Redbird Progress

[Sailor]

Bouffe la linge? Bouffe being food. MMMMMM I like that!

[P.L.Lenihan]

I thought you would too Sailor.Besides,a bit of pie is always good for what ails ya,eh!


Cheers!


Peter

[Sailor]

Well today there was a bit of progress made. I say a bit because it really was a small bit. I did have to work after all. First thing I did was to work at the joint between the pieces of my decks. Then I made up a spline to join said pieces. I took a piece of maple to the bench, measured the space it needed to fill then marked it out. Took it to the bandsaw and cut just outside the line. Then a block plane took it to the line while sandpaper made the fine adjustment needed for a tight fit. A few trials and it fit. Here's what it looked like after I rounded off the end. I don't want to have any gaps in there for rot to start (It'll be filled with epoxy anyway) so I made an attempt at rounding the end that will be in the deck. Here are a few shots of the spline.



Then it was assembled like so:




That dark patch is a little bit of colour in the grain of the Bird's eye maple I used. There's some decent bird's eyes in the wood. One will have more than the other though. It's beautifully figured. I'm looking forward to seeing what it will look like once shaped and fitted. So anxious am I in fact that I tried one in place. Sort of.

[Sailor]

Here's one resting near where it will be when I'm finished her.


Here's the next little bit of work I did today. I sanded my handles a bit more. They seem to get a good rubbing down once every few years to get the dirt out of the grain so I can varnish them. I never seem to get around to varnishing them though and they go back into some dark dirty corner of the shop to get dirty once more. Eventually I'll need them and they'll get their coat of varnish. Maybe sooner than I think.


Next I built a jig to assemble the decks in. Here's the completed jig. I ripped a 2x in half, then cut it to length. The long piece is secured from below with 3 screws. Then I placed the decks either side of it and placed the smaller pieces next to them. I shot a screw up the middle of each then pushed the decks in a bit to get the angle. Once that was done, it was easy to shoot two more screws into each piece giving 3 screws per block from below and a perfectly shaped jig to assemble the decks with.

Here's a close up of some of that figured BEM I used. Nice stuff. Hard as a rock.

Here are both decks in place with the handles laid on top.

Here the deck and handle for one end are placed on the canoe. Looks like she'll be just fine once I get the inwales on.

Bear in mind that none of these pieces are epoxied yet. I may do that tomorrow if it's warm enough. I may even bring that epoxy and deck jig in the houes.... But what about the scarphs in the wales?

[Sailor]

Before we go back to those scarphs, here's one of the coolest parts about those little decks you see up there.

THEY'RE CAMBERED!!! I love them. They are going to look so cool once this thing hits the water. Dad and Andrew, EAT YOUR HEART OUT! MY CANOE HAS NO HOLES IN IT!!!

[Sailor]

Here's a shot of my super duper gossamer shaving remover. I'll sell you one if you think you can afford it. Actually they are not too expensive. All you need are a few bucks, a hockey stick and a puck. Every Canadian boy who dares to call himself so has at least one stick and a bucket of pucks on hand at any given moment of the day.


It takes a bit of poking around to find one with a bit of a curve to it, in the right direction but once you find it......
You can take these thin little shavings off.

It makes for a great finish. Because of the slight curve to the piece of glass, I can create a bit of a hollow in the faying surfaces so I can be confident that at least SOME of the googe I put there will still be there after clamping. I'll rough up the surface once I have the correct shape. I like to know that once I epoxy the $h!t out of that joint, it's not going anywhere. I dread it breaking when I bend it in actually. Fingers crossed it'll bend in perfectly and not cause any problems. If it does........ how do you make an angry smiley?

[Sailor]

It's almost embarassing how trustworthy I must be.....

[Sailor's Brother]

It's almost embarassing how trustworthy I must be.....

The tissue pape beside it is for when you "slip" while using the scrapers??? Dude, Lee Valley... 18 bucks and you get a set of 4 real decent scrapers... if you need direction on how to sharpen them ask your little brother.... you could even spring for the 40 bucks and get yourself a holder for it so your finger's don't get tired...

sheeeeeshhhhhh

[Sailor]

Or take a look in our host's pages and find this handy little tip about broken glass. It works wonders, it's free and as you can see, I've got plenty of it. There's enough in that bucket to last a lifetime most likely. I've got a few scrapers but I prefer the glass for a razor sharp edge that you don't have to put on it yourself. Can you sharpen your scrapers with a hammer? NO? I can make mine razor sharp with just a hammer.

[P.L.Lenihan]

I really like the way you've done the breasthooks(decks) Sailor and putting some crown(camber) on them is an excellent fine little detail which will conspire with some of your other yet-to-be-committed niceities to produce a stunning canoe! When the day comes for me to build my canoe, I'm stealing your idea for the crowned breasthook.......and you can't stop me


Cheers!


Peter

[Sailor]

I wouldn't try, Hell you can have the glueing jig if you like. I'll even give more step by step thoughts on each thing that needs to be done if Simon won't help you by drawing out exactly what you need. As for the "yet-to-be-committed niceties"..... I'll leave those to be posted once they've been committed. Until then I'll continue working as time and weather allows. Enjoy!

[Sailor]

Unlike Peter, I can't work and photograph it adequately while working with epoxy. So here's the fait accomplis. 5 clamps on each scarph. There's two nails in each scarph as well. They were predrilled and lined up on the CL of the plank. That will allow for the kerf of the saw that will get out two pieces from each of these to go right through where the nails were. The nails allow for me to position it all, lined up nicely and then disassemble it to apply the epoxy and reassemble it and not have to worry about it being out of line. Went together very well. The middle board on top (athwart the planks) is between the two pairs of nails. The next two outward are on the edges of the scarph. The outermost and widest pieces are just outside to keep things lined up. Don't want the boards slipping past one another (Nails notwhithstanding)




Heat to keep things moving along in the curing department. I took all the materials inside last night. That made sure my planks were warm. The Epoxy and Hardner was inside last nigth and warmed up before being used. (I put it in a bucket of hot water) this made sure the mix was nice and runny when I put the first coat on the surfaces. I wanted it to be as thin as possible so it would soak into the endgrain. I put thin warm epoxy on the hard maple deck edges as well after rough sanding with 60 grit to give it some tooth.


Here is the jig with decks in place. They're squeezed into the jig, tap tap tap the hammer on the end and clamps installed to keep it from sliding out becaust the garbage bag which is used to keep the epoxy from gluing my jig to my decks, is somewhat slippery and they tended to slide back out. The cross piece is screwed in with a single screw into the middle piece on the jig. This allows me to insert small wedges, seen here with the clear and green plastic bags wrapped around them for the same reason I have the garbage bag, in order to keep the cambered deck from popping upwards as I tapped them deeper into the jig. This also helped close up some of the joints. There's on that's not quite as tight as I wanted it to be but I'll take care of that once the whole shooting match comes off the jig.


The last shot shows the little tent I built to channel the heat from the heater and containing it around the pieces that need to cure. Should work pretty well. With any luck I can take them appart tomorrow and go on with sanding the hull to glass it. Or maybe rip the planks into their respective pieces. We'll see what happens next time I'm in the drydock.

[Fitz]

Sailor:

Thanks for your thread.

Do you use any thickener? I do a lot of canoe gunwales and I coat the scarfs with unthickened epoxy and then thicken the rest of the batch with colloidal silica for the glue. This may help fill any unwanted voids in your decks too.

You can probably get by with colder temperatures - although probably not now with December temps. I did some gunwales a couple of weeks ago. Temps ranged from probably 30F to 60F. I left the clamps on for a week and everything seems fine.

[whb]

Great thread. Thanks,

Howard

[Sailor]

Thanks Fitz, I do use thin and thickened epoxy. The thin stuff was put on after warming it. This made it runny to absorbe into the end grain. Then before I glued them together, I mixed a batch of thickened with West 403. This filled most of the joints beautifully. As I said though, there's one that's not quite as tight as I would have liked. It'll fill nicely with sanding dust once I get to that stage though. I chalk it up to my lack of expertise in matters of ensuring the faying surfaces mate perfectly. As for the temperatures, The hardner is good down to 4 degrees C and it was about 6 today out by my thermometer on the porch. It's warmer in my shop. (No wind but there's no heat in there so it's only a few degrees warmer) I put that space heater temporarily in the shop to ensure that it doesn't get below the minimum recomended temperature. I'm confident that it will remain above 4 degrees until the epoxy has cured. Even if it drops in a day or two, it'll be cured enough by then to enable me to remove the clamps and start finishing the pieces.

[Sailor]

Just as an afterthought, I am not going to leave the heater and plastic like that all nigth. Only while I can keep an eye on it. It's been there for about 5 hours now and isn't all that hot. It's just nicely warm underneath. The heater has a tendency to trip the breaker so it won't have a chance to do anything even if I were to leave it. The only thing to do now is sand the hull. Once the epoxy is cured I can rip the wales in half to give me my inwales and outwales down to roughly 1x1 for milling into 7/8x3/4 or so and some rough cleanup of the decks. Can't wait to start on the wales. Milling them will be very interesting. Fitz, I plan on milling scuppers into the inwales. My dad and brother both did it and it looks really good. Have you any thoughts, ideas or tips on how to turn out the best lightest prettiest gunnls?

[Fitz]

I fool around with mostly wood and canvas canoes (although I am starting a stripper in the basement), so there is no need for scuppers - the ribs provide the space between the inwale and outwale for water to drain. I know some folks just insert spacers in place of the rib ends for scuppers - no need for milling.

I don't think there is not a lot you can do to outwales. I ease the top edge, maybe with a router if I want a heavily eased edge, or maybe just sandpaper if I want a squarer profile.

I typically taper the outwale in the last 20 inches or so as shown here. I think it looks nice on canoes with high ends. Do you need to steam bend your rails?

The deck coaming here may look nice with your birdseye maple decks. It covers the end grain and dresses things up. You can steam bend it around a form and install it with brass screws.

[Sailor]

I'll be milling the scuppers into the wales. I'll have to figure out seat, handle, deck and yolk placement so I can make sure there's material there to bolt to. I'll taper the outwale in the last few feet for sure. Also the bottom will be beveled to shed a bit of weight. I find the scuppers look better milled rather than with spacers when you strip build. Maybe it's just because that's what I'm used to. Not sure if I'll need steam or not. I plan on clamping them in and easing them slowly bit by bit. There will be a long winter where I have to wait fo epoxy weather so I should be able to east them in without steam. If I need steam, that's ok too, I used to to build the stem pieces. That's a beautiful canoe you've got there by the way. As for the coaming, I prefer to leave it bare. That will keep the weight down and I like the look of the pieces. End grain won't be too much of an issue here since she'll live in a nice dry place. However that coaming does look real nice........... I wonder how much weight it would add......... I'll have to see what she looks like she'll weigh before I make that decision. I want to be able to carry this thing in the bush without having to hit the gym for a year first.

[Sailor's Brother]

Sailor, when you are planning for the placement of the seats and especially the yoke, ensure that you leave a couple extra inchs back and forth... that way you can tweak the balance just right... as for the seats... that's pretty easy... I just put them in the same location dad did :-) OK.. so for you you'll have to figure something else out... I would actually recommend putting both of them a little closer to the center than I did... maybe an inch or so each... allows your sternman's bum to be a little wider!!! as well... no sure if you thought about this, but you may want to try a layout with a yoke and a thwart... just lay it down on the boat and see how it looks before you go start cutting in the scuppers in the inwhales... 6 extra inches shouldn't be too much of a problem but...

I can't remember how I cut the scuppers... I know I rounded them with a router (dad didn't, which is why his are much more square than mine...) I think I just used a saw to cut the edges of the scuppers, then a really shart chisel to remove the excess... but it's been 11-12 years since I did that, so my memory is well... less than perfect.

Glad to read you're not putting the heater on all night... the last thing you need is another fire at that place!!!

So where should I be commenting on your photos there bro? here or on Facebook? they appear to basically be the same shots you're putting up....

[Sailor]

Wherever you like to comment. I'll use a router to make the scuppers. I thought of a yolk and a thwart but I don't really want to add the extra weight. I don't want the canoe to be weakened through lack of support either. 18 feet is about as much as you want in length before adding a thwart. I have yet to look at it I guess to see how she'll look with either. I also need to take a look at the weight issue. I want to be able to carry this thing and with an extra 6 inches she'll be a bit heavier than yours. I will use 4oz cloth on the inside which should save a bit and I'll take as much as I dare off the trim. I don't want to add weight in the form of an extra cross member or coamings to the decks if it'll add much weight. I have also considered another form of yolk. One that balance isn't an issue, ie: you can just install it and go from there. Basically imagine two thwarts spaced pretty close together near the center, say 2 or 3 feet apart. They are then either wrapped with two straps, one for each shoulder to rest on when carrying the canoe allowing you to adjust where you carry the boat to adjust for things like leaving a lifejacket strapped to the seat in one end one time but not another time you portage the canoe. Or you could just put in those thwarts and use the paddles lashed fore 'n aft about shoulder width apart to carry the boat. Either way you can adjust the ballance. I could probably have both types of carrying devices in that the yolk could be centered at a reasonable balance point and the scuppers cut from there, with bolt holes set 18 inches forward and aft of there wherever the scuppers allow. Another advantage to this method is that you can portage the canoe when facing either direction. If you singlehand her into a little spot and try to take her out of the water, you have to turn her around to get at a conventional yolk. With this setup you can hoist her up whichever way she's facing.

[MoMan]

Hey Sailor—Thanks for your thread. Last December, I bought my western red cedar, Randy Folsom’s book, announced my building intentions to all my friends and proceeded to machine my strips. Then I shelved everything while I resided my garage and built a deck. And procrastinated on the canoe.
In the last few weeks, I bought some West System epoxy and invested in some full size plans for a Bear Mountain Prospector (16’). Today I actually started cutting the plywood for the strongback!

So your thread has added some inspiration for me. Thank you. As soon as I get to a reasonable can’t-turn-back-now point of progress, I will start a new thread of my own and post some pictures. Please keep yours coming!!

[Sailor]

My pleasure. It's a fun and forgiving project. My dad's got moulds for a prospector in his shop. Doubt he'll build another canoe but he does love that shape and they were given to him. Dive in and have a blast at it. Make sure to start yourself a thread and post lots of pics.

[Sailor]

So today I went out to the shop after Gabriel was in bed. I proceeded to remove the clamps from my muckabout in goo last time I was there. Here's what the decks looked like after I removed the large clamps.

I next removed that cross piece, the wedges between the cross piece and the deck (seen here in those clear and green plastic bags) and pulled them out of their little spot. They're little spot by the way has been stowed away under the bench for either the next time I build a canoe, to loan out if anyone else needs them, or to reuse if for some reason these ones don't work. (God Forbid) At least I know they'll hold the decks in place when called upon to do that duty.
It would appear that I didn't get nearly enough goo out off before it cured. There was epoxy all over the top and bottom of them. Some of the plastic bag had even stuck to it! You can see the green on one of them that came off the bag. It's off now though. I took out the trusty old 5inch grinder and made short work of that little problem.
If you're going to do this, make sure you wear the proper PPE (personal protective equipment). Uncured epoxy isn't too terribly good to breath and after only a few days, it's cured enough to grind into a fine dust but still not cured enough to breath without posing a serious risk to your respiratory health. So here is the pair of decks fresh out of the jig and ready for some proper cleaning up.


I wonder how much work (by work I mean EXTRA work) this little project will mean for me. roughing out, fitting, trialing, making splines, glueing finishing.... I could have taken a little triangle of this material and whacked her in there. However, there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. I'm not a fan of the wrong way. (The wrong way by the way is any way that is half a$$ed, or less than the best you can do) So next I hauled out my grinder and went to town. I removed the plastic bag remnants the larger pieces of epoxy that were still stuck to it and generally took alot of the extra material off. I then broke out (Pun Intended) the glass scraper I talked about earlier and started shaving it down to where it needs to be. By now it was starting to get a little late so I packed it in. But not before taking a look at the inwales and outwales. Off clamps and out grinder. Took off the excess epoxy and scraped them a bit. Now they look like this:


And the scarphs are a bit closer up here:


I think the next step is to get the inside of that boat sanded and glassed so I can start shaping these parts. I am keen on getting more work done. I could, I guess, mill the wales to size since each of those pieces needs to be ripped up the middle along the line you see there. The nail holes used to hold the pieces in line were placed right were the saw will cut so the holes won't exist by the time I have this stuff milled to size. Anyone in Halifax have a thicknesser they would't mind loaning out for an afternoon?
That's it for today. We'll see about more progress as time allows. Hopefully soon.
Later,
Daniel

[P.L.Lenihan]

Sailor,

Next time you are doing small pieces, you may wish to consider using the not-yet-famous Tenner CEO* as seen below.Works a charm in cool and cold places,like certain parts of your house apparently.











Real simple to build from some odd scraps of plywood laying about or you could just liberate a panel from the local out door rink,at night,during a snow storm, if you have no odd scraps laying about. And aluminium foil, cheap and available damned near eveywhere, especially with Christmas just around the corner.


Cheers!



Tenner




*= Cheap Epoxy Oven

[P.L.Lenihan]

[QUOTE=Sailor;2795900]

/QUOTE]

I was looking at this picture and something troubled me. And so I looked and looked and kept on looking until it finally hit me square between the legs. The heater is in the wrong or less than optimum location. Heat rises, or at least I hope it still does in Nouvelle Ecosse and you should have it under the work, not beside it.

Just trying to be helpful


Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

Sailor, it's me again, bugging ya. But see how lovely that coaming looks on Fitz's gorgeous canoe? It would have the same effect on yours and provide a most elegant way for you to transition your inwales from their long fore and aft run through the cross over point of your decks.If you was really crazy like moi, I'd even be tempted,if I had the space, to scarph the whole shooting match together in one long "strip",steam only where the coaming is expected to go, then spring the whole works in one go inside the hull with only the two ends scarphed in situ. Weird ,eh? You know you could do a whole lot worse than emulating Fitz's fine example!!


Cheers!


Peter

[Fitz]

Coaming: It is probably a preference thing. You don't see them very often on canoes, but it occurred to me that if Sailor wanted a fancy deck, he could fabricate one pretty easily.

The weight is neglible. The one in the picture is 1/4 inch thick mahogany. It required steam bending on a form and then snaps into notches in the inwale. It is secured with brass screws to the deck and 'wales.

It is mostly decorative, but can serve to redirect a wave coming over the bow away from your lady's lap. I find coamings can get in the way while loading the canoe on racks etc. and often get broken this way.

Carry on.

[Sailor]

You are undoubtedly correct in surmising that heat still rises here in Nova Scotia. Has it started to fall elswhere? I haven't noticed. We are normally 10 years astern of most other things so it would not come as a surprise for this to have changed since I left the rest of the world for NS. My concern with the heater was at least twofold. First, the strongback is T shaped and the heat would have been passed around the sides missing the decks and scarphs completely. Second, you may not be able to tell clearly from the photo, but the cord goes up! Yes it defies gravity. I have these nifty little things on the roof trusses in my drydock where I can plug electrical appliances into them, RIGHT OVER MY WORKSPACE!. Every second rafter has one. In the odd ones between the sockets are located on the rafter angled about 40 degrees above my workbench. I'll try to remember to post a pic of the setup at some point. Back to my second point, the cord is just a bit short to reach the floor. I don't want to have it perched up on something precariously now so I chose to have the heater blow the warm (not even hot really) air over the pieces. It worked well and they epoxy is now cured enough to sand as I mentioned.
I will admit to a certain dissapointment though! The epoxy wasn't thickened enough and the joint wasn't tight enough at the bottom to contain it all. I will now have to mix up a batch and pour it into the chasm ( yes chasm) that is the joint on the underside of the deck. More on that later.

[Sailor]

I do like you're heater contraption though. I may very well have to borrow that idea. Next time. This whole boatbuilding thing is a learning process and I learn new things about how not to do things each time I make progress. Otherwise it wouldn't be progress would it. It'd just be a plateau, the same boring thing day in and day out. All day in the boatshop building perfect boat after perfect boat. Where's the fun in that I asks ya?
As to your scarphing idea for my deck to wale transition......

Are you suggesting instead of terminating the wales as they are normally done, ie, one on either side of the boat, I taper them to a feather at just the right length so that each "feather" edge wraps around to the other side of the boat making the scarph joint and the coaming one? Or are you suggesting I measure the inside edge of the boat and scarph my two pieces into one loop with the steamed part where the coaming will be? I'm not sure I follow your suggestion but you've certainly got my mind thinking about intriguing possibilities and new ways to do things. Not sure my craftsmanship is up to where it would need to be to do what I'm thinking but maybe you're not thinking what I'm thinking. Damn it man I read playboy for the pictures, I need Pictures Peter, Maybe you could get Simon to draw it out for me? Maybe.... If he's feeling giving at some point?

Fitz, I see the inwales in your beautiful craft have scuppers all the way forward. Obvisouly needed as they are actually ribs and it's sometimes good to see ribs up front. What are your thoughts on terminating the scuppers on a non ribbed boat all the way forward rather than before the decks begin. I don't imagine air circulation is much of an issue up there as there are no bulkheads or enclosed spaces. The matter is entirely and aesthetic one. I have yet to see a stripper showing artificial ribs up front like your "real" one does. I can't see any reason why it couldn't be done though. Ted Moores says to terminate the scuppers before the decks get there but by cutting more scupper holes all the way forward it first looks more like a "real" ribbed boat which is the effect we are after after all right? It also allows water to drain more readily when you flip the boat over to empty it and or put her away for the night/winter. It would also save weight. The extra nooks and crannies available for rot causing dirt is increased but really not much more than all the other scuppers cut in the rest of the inwale. Should I experiment with scuppers cut all the way forward or go with Ted's instructions and stop them before the deck? The only concern I can see is ensuring there are enough places where fastners can be driven. Am I wrong here? Is there something I'm not seeing?

[Fitz]

I don't know why you couldn't extend your scuppers alongside the deck. It would help with water removal in the ends, but that is less of an issue in a stripper canoe than a ribbed canoe. In a ribbed canoe, the water hangs out between ribs and the open gunwales assist in removing the water in the ends.

I am not sure how you want to secure your decks. In these wood canvas canoes, the deck is secured with screws through the inwale only. The outwale is screwed on separately and last.

[Sailor's Brother]

You are undoubtedly correct in surmising that heat still rises here in Nova Scotia. Has it started to fall elswhere? I haven't noticed. We are normally 10 years astern of most other things so it would not come as a surprise for this to have changed since I left the rest of the world for NS. My concern with the heater was at least twofold. First, the strongback is T shaped and the heat would have been passed around the sides missing the decks and scarphs completely. Second, you may not be able to tell clearly from the photo, but the cord goes up! Yes it defies gravity. I have these nifty little things on the roof trusses in my drydock where I can plug electrical appliances into them, RIGHT OVER MY WORKSPACE!. Every second rafter has one. In the odd ones between the sockets are located on the rafter angled about 40 degrees above my workbench. I'll try to remember to post a pic of the setup at some point. Back to my second point, the cord is just a bit short to reach the floor. I don't want to have it perched up on something precariously now so I chose to have the heater blow the warm (not even hot really) air over the pieces. It worked well and they epoxy is now cured enough to sand as I mentioned.
I will admit to a certain dissapointment though! The epoxy wasn't thickened enough and the joint wasn't tight enough at the bottom to contain it all. I will now have to mix up a batch and pour it into the chasm ( yes chasm) that is the joint on the underside of the deck. More on that later.

Sounds like you're workshop was wired by a true genius... what foresight, what ingenuity... what brilliance... you are one lucky person to have such a skilled electrician in your employ... I hope you recompensed him with unlimited rum and port.... (for life)

[Sailor's Brother]

I don't know why you couldn't extend your scuppers alongside the deck. It would help with water removal in the ends, but that is less of an issue in a stripper canoe than a ribbed canoe. In a ribbed canoe, the water hangs out between ribs and the open gunwales assist in removing the water in the ends.

I am not sure how you want to secure your decks. In these wood canvas canoes, the deck is secured with screws through the inwale only. The outwale is screwed on separately and last.

that's pretty much what's called for in the plans, and how the 2 previous canoes from that mould were done... long screws from outer hull through the inwale into the deck, then the outwale covering the row of screws... and of course pretty little plugs hiding those final screws.

[Sailor]

Exactly what I was going to do Andrew. Like I said in the earlier post though, if I have scupperd to the ends look I'll need to plan to have enough room to drive fastners in sufficient quantity through the hull, inwale and into the deck. I'm starting to think I might supper her to the ends... Just to be different. That's one of the things about building a boat yourself that appeals to me. You can change whatever you like and truly make it you're own.

[Sailor]

It's later. I managed to mix up a batch of thickened epoxy and fill the aforementioned chasm with the sticky gooey stuff. I hope to be able to lay them aside now until the time comes to fit them. The next step is to sand the interior of the hull. I really dread this task. Peter would be thrilled to get going on it but I am really not keen on sanding so much as Peter seems to be. Either way, it's not going to sand it's self so I guess I shall have to make a start on it at some point. The two pieces of plank that will one day become the inwales and outwales are now ready to be ripped in twain leaving me with all 4 pieces required. I'll let you know when I get around to that. My brother seems to advocate sanding and getting if done, I am leaning more towards ripping those pieces to make some apparent tangible progress. Maybe I'll do a bit of both tomorrow. For now, I'll leave you with that as my latest update.
The day was not a complete loss however as I managed to make a bit of progress on a model of Cutty Sark I have been working on for a while now. The little one and his mother are away for the day and will likely be away over night as it's now 2125 and I have not heard from them yet.
Later,
Daniel

[Popol]

Hello Sailor,

I have decided to build the Redbird. I am in the lofting phase and am afraid that something is wrong with the offsets.
I would love to annex a PDF (which is the print out based on Inkscape) with the plans I made for the Redbird. But it is too big (52k) and exceeds the forum limits (19k). If you can help me, than I will send the PDF over by e-mail.

Being a European, I first started by converting the offsets from inches to mm.
As I have access to a large scale printer, I decided to print all in one, so I lofted the right as well as the left side.

Next, I plotted the offsets in Inkscape (this is an open source program basis on Scalable Vector Graphics Editing) and had it automaticallt calculate the curves.

The calculations in excell are correct and are well transferred in Inkscape. The PDF print, produced by Inscape, results in a correct 1:1 scaling.

My first attempt was on an A2-format, have this print, glued it on a board, nailed every dot and than drew the curve with a plastic, bending ruler. That is where I noticed something was wrong. Later on I found out that designing the curves could be done by Inkscape as well ;-)

What I notice is that a lot of offsets are wrong. These are very often minimal corrections, but big enough to ask questions. Especially the Table of Heights of Station 0 are out of line. If I use the offsets out of the book, than I end up with a wave more than a beautiful curve.
Also the Profile of Station 1 is out of line. This is the same Profile as Station 0 and therefore should result in a kink on the Profile line.

Most of all, Waterline 8" at Station 6 is alarming. This is the same as the Sheer of Station 6.
If I consider the offsets of Stations 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 correctly, than they form a TULIP-shape at the Sheer. Based on the book, Station 6 would have a complete different form. In the drawing, I corrected WL 8" of Station 6 downward (thus I corrected the WL!) in order to obtain the same TULIP-shape.

I tried to find info about this on the Bearmountain's Builders Forum. Besides the fact that some builders reported they had to adapt their molds, I did not found any relative info.
Concerning the modification of Station 0 and Station 1, I believe I made the right decision by modifying them.
I am not so sure about the TULIP-shape of Stations 6, 7 and 8. Could you please help me out on this? You have the molds ready, so you could compare them with my print-out.
If my print-out is correct (or can be corrected easily), than I can continue straight away. If you tell me they are really out of line, then it might be better for me to order the plans at Bearmountain.
I prefer to start from the right basis before building.

Thank you in advance.
Best regards,
Paul

[Sailor]

Popol;
The molds I used were, as I mentioned made by my father about 15 or so years ago. Like you, he tried to loft from the table of offsets in the book and the problems were such that he ended up purchasing the plans. They were probably similar problems to the ones you are encountering. A friend of his who is an engineer used a CAD type program and between them they couldn't figure out where the problems were. Dad built using Ted's book and the plans from Bearmountain. I got my own book years later and it turns out that in the mean time, Steve Killing had updated the plans.(Killing refaired the hull in 1998 and in doing so, he added a little more stability according to the book.) If you are trying to compare your moulds to mine, I doubt they would match up. They'd certainly be very close though. As to the issues with the offsets not working out, it could be that there are errors inserted to prevent would be builders from building without purchasing the plans. I'm not sure about that though. I would recommend purchasing the plans from Bearmountain boats just to be certain you have the correct shape. As you say, it's best "to start from the right basis before building". The cost of the plans is so small when you view the project as a whole that, like a good insurance policy, it'll help you out in the long run even if you think you can do without.
I'm glad you chose the Redbird. She's a beautiful boat and I look forward to seeing your progress pics as well. I know you'll enjoy paddling her as I will enjoy paddling mine. Good luck on her and post lots of pics,
Daniel

Edited to add, PM me if you still want me to take a look at them, I'll send you my email address.

[Popol]

Hello Daniel,

I tried to contact Bearmountain, but they do not respond.
I would not go so far as assuming they inserted mistakes on purpose. I rather think that 2" between waterlines and butt-lines is too broad and that the mistakes are generated that way. Maybe I just try to be too correct on plotting the offsets.

Please send me an e-mail on PVL@telenet.be
I will be delighted to send you the plans I produced.

Thanks in advance,
Paul

[Sailor's Brother]

Popol;
The molds I used were, as I mentioned made by my father about 15 or so years ago. Like you, he tried to loft from the table of offsets in the book and the problems were such that he ended up purchasing the plans. They were probably similar problems to the ones you are encountering. A friend of his who is an engineer used a CAD type program and between them they couldn't figure out where the problems were. Dad built using Ted's book and the plans from Bearmountain. I got my own book years later and it turns out that in the mean time, Steve Killing had updated the plans.(Killing refaired the hull in 1998 and in doing so, he added a little more stability according to the book.) If you are trying to compare your moulds to mine, I doubt they would match up. They'd certainly be very close though. As to the issues with the offsets not working out, it could be that there are errors inserted to prevent would be builders from building without purchasing the plans. I'm not sure about that though. I would recommend purchasing the plans from Bearmountain boats just to be certain you have the correct shape. As you say, it's best "to start from the right basis before building". The cost of the plans is so small when you view the project as a whole that, like a good insurance policy, it'll help you out in the long run even if you think you can do without.
I'm glad you chose the Redbird. She's a beautiful boat and I look forward to seeing your progress pics as well. I know you'll enjoy paddling her as I will enjoy paddling mine. Good luck on her and post lots of pics,
Daniel

Edited to add, PM me if you still want me to take a look at them, I'll send you my email address.

I remember that quite well... there were many hours of head scratching over the table of offsets. as you have both books there Daniel, perhaps you could look to see if both tables of offsets agree with each other? that may be one place to start looking for errors... one would think that if they updated the plans a bit, large errors in the original plans would be evident by a comparison to the later sets???

As for (and this is to Popol) Bear Mountain not responding, I would be very patient with them.... they are not some huge multi-national conglomerate with technical help standing my the phone lines 24-7...

from their website...
"* We work from home. Since the boats we build are shipped across Canada and the mail orders go to all parts of the world, this is very convenient for us. We ask that you please make an appointment before dropping by. Space and time constraints make it difficult for us to visit in the workshop unless we know ahead of time. This also ensures that we will in fact be here to meet you."

could be that he's away for Christmas holidays... or just getting in one last trip in Algonquin park before the ice shows up!!!

but ultimately, I think Daniel (aka Sailor) has it right... the plans are pretty cheap, the same price as a couple of decent chisels to fair your centreline


Cheers

Sailor's Brother

[Popol]

Hey Sailor's brother,

It's not about the money, it's about the fact of building a boat from scratch. This means: starting with the offsets, plotting them and going for it. As you state, it might be very well that they are off on a trip and I'll get the answers I am looking for.
I have also bought the book 'Building a strip canoe' from Gil Gilpatrick and to be honest, Ted Moores CanoeCraft is more detailled and really gives you the knowledge needed to build your own canoe. So, I really trust these guys.

It's all about making a project you can be proud off and which survives you.

Best regards,
Paul

[Sailor's Brother]

Hey Sailor's brother,

It's not about the money, it's about the fact of building a boat from scratch. This means: starting with the offsets, plotting them and going for it. As you state, it might be very well that they are off on a trip and I'll get the answers I am looking for.
I have also bought the book 'Building a strip canoe' from Gil Gilpatrick and to be honest, Ted Moores CanoeCraft is more detailled and really gives you the knowledge needed to build your own canoe. So, I really trust these guys.

It's all about making a project you can be proud off and which survives you.

Best regards,
Paul

In that case... get the full size plans, THEN trace them over your lines... you'll see if you're off and if you are, which exact numbers are off in the tables... you'll still able to say you did it from scratch, and be able to help future builders with the correct offsets... I wouldn't mind myself having the "right" offsets for my book! (hint hint.. if you do find the errors...)

My 2 year old has already laid claim to the my Redbird :-) course his little brother/sister (time will tell) may have something to say about that... but then this addiction has already ensured that they too will have a boat.. this time a sailboat...



Andrew

[Popol]

@Daniel: I guess that for the planking I will need 6 boards of Western Red Cedar, kiln-dried.
In English measures: 1" / 6" / 18' 7 1/2"
Or in metric measures (cm): 2,54 / 15,24 / 567,69

Is this correct? In CanoeCraft they talk about 50 to 60 board feet of 1" softwood, 12" longer than canoe. I don't have the slightest clue what they mean with that. It's not easy to understand all those English measurements :-(

@Andrew: good idea to get the full size plans. I e-mailed what I made already to your big brother. Do you plan to write a book yourself?

[Sailor]

When you get your planking materials make sure they're actually an inch. Nominal isn't good enough. It will work but you'll have thinner strips and therefore you'll need more of them. It might make for an iteresting artistic design thing to go with narrower strips. I got my planks in 20 foot lenghts because that's what they came in. I think I purchased 3 boards 20 feet long, 6 inches wide and 1 inch thick. I had some leftover planking from Andrew's canoe and my dad's canoe. Each had purchased the kit and it came with extra planking. I used that plus my three boards and had enough. I'd get 4 or 5 boards. 6 might be a bit much but it's better to have too much rather than not enough. You'll want to lay out the boards so you can plan them colour wise before you start planking the hull. They need to be matched port and starboard side for colour. Unless you get all planks the same colour then it won't matter. At the store, I went looking for pieces that were as knot free as possible, and I made sure to have one plank that was as white as possible and a plank that was as dark as possible. The other plank I just went for something different. I ended up with a white one, a brown one and a reddish one. Almost pink really. The leftovers from the other canoes (Dad's and Andrews) turned out to be more reddish and mine was more pinkish. Softwood... I'd just go with WRC. (Western Red Cedar). You could use pretty much anything to plank the canoe with because it's encapsulated in fibreglass so won't (shouldn't) rot. The concern would be weight. Plank her in mahogany and she'd be beautiful. She'd also weigh a ton. There's a reason why WRC is used. Maybe an accent strip of walnut or mahogany or something but I stuck with WRC for all planking, I just used different coloured boards. A lighteweight softwood like cedar is what you're after. Look around and see what's there where you live and use the closest thing you have to WRC. If you can get WRC, I'd use that. Don't worry about kiln dried or not. Odds are it's been sitting long enough that it's pretty much dried by the time you get it. It's only an inch thick. Once you rip it into strips they're even thinner and will dry out in no time on they're own. I'd give them a week or two to acclimatize themselves to the ambient humidity in your shop and then start planking. They'll be bone dry by the time you get to glassing. Even if they aren't, the inside will continue to acclimatize and it'll be dried right through by the time you get around to installing the inner glass. If you're going to use the stapleless method, it's a certainty that it will be dry, it takes much longer to plank that way. I grew up learning metric but you'll never convince me that a boat can measure 7 m long. She's a 21 footer and will be till the day I die

[Sailor]

Now why does this thread lock on me? Sorry about that. I didn't do it on purpose. All comments are still welcomed.

[Popol]

Dear all,

See below the response I received from Ted Moore.

On 16/12/2010 17:09, Ted Moores wrote:
> Good morning, Paul
>
> You certainly have used a lot of technology to loft the Redbird - nice bunch of tools to play with.
>
> The purpose of lofting is to develop the mould shape and find any numbers that might be off. This is why it is important to loft all three views as the lines in one view are meant to prove the lines in the other views. Traditionally this was very important as the table of offsets was taken from a half model or a scale drawing - at full size there would be a lot of head scratching to decide which line to go with. Fortunately, the Red Bird lines have been faired by a yacht designer and the offsets produced by his design program -[FastShip]. This would suggest that the numbers produced should be accurate. That said, there is the problem of the computer trying to produce a 'fair line' mathematically when it is more a curve that feels right.
>
> Personally, I don't think you need to purchase plans - shipping to Europe is pricey. Our plans are produced from the same digital file that the offsets were generated from and they have worked for others. A lot of the challenge and pleasure of building a canoe is to play with the tools that we have at our disposal. You should be able to get away with lofting just the half breadths [or mould shape] as we are assuming the the numbers are correct. The variables I see are converting the numbers given to metric and entering so many numbers - if there is a problem here it should be obvious as the line will not look fair. There is bound to be places where you will have to nudge to line to make it look right. If you were drawing this with ruler, pencil and batten, these little adjustments would never become visible as the width of the pencil line and the wooden batten would absorb the little glitches. Your big problem is that you are working to 6 decimal points so everything is magnified. Keep in mind that you will be transferring the lines to plywood then cutting them out by eye [unless you know someone with a CNC router] so there are a few variables that will bring your numbers back to a boat-builders standard of perfection.
>
> Good luck with it,
>
> Ted Moores

[Sailor]

I hadn't thought of the 6 decimal point accuracy your computer is working to versus the thickness of the pencil, sawblade etc that you will have to work with in reality. That's an excellent point. My comment in my email about having to loft all 3 views to be able to properly fair are upheld here. I think if you simply fair them visually, the boat should turn out to be as designed. That is afterall what the designer did.

[Sailor]

So, to get back to posting some pics for Tenner, he likes them you know, I will start off where I last left off. The decks. Here's the aforementioned "chasm" that I had to fill with goo.


These pics are a bit out of sequence because I didn't have a picture of the decks so I took one a minute ago. The other pics are from days past when I was actually out working in the shop. It's been a few days since I've been able to get anything done. Work seems to be taking more time now. Gotta learn dem submarines ya know!

Next we move on to the sanding.

Peter likes to sand. I don't! Here's my sanding block. It's curved so it will take the shape of the canoe and by changeing the angle I use it at, I can adjust how much curve I'm presenting to the hull. Works pretty well.
Here's me using above sanding block:

OK OK OK, I'm full of $%!^! I did sand a bit but it's not done on the inside. I couldn't resist making some "real" headway. Next up was the inwales and outwales needed to be ripped. Here's my bandsaw in action. OK once again, full of it, it's actually not in action, I shut it down to take the picture. That's my son Gabriel in the background helping daddy in the drydock. If he's helping and big tools are running, he has a helmet that he wears and goggles. In fact he reminds me to wear my goggles if I forget. Safety first! You can just make out the shopvac near Gabriel. It's hooked up to the saw and does an adequate job of removing sawdust. I still vacuum down the saw after using it though. Just to get the last little bits of sawdust out of the nooks and crannies. You can see the blade taking a cut and removing the line perfectly centered. It went smoothly down the line like that for the whole 22 feet of both boards, honest!


Here's the cut after coming off the saw. You can see the holes where the nails were. I didn't quite bisect them perfectly but the bit that's left there won't be seen once I smooth the wales down and shape them.



Here's another shot of the scarphs showing the nail holes a bit:


I am happy with the results so far. Not bad for my first scarph and it wasn't made with a router and jig or anything. Hand tools, (ok I used a sander a little bit but once I realized that it doesn't work well, I went back to my broken glass scraper to finish the job.
And that's where she stands at this point. I did spend a bit of time in the drydock working on the back wall. It's nearing completion. I need to install the tracks and hang the barn door, Build the window trim around the 4 last windows (there are 5 total), then I can finish sheathing the cedar shakes. Once that's done then there's just the gravel backfill, topsoil, a small hole to patch in the roof, roots to uproot to make room for the garden a garden to turn over /rototill....... Then I'm done. Oh yeah, my house needs a new roof. Anybody want to come help me put on a new shingle roof?

[P.L.Lenihan]

That is a neat idea for the hand sander Sailor! Is the bottle kept full or empty? Since you have a nice well lit interior shop, perhaps you can do the grounds and house work during daylight hours and only work on the boat after supper when it is too dark outside for other jobs. No point in looking for excuses not to work on the boat.......just trying to be helpful!



Cheers!


Peter

[Sailor's Brother]

That is a neat idea for the hand sander Sailor! Is the bottle kept full or empty? Since you have a nice well lit interior shop, perhaps you can do the grounds and house work during daylight hours and only work on the boat after supper when it is too dark outside for other jobs. No point in looking for excuses not to work on the boat.......just trying to be helpful!



Cheers!


Peter

grounds work??? what's that??? is there work outside the boat(s) ???? currently I'm working on 3 different boats...... well 2 boats, one ship... but to add groundwork... well that would just seem... well

Like work!!!

Andrew

[Popol]

Andrew, there seems to be some misunderstandings about the difference between a boat and a ship. What is your vision?

[Sailor's Brother]

Andrew, there seems to be some misunderstandings about the difference between a boat and a ship. What is your vision?

there is and never has been a misunderstanding... :-)

The traditional, and accepted differentiation is that any vessel who's primary means of propulsion occurs on the water... and can be put onto or into a ship is a boat... all others are ships.

With Dockwise transport coming onto the market in relatively recent years... (The company with those huge ships capable of carrying what we would have formerly call ships up to 120+ meters in lenght). Many "ship" owners and operators (the Navy included) are reluctant to accept that they have only a fraction of the ships they used to have, and continue to refer to them (incorrectly I might add) as ships... (I of course usually call it a boat, which irritates my XO to no end!!!)

These operators/owners refuse to look at the bright side and see that they have MANY more boats than before... and of course boats are cheaper to operate than ships right, so they should be making huge cost saving??? (Ok that last part's a joke...)

so to sum up... if it's larger than 120 or so meters, and more than say 15 thousand deadweight tons... then it's probably a ship... all others are boats!!!! but of course this definition will change as Dockwise get's bigger ships!!!