which Dad can have his excitement of blasting across large expanses of water but junior can sail the same boat (if he can pry it loose from Dad's grip) with a smaller rig and at slower speed. <<unquote

When I finish my Goat Island Skiff I am thinking I might build one of these boats. I wouldn't think of going out in one in anything but the Unarig (cat rigged with unstayed mast) but if it appeals to some of the younger go-fast crowd it would be easy enough to move up to one of the faster rigs. I'm 60 years old and about 50 pounds heavier than I should be but I have two sons and four nephews, anyone of which might get interested in taking the Paper Jet on to a higher level.

[garland reese]

This one is not stitch and glue, but strip built with plywood bulkheads. It is an NS14 class boat. Pretty simple but should give some spirited performance. Have a look at the Delta V At Northwest Marine Designs. Again, I know it's not stitch and glue, but strip building is not difficult.

http://www.nwmarinedesign.com/

[johnw]

I think if you value the child's life, you will not do the Paper Jet 14. That's great for a teenager, not for a 7-year-old. Sabot or El Toro. Or why not something you can sail together, like a Penguin? When I was eight, I started learning in a Merrimack. Not as lively as a Penguin, but safe, and a great picnic boat.

[Wiley Baggins]

I find myself agreeing with Thorne, Cuyahoga Chuck, and johnw. I'll add a couple of candidates, although I think their recommendations of popular classes offer the best options.

I'm no longer a fan of stitch-and-glue for this sort of boat, but these two can readily be built that way. I encourage you to take a look at Bob Baker's PUDDLEDUCK and TERN.

http://www.by-the-sea.com/bakerboatw...f/dinghies.pdf

[Crewman]

Of course all the forumers are right that the DIY kits safety is very important factor. Could you comment it a little wider in view of the fact that you are from various continents and countries?

In the European Union the law for DIY kits is not clear and precise. Every one boat manufacturer has to meet big catalog of law and technical requirements when he builds composite boats and to give his client "Declaration of Conformity of Recreational Craft with the Design, Construction and Noise Emission requirements of Directive 94/25/EC as amended by Directive 2003/44/EC". But for the DIYs there is law gap I would say. The European boats must be unsinkable but there is not one word about unsinkability of the DIYs. As can be seen various manufacturers of the DIYs give or do not give flotation tanks in their boats.

Regards

C.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

And, from what I have heard from French builders on another forum, France, itself, is VERY demanding when presented with boats built by amateurs.

[Hwyl]

It's not modern or even a very nice boat, but it's obligatory for a seven year old. The Optimist. Racing fleets everywhere. A simple boat to sail and more support than any other dinghy in the world.

[David G]

I think you are being rather adventurous for a child's learner boat. You need a traditional style dinghy so the child has something to hang onto when things go astray. Which they will.
Also it would help if it was slow, stabile and easy to store. And something you can peddle if the child decides sailing isn't for him.
The one thing I beg of you. No PDR! It's just as easy to build a child's boat that looks like a boat. Kids have taste too.
Google up PK78 or one of it's larger bretheren. A lovely boat and very commodious. Plans are cheap. S&G construction for fast assembly. Light enough to be cartopped. Fits easily into a medium sized pickup bed. And designed by a naval architect, to boot.

I agree with C'Chuck and many of the posters who say the boat you propose looks way too technical, large, and fast for a 7 year old. Maybe in another 8-10 years. I too would be thinking about a more traditional dinghy.

And then there's the Puddle Duck Racer. As an aside, I'm not sure why C'Chuck seems to have a crusade going against the Puddle Duck Racer. AFIK, he's never sailed one, built one, owned one, or even seen one in the flesh. I have to sympathize with his objections to the looks though. Before I built one, I thought they were a joke. A semi-boat for those who had no woodworking skills and no aesthetic judgement. As a professional woodworker who designed very high end furniture for years, I sort of thought they were beneath me. Then I let myself be talked into hosting a boatbuilding soire for a bunch of my boat club who wanted to each build a PDR... and into building one myself, as long as I was there. I got the hull done, and hung it on the shop wall for 2.5 years - still uninspired. Then, one of the fellows bribed me to finish it, by offering to sew me a sail for it. So, I finished the boat, have sailed it a few times, and find - to my surprise - that I absolutely love it.

In truth, the PDR is a hugely fun boat. It is light and responsive - giving very quick feedback. For that reason, and for the incredible stability, I'd say it was a great boat for a 7 year old. It's big enough that dad can go along at first, and safe enough to send the boy out alone once he gets some sailing rudiments down. However, there is still the issue of its looks. If your son isn't put off by the notion of owning a boat that looks more like a masonry mixing trough than a sleek Herreshoff design, then a PDR is a quick, cheap way to test the waters of sailing with him. I think you'll find it fun too.


"She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon" -- Groucho Marx

[Rapelapente]

I've seen this TRUC (could be translated in "Gyzmo") sailing around my schooner. Amazing thing.
It looks like a scale model WALLY !!!Really a beautyfull boat, ans so fast ! Certainly reserved to experimented sailors.
My kids enjoyed learning to sail on Optimist, obviously a more adapted dinghy!

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I agree with C'Chuck and many of the posters who say the boat you propose looks way too technical, large, and fast for a 7 year old. Maybe in another 8-10 years. I too would be thinking about a more traditional dinghy.

And then there's the Puddle Duck Racer. As an aside, I'm not sure why C'Chuck seems to have a crusade going against the Puddle Duck Racer. AFIK, he's never sailed one, built one, owned one, or even seen one in the flesh. I have to sympathize with his objections to the looks though. Before I built one, I thought they were a joke. A semi-boat for those who had no woodworking skills and no aesthetic judgement. As a professional woodworker who designed very high end furniture for years, I sort of thought they were beneath me. Then I let myself be talked into hosting a boatbuilding soire for a bunch of my boat club who wanted to each build a PDR... and into building one myself, as long as I was there. I got the hull done, and hung it on the shop wall for 2.5 years - still uninspired. Then, one of the fellows bribed me to finish it, by offering to sew me a sail for it. So, I finished the boat, have sailed it a few times, and find - to my surprise - that I absolutely love it.

In truth, the PDR is a hugely fun boat. It is light and responsive - giving very quick feedback. For that reason, and for the incredible stability, I'd say it was a great boat for a 7 year old. It's big enough that dad can go along at first, and safe enough to send the boy out alone once he gets some sailing rudiments down. However, there is still the issue of its looks. If your son isn't put off by the notion of owning a boat that looks more like a masonry mixing trough than a sleek Herreshoff design, then a PDR is a quick, cheap way to test the waters of sailing with him. I think you'll find it fun too.


"She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon" -- Groucho Marx

I'd like to haggle the *** question with you, David, but every mention of those fateful letters, ***, brings out that guy from Oz. I ain't going around and around with him any more.
Here's my D4. The plans are free and have been downloaded hundreds of thousands of times by builders around the globe. Best of all it looks like a boat.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/display...bum=343&pos=19

[johnw]

I have to say, the PDR looks like great fun. And I really like the leg-of-mutton sprit rig, which I've sailed with a lot on sharpies.

[David G]

C'Chuck,

My name isn't Mike, but what the hey - anything but late for dinner, eh?

I certainly can't argue with you that the D4 looks more like a boat than a PDR. I've never sailed in one, but you look like you're having fun.We did, however, built 2 D5's in my shop. I didn't get to play with them, as they were commissioned for a kids sailing club. The feedback was that the kids like 'em fine, but the more experienced sailors said they were an awkward combination of tender and slow. Maybe the slow part was how they were rigged. How is yours? And, really, what do you have against the PDR's? Am I right that you're not familiar with them except for fotos? Why badmouth them without knowing much about them? Is it the looks? If so, that's certainly understandable. Aesthetics, though, is a subjective and personal judgement, and you should qualify your criticism until you've had a chance to check one out in person.

Because of the feedback I received about the D4/D5 I think I'd recommend a Welsford Tender Behind or Sherpa if I was looking for something similar. All available feedback on those two has been superlative. Has anyone had a chance to compare the Welsford boats with the D's in the flesh?

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...hind/index.htm

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/sherpa/index.htm


"Criticism is prejudice made plausible" -- H.L. Mencken

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

C'Chuck,

My name isn't Mike, but what the hey - anything but late for dinner, eh?

I certainly can't argue with you that the D4 looks more like a boat than a PDR. I've never sailed in one, but you look like you're having fun.We did, however, built 2 D5's in my shop. I didn't get to play with them, as they were commissioned for a kids sailing club. The feedback was that the kids like 'em fine, but the more experienced sailors said they were an awkward combination of tender and slow. Maybe the slow part was how they were rigged. How is yours? And, really, what do you have against the PDR's? Am I right that you're not familiar with them except for fotos? Why badmouth them without knowing much about them? Is it the looks? If so, that's certainly understandable. Aesthetics, though, is a subjective and personal judgement, and you should qualify your criticism until you've had a chance to check one out in person.

Because of the feedback I received about the D4/D5 I think I'd recommend a Welsford Tender Behind or Sherpa if I was looking for something similar. All available feedback on those two has been superlative. Has anyone had a chance to compare the Welsford boats with the D's in the flesh?

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...hind/index.htm

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/sherpa/index.htm


"Criticism is prejudice made plausible" -- H.L. Mencken

Sorry about the name.
The D4 and D5 are the same except for the position of the daggerboard. They are slow. The sprit rig is only 33 squares. The guy that designed these boat is a naval architect and he certainly isn't going to tell his customers to fly 60 or more squares of sail on a 65 lb. boat. I did find one 8' pram that carried 42 squares but most, Opti, US Sabot, Naples Sabot, etc., carry 36-38. The D4/D5 plans show an optional 36 squares Marconi for those that want more. The Marconi requires a bit of rake to the mast.
I don't find the boat tender. When things get dicey, and they certainly did once, I sit on the bottom. The only trouble I had was a dry mouth. Both my hands were occupied and I couldn't get to the water bottle.
The only shortcoming I have found is the rear seat extends to far forward so there's not sufficient leg room for comfortable rowing. But that seat and it's mate make for an exteme amount of floatation which gives me a comforting feeling.

[Boatmik]

The brief is for a boat that will be a good learning boat for a child but be sailable by an adult.

See Chuck is at his anti PDR thing again ... oh well ... he can't let it slide once. Try a PDR one one day Chuck ... you might find it acceptable after all, though I think you will have to stick to your guns after all you have said on this subject in the past.

The sticky criterion in the original post is that the boat sounds like it has to Go Fast for an adult with an alternative rig.

Both the Paper Jet and the Truc are too much boat for a small child. Could be good for parent and child together ... but at 7 years old it is going to be a bit hard to pull on a jib of the size on the Jet. Most of the good small boats for kids are around the 8ft mark. You can go a bit bigger by the time they are in their early teens. The hull size is one part of the equation. The other point is that most kid's boats seem to hover around 30 to 40 square feet in a mainsail only configuration.

This keeps the sail AND the hull within the size for a child to handle and right from capsize.

However the purpose built kid's boats will not be very good performers with an adult aboard as they float too deep.

But as soon as you move away from a kid's boat to an adults boat even if it is only 8ft long ... then the boat becomes too hard to handle for a small child and they won't get a lot of enjoyment out of it. In a two or three or four years the options start to open up a lot better, starting with the more "adultish" 8+ footers, some of which are mentioned above.

At the same time NO 8ft boat with an adult aboard is going to have much of a feeling of real high performance even with a big rig. Around the 12ft mark is where there is enough spread of volume to start getting quite nice performance. The downside of the Truc is that if you look at the photos with two aboard the cockpit floor is wet from the transom to about half way forward. I would suspect that it sinks its stern if so laden and not moving. Much more ideal for one person.

So I think that there are two contradictory requirements here ... the child's needs and the adult's performance requirement.

I actually think the boats that probably go closest to being suitable for an adult OR a child would be the Joel White Nutshell or maybe the Bolger Nymph - but neither have buoyancy tanks (they could be added) and I doubt a child would find it easy to right after a capsize anyhow. The tender behind looks very like a Nutshell in profile and has the buoyancy tanks but might be equally difficult for a child to get upright. By the time he is 10 or 11 he may be able to right these boats with suitable buoyancy.

Maybe even the D4 because it has such a modest sail area and clearly can carry an adult OK. Chuck has used his D4 a lot so might be able to talk through suitability. I imagine it might still be a bit tricky for a small child to right from capsize in terms of reaching the centreboard or having enough weight to pull the boat up again.

But I really think one of the child's classes will be a better alternative for many of the reasons mentioned above and a boat that suits the child's capability is much more likely to be the one that will give the most positive experience. Dad can always build something for himself with a bit more GO that he can use with his kids and enjoy the performance of.

I don't know how popular something like the venerable Mirror would be in your area ... but adult steering and a child under 10 makes a good racing combination and the child could be steering in races in another 4 or 5 years ... I mention this as a thought experiment because I think it shows how much better a child's class boat would be ... if he wants to steer he can do it from the start.

Best wishes
Michael Storer.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

- It is light and can be transported on top of the car,
- It is simple and can be rigged very fast,
- It is has different sails so that my son can learn sailing it and I can have fun with it,
- It has a very nice look.

Mick is dead right - filling this brief is going to be tough.... But I think we can find the bits.

Start with a canoe

Add Outriggers

Add 60 square feet of lugsail and you have a capable stable platform for the Adult (and kiddy) to learn about sailing

Take the Outriggers, discard the canoe and add a Small rig
and you have a "KiddyCat" - though you may need to change the front crossbeam and add tramp. and rudder(s).


I did this as a thought game - if anyone wants to try it for real - do speak to Boatmik first - there may be sound reasons why it is impractical.

[mj_lover]

flits? very forgiving, designed for kids from 8-16, pretty quick, not laser fast, but fast enough to not get board, It is light, but i don't recommend car topping, but you could if needed.

[MiddleAgesMan]

Quote--"...at 7 years old it is going to be a bit hard to pull on a jib of the size on the Jet."

That is what makes the Paper Jet the perfect design for a father and 7 year old son--there is no jib in the Unarig version. With dad aboard the kid is going to learn to sail in relative safety. When he's 9 or 10 he should be proficient enough to take a buddy along for ballast, with a responsible adult nearby keeping an eye on things.

Around this same time dad decides to set it up with the standard rig. Same mast moved to the after step...added headstay and shrouds...and a jib. The kid has 3 years experience at this point and he's big enough to learn to handle the Jet's jib. Three more years go by and dad starts dreaming of the third rig so he fabricates the mast extension and the bow sprit and starts acquiring the other bits and pieces to turn it into a really high performance platform. He and the son start learning this rig together and by the time the kid is a full sized 17 or 18 year old he'll be ready to do some truly fast sailing and racing.

The original poster never said he wanted something he could turn a 7 year old kid loose in and the boat he wants to copy in plywood is certainly not for 7 year olds sailing alone. I think he knows that.

That's why I still think the Paper Jet fits the bill perfectly.

One more thing--if you expect your kid to get excited about sailing you don't stick him or her in a tub that isn't capable of exceeding 2 knots in the sort of winds you teach beginning kids to sail in.

[BarnacleGrim]

Before temperatures dropped, making epoxy work impossible, I was working on a Hannu Vartiala 10 1/2 ft skiff. It's as simple as construction gets, but it's a bit big for me to use as a tender for my folkboat (started the skiff before I bought the folkboat). So maybe I'll make a basic rig for it. I was thinking of making the cheapest possible sailing dinghy, perhaps with an unstayed lateen or gaff rig. Or maybe a sprit or a lug sail could work.

I was also at one point thinking of building a Dudley Dix Argie 10 or 15. I also quite like Glen-L's sailing dinghies.

[Woxbox]

I think Stazzer is on the right track. A multihull, specfically a small tri, doesn't rely on crew weight to be safe. Kurt Hughes has a couple, and there are all those 3-meter designs. (They actually get ballast to be fair in competition) But for two, when your son gets a bit bigger, you're going to be beyond the cartopping range. The security of sitting in a tri learning to sail is great for kids -- they're not worried anymore about turning the boat over. Accidental gybe? No big deal. The same is true for adults new to sailing, actually -- if there's no risk of calamity, the learning goes much better.

[johnw]

flits? very forgiving, designed for kids from 8-16, pretty quick, not laser fast, but fast enough to not get board, It is light, but i don't recommend car topping, but you could if needed.

What is it? The sail symbol is unfamiliar. I googled flits and came up with nothing.

[mj_lover]

its a dutch youth racing class, slowly dieing out.
3.6m long, main sail 4.9 m^2, jib 2.4m^2 and it weighs 57kg.
here is the home page http://www.flitsclubsneek.nl/index.php
and website translation http://www.freetranslation.com/

[Boatmik]

One more thing--if you expect your kid to get excited about sailing you don't stick him or her in a tub that isn't capable of exceeding 2 knots in the sort of winds you teach beginning kids to sail in.

Agree completely with this MAM!

But the original request was for a boat that was

I told him we are going to build his first dinghy.

The boy's own boat.

I don't think a lot of performance (which the Jet has in buckets) is necessary as an introduction. I think participation in what is happening and a sense of control is much more important. Not just sitting aboard and occasionally getting the mainsheet to hold in light winds.

Big powerful boats are really intimidating at the beginning - everything happens so quickly and with so much force.

But the boat chosen should sail well on all points - as is part of your subtext MAM. Most of the good Junior classes will average about 3 to 4 knots around a racecourse. In the right conditions they will get bursts up to two or three times that.

I would suggest that competent performance on all points of sail in all reasonable weathers is a great criterion. Most of the popular junior classes do this nicely.

I remember the biggest thing for me starting out at 12 years old was the freedom ... even though my little 7ft 9 scow was pretty slow with its rubber band boom vang (and 5 degree twist in the centreboard) there was a lot of fun ... in just doing it by myself in a boat appropriate to my size and strength. Big enough to take one of my friends out on .... JUST.

The bursts up to 7, 8, 9 or maybe a few more knots were as exciting to me as doing regular bursts of around 20 in a senior level dinghy some 10 years later. Maybe more so.

And it was still a thrill to go out on some of the other club members bigger faster boats - like Tornado and B2 class cats. But always went back to my little 8 footer with a greater sense of where I could get to if I got the hang of it better.

When I graduated to a lightweight 11 footer of my own with a trapeze and spinnaker ... well, I was ALMOST ready for it at 14 years. If I had started at 7 with a junior class I would have been ready for a faster boat two or three years earlier.

There is a lot to be said for a kid to be put in charge of his or her own boat. There is also a lot to be said for some crewing with more experienced people as you say.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[Crewman]

Hello Gents,


You showed beautiful DIY sailboats as Paper Jet 14 or Dutch youth racing class for instance.

And, from what I have heard from French builders on another forum, France, itself, is VERY demanding when presented with boats built by amateurs.

Thanks for this reply. If so, France is very wise. I am curious what type of flotation tanks are used by the DIYs designers? I heard that the British prefer air in these tanks whereas in other countries various foams are preferred. In our Robinson DIY kit we used two flotation tanks with foam and this is highly effective solution. The Robinson capsized through 90 degrees and recovered takes only small quantity of water to the cockpit, only from the sail, nothing directly from water because flotation tanks system holds the cockpit high over water level. It can be seen below:

I think if you value the child's life, you will not do the Paper Jet 14. That's great for a teenager, not for a 7-year-old. Sabot or El Toro. Or why not something you can sail together, like a Penguin? When I was eight, I started learning in a Merrimack. Not as lively as a Penguin, but safe, and a great picnic boat.

I agree with C'Chuck and many of the posters who say the boat you propose looks way too technical, large, and fast for a 7 year old. Maybe in another 8-10 years. I too would be thinking about a more traditional dinghy.

Both the Paper Jet and the Truc are too much boat for a small child. Could be good for parent and child together ... but at 7 years old it is going to be a bit hard to pull on a jib of the size on the Jet. Most of the good small boats for kids are around the 8ft mark. You can go a bit bigger by the time they are in their early teens. The hull size is one part of the equation. The other point is that most kid's boats seem to hover around 30 to 40 square feet in a mainsail only configuration.

There are various opinions and techniques in the world how to train children -- let's say less than 10 y/o -- for sailing. As a pilot I would say that one of the methods is similar to other one known from sport aviation, gliding mainly. I mean modern gliding of course, not older than 1930s-1950s era with simple gliders mounted to the frames and the frames mounted to ground to learn young people how the control surfaces operate in the glider.


That is why I would be very careful with criticism towards such sailboats mentioned above as very nice NS14, Paper Jet 14 or Dutch youth racing class for example. Very effective for the children is tutor/mentor system. In modern system nobody puts the children to the sailboat with order "sail!". The children are trained the same as in gliding -- from boat building course through theoretical course of sailing up to real sailing on water. And the DIY kits as well as wise programs of integration the children with their tutor/mentor (yes, it may be a father) seems to be


The Polish DIY kit Robinson represents similar idea as three other sailboats mentioned by me above (nice boats with greater ambitions) and of interest may be the fact that the Robinson seems to be not "too hard" to train the children in her. One of the European sailing club for the children negotiates now the purchase of these boats.





Thanks a lot for interesting discussion.
Best regards


C.

[Rob540]

Have a look at http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/.
Ross has a lovely approach to simple, user-friendly design. I am looking forward to the release of 'First Mate" (featured in a photo series on his site), but also see "Periwinkle" and "Phoenix !!!"

Goat Island Skiff should also be considered- by Boatmik
http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html.

Both of these guys offer real design honesty, simple, functional, beautiful form. If it's easily usable it might get used!

[johnw]

At this rate, you'll end up with two boats -- one to sail with the kid on, and one a 7-year-old can handle by himself. One thing I like about the Jet 14 is that it has rigs of varying power and can be adjusted for the level of the sailor. Unfortunately, it starts at the level of a teenager, not a child. At the Center for Wooden Boats, we use El Toros, which give the kid the freedom of sailing by themselves. More popular for this purpose is the Optimist Pram. I learned in a 13 1/2 foot Merry Mac, designed by Ned MacIntosh and sailed, as far as I know, only in Maine and New Hapshire. It was stable, safe and simple. You could do worse than find something similar.

Ned is in his 90s now. I think he built all the boats, so I don't think you could get plans. Anyway, you'll want something with built-in flotation.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Have a look at http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/.
Ross has a lovely approach to simple, user-friendly design. I am looking forward to the release of 'First Mate" (featured in a photo series on his site), but also see "Periwinkle" and "Phoenix !!!"

Goat Island Skiff should also be considered- by Boatmik
http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html.

Both of these guys offer real design honesty, simple, functional, beautiful form. If it's easily usable it might get used!

If you can teach a seven year old kid (posting #1) to pilot a 16 foot sailboat with 115 squares of sail you must be a miracle worker.

[Rob540]

I got the impression that father wanted to sail with son ie; 2 person boat that dad could also be challenged by. If he had specified a one person trainer I would have thought something small would be the way to go. Sail area can be reduced. Maybe Sabot for son, Phoenix for both.

[johnw]

Yeah, I'm leaning toward the two-boat solution, too. Maybe start with the two-person boat, and when the kid is ready for his own, get one that's appropriate to his weight.

[andrewe]

Thoughts, I first sailed with my father at age 3, on the Thames estuary. In his 12ft Fleetwind, designed when I was 1. I was allowed to go off alone at 6 but only in light conditions. At 11, I built my own small pram. 6ft , sort of optamist. But it was my OWN BOAT. I had huge fun, under sail, and with a brute of a Clinton outboard (way to big for it) . Tremendous self confidence builder. I made mistakes, but not too big, and learned a lot. I am happy I was allowed to try.
A

[Rob540]

Thoughts, I first sailed with my father at age 3, on the Thames estuary. In his 12ft Fleetwind, designed when I was 1. I was allowed to go off alone at 6 but only in light conditions. At 11, I built my own small pram. 6ft , sort of optamist. But it was my OWN BOAT. I had huge fun, under sail, and with a brute of a Clinton outboard (way to big for it) . Tremendous self confidence builder. I made mistakes, but not too big, and learned a lot. I am happy I was allowed to try.
A

Absolutely! You were so fortunate being able to set your own agenda, taking a few risks on the way. I was much happier getting in the way of the big boys on a Flying Dutchman than on my own in a bucket with a handkerchief sail. (But then I wasn't the natural sailor that my boys turned out to be)

[Grand Crom]

First of all, thank you for all your input. Really.

I have been looking and looking for that one boat that we could build. Next week, my son will be 8 and we need to decide what will be keeping us busy for the next 6+ months. I liked the Truc, because it is really looking nice, but you are absolutly right in mentioning it is too much for a kid and not enough for the kid and I. I have a 18ft Nacra catamaran and every body in the familly is afraid to come and sail it with me. So I reconsidered the question and concluded that if I go for something "fast", I will quickly be again the only one to enjoy it. So I took away the modern design part of this thread, to only keep the modern construction part (S&G); we don't want to spend our life building this boat.

An important feature for our boat is, that it must be really beautifull. Exit all the "boxe shaped" designs and other prams. One day, we ended at the Coble web page http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cobles.htm and imediatly thought that the Northumbrian 12'6" was the one we needed. Basically it answered most of our latest specifications, S&G, variable sail area, stable, well protected bow, light and beautifull boat. So after a few more days to think about it, I finally ordered the set of drawings and we are getting ready to start this construction.

Thanks

[johnw]

Hey, that looks like loads of fun!

[seasnail]

Radoslaw Werszko has some very nice looking free dinghy plans at www.dinghy.pl
(Should you change your mind and decide not to build a selway-fisher boat)

[Grand Crom]

We received today the drawings of the Coble Northumbrian 12'6". It looks really nice. Tomorrow, I will start to order the needed wood and epoxy... Some good time ahead for the end of year vacation!

[johnw]

Looks like great fun!

[Grand Crom]

Our project is already well started and our blog is just like the boat, under construction: http://kerness.blogspot.com/

All the best to the WoodenBoat Forum members for 2009.

[Rational Root]

Looks like WAY too much boat for your average 7-year-old! Fun, but better for 17 perhaps?

If he's as slow to build as I am, the kid could be 17 by the times it's finished

D

[Grand Crom]

Just to keep you updated, we are making good progress on our Northumbrian 12'6".

I am trying to post pictures, but obviously, I need to spend a few minutes to understand how this works! Anyway, you can find more pictures and a few words on http://kerness.blogspot.com/. Do not hesitate to let us some comments and recommendations!

All the best for 2009 to all the members...

[David G]

Grand Crom,

Having built a boat with my two boys, I know how much fun you are having. The boat is looking good too. Keep sending the fotos, please.

[andrewe]

Coming back to this thread, I remember a series of articles in Yachts and Yachting back in the early 60s, about a guy who used to cruise a coble, including crossing the N. Sea to the Baltic. A very sea-worthy design.His was a classic built 18ft(?)
Re: The French attitude to amateur built boats. They have made all home builds self certified, the words used when I registered mine where," It's your neck if it sinks" BUT, you cannot sell it for 5 years after first use. There are also limitations about use under 6NM from a safe haven. If you need to go further then it gets more complicated under the EU's Recreational Craft Directive.
A
Grand Crom. See you at MorBihan in May ??

Rob540,
I am now amazed at the freedom I had. If my father had allowed me to sail across Falmouth Bay in my little craft in the current PC climate, he would end up in court. Different (happier) worlds.
A

[johnw]

Glad to see you're making such good progress. She's going to be a beauty.

[Grand Crom]

Good progress again this week. The inside is close to finish, just needs to instal the decks and benches.

I had one question regarding the way to rig up properly the main sail (gunter rig). If anyone has some good links to share, I would be interested. Especially, I am wondering if I need to instal one hallyard for the gaff, or two?



From: François Vivier "Construction bois LES TECHNIQUES MODERNES"

I will post more pictures on our blog: http://kerness.blogspot.com/

[andrewe]

Crom, I use the single drisse(halyard) on my gunter rigged Oughtred boat. My first thought was that I would need to adjust the rope round the mast depending on wind conditions. In practice I find that once I got it right (and marked it) it seems to cater for most conditions. Even reefed. The spars are all birdsmouth so a bit lighter than solid, no flex problems so far. The distance between the yard and the mast at the head is about 2", a function of the cut of the sail. I find no need for parrel beads at the throat, just a loop of rope. Mainsail is 69 sq.ft
Andrew