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Thread: Am I wrecking a good hull?

  1. #1
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    Default Am I wrecking a good hull?

    I have stored my H28 in my shed on the Gold Coast, patiently awaiting her rebuild, while I'm working 3500km away in Darwin. I've jut been home for my first visit in 8 weeks and am now starting to worry about the state of the hull.

    It is strip planked in Huon pine and resorcinol glued.

    I have posted here before about the deadwood drying out and cracking badly and I am monitoring that closely (it is getting worse) but I am now more worried about some of the glued strips starting to split.


    Port side, stern below water line



    Starboard amidships below water line


    Port side below water line.


    There is not a lot that I can do about stopping the drying out while I'm working up here in Darwin with just a weekend here and there at home and I expect it to get worse before I can start working on the rebuild.

    I'm hoping someone might be able to tell me if I'm completely stuffing this hull by leaving it sitting there or if it will be reasonably easily repairable (without having to glass over it which has been suggested as being regular with a strip planked hull. Huon pine isn't the sort of hull material you'd really want to glass over in your right mind)

    Without knowing any better I'm thinking the options might end up being:

    - Rout out the split glued lines with a fine router blade and glue in splines with resourcinol from the outside (the splits pass behind ribs).

    - clean out the splits with a fine blade and fill with resourcinol or epoxy.

    Any thoughts or ideas?

    Also here is a shot of the splits/shakes in the keel timber which is worse than when last reported but I believe more easily repairable down the track a bit.

    (The blocking under the keel is all OK)



    If glassing the hull is ultimately the solution I wouldn't exclude that option but obviously it is absolutely the very last thing I'd want to do to this hull!!

    thanks for any ideas, opinions etc
    Greg
    Larks

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Slop some linseed oil around on the inside.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Larks.
    I admire your efforts to restore an old boat and am only passingly familiar with this type of strip planking, but the ones that I have worked on are also edge fastened, so your 'routing out of the seems' idea my run into some snags, or fastenings to be more correct.
    Do the indicated openings go all the way through? Are they at the seems (hard to see for sure from the pictures) ? Can you asses the presence and/or condition of the edge fastenings? Maybe with a thin blade.
    It does seem odd that the glue is so uniformly separating at all, or most ,of the seams! And the gap at the keel seems more like separation than shrinkage!
    There should also be some mechanical fastening there I would think. Is there any way to determine their condition and/or type? Any information about plans or builder available?
    One approach may be to verify that all fastenings are in good shape and launch to let things swell up before trying to glass the outside.
    I know I have not answered any of your questions and raised more that you have probably already thought of, just giving my impressions. I sure hope this project works out for you, it seems a worthy one.

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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    I think you are quite right Jackster, I hadn't thought of it but the survey did say the planks are edge fastened (though I don't know how the surveyor established that - I assume because that is how they must have ben built in Tasmania in 1964).

    The separation so far is only at a few of the glued seams (those with the arrows in the pics) and one does show daylight through, the others all still appeared quite sound.

    I don't have my drawings back up here in Darwin with me but the keel timber behind the external lead ballast certainly appeared to be one piece that is cracking along the length with daylight the other side in the first 100mm or so behind the lead. In an earlier post on this split Jay Greer didn't seem to think it would be too much to worry about and if it does split all the way along I don't think it would be too much of a drama to either reattach it or clean up the face and add a new piece.
    Last edited by Larks; 07-07-2008 at 05:45 AM. Reason: spell
    Larks

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    As another Ozzie I would'nt worry too much about the seams opening up. I have a wooden Vertue down in Melbourne and have brought her out for re-work over winter and the seams have opened up alarmingy. I just caulked them with linseed putty, put the boat in the water, some major flooding, but the seams closed up eventually. The putty oozes out, sand it back and eveything is fine. However, make sure the timbers on the exterior are painted with at least some primer.

    At least you have a shed for your boat - mine was out in the open for 6+ months.

    http://users.bigpond.com/apindrans/cv_web

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Well, I know what I would do.
    Simply clean it up, strip off the paint inside and outside
    Flush it all out with water
    Let it dry thoroughly
    Coat it inside and out with sanitred permaflex
    This is a flexible waterproof adhesive sealer

    It will stretch like rubber and will soak into all the crevices locking all the wood and frames together in a polyurethane rubber matrix.
    No worms will ever be able to eat this either!
    Since the wood can not get any air or water it wont rot.
    And it wont fall apart ever due to fastener corrosion.

    The marina manager is sold on the stuff where I did my boat.
    A boat neighbor decided to fiberglass his and it split the glass due to water sitting on the inside of the hull.

    The only concern I would have with this is the price 400 dollars for 5 gallon buckets
    Probably need 4 to 5, 5 gallon buckets.
    And perhaps getting the interior clean enough for a good solid base.

    BUT, it will make the hull very strong if thick enough coating is used. At least a 1/8 to 1/4 inch coating on the outside will give this hull a lot of strength.
    And I am sure some people wont like it, but it worked out just fine for me.
    Last edited by sdowney717; 07-07-2008 at 04:32 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Aindrans, very nice job on CV mate and great polosophy on getting her sailing first. As far as puttying the open seams on the H28 and leaving them to take up when she's relaunched do you think it makes any difference that this is a glued strip plank hull rather than a traditionally planked and caulked hull?

    It certainly seems like the easiest and most practical solution but should I be worried about the integrity of the planking if some of the glue is failing?

    Sdowney, the permaflex sounds like an interesting option, particulary for older rot prone hulls, but to be honest it would be quite a way down the list of choices a the moment (similar to glassing the hull that a boat builder mate who works mainly with glass has already suggested).

    Huon pine is such an ideal hull material in its rot resistance that I am extremely loath to sheath it in anything and other than the splits and shakes shown it is in great condition (so far anyway- that's why I'm wondering if I'm slowly riuining it in the shed).

    thanks
    Greg
    Larks

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Larks,
    I am inclined to agree about the permaflex, interesting, but to encapsulate the hull seems a logistical puzzle.
    And I too think a good soaking may well be the cure, given that all fastenings are sound ( a big IF for a 40+ year old classic ).
    Your concerns seem to be well founded, I can only suggest what you no doubt have already though of;
    Keeping the hull damp- soaker hose/ bilge pump combo?
    Generous friends to spray down regularly?
    Lawn sprinkler on a timer?
    Probably not much help but my intent is pure.
    Luck!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    I can understand your frustration. Believe it or not, the boat will swell up when launched again. However, it is possible to slow down the drying out and checking of the bottom planks and keel by stapleing on burlap sacking and attaching a garden soaker hose at the water line. This will keep the planking damp and prevent further checking. Any checks at time to launch should be filled with soft oil based underwater compound and not synthetic rubber compound.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Thanks Jay, Jackster, I am reassured. First job on my next visit home (after kissing the wife and patting the dog of course) will be to do as suggested and get some moisture back into the timber. Although it hasn't come completely adrift or split right through other than the forward 100mm, I'd like to screw that piece of keel with the long split back up to where it is drifting from when I putty and paint it, do you think that would be suitable for piece of mind?

    many thanks yet again for the good advice

    Greg
    Last edited by Larks; 07-07-2008 at 07:06 PM. Reason: spell
    Larks

    "Be who you are and say what you feel...
    Because those that matter...don't mind...
    And those that mind.... don't matter."

    LPBC Beneficiary
    We're the only species on earth that claims to have a god...and the only species on earth that lives as if we don't have a god.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Greg, I can't speak to the keel issue, but I can add some thoughts on the planking. My hull is strip plank, cedar on oak frames, edge glued and nailed, with no fibreglass or epoxy sheathing - she's had 45 years of annual winter haul-put and is still sound and healthy. The cracks you are seeing look like typical random glue-line failure - I see a few every year. Believe it or not, they will take right up and stay tight - so long as you don't put anything in them when they are this dry - and I mean ANYTHING - no putty, no sealer, no goop, no caulking, no miracle stuff, no paint ... nothing! Leave them just as they are for at least the first season on the water. Do your clean-up, paint, other repairs etc, then get the boat into the water. They will leak, but not for long. You'll have some fairly scary drama for the first few hours, but by the next day they'll be down to weeping and in a week they'll be tight. I'm assuming that the planks and fastenings are sound - no rot or rust - and that there is nothing but original glue in the seams now.

    There are good techniques for repairing them - I've done a lot of that - but I wouldn't recommend doing any repairs to the seams before you get her wet again. A bit of water in the bilge won't hurt anything, but doing the wrong sort of repairs can.

    There have been some good threads on this subject, so do some searching. Good luck!

    - Norm

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Hey Greg,

    I have my 42' ex trawler sitting in my backyard at the moment. She came out in May this year. As soon as it came out of the water we blasted her down and put a good thick coat of sealer/primer from the waterline down. I have been mixing up a salty brine and spraying this on the inside once a fortnight and she has stayed fairly tight. Just a few dodgy planks that required replacing anyway have opened up. I have also layed old woolen blankets inside to help stop evaporation. It is a carvel hull with white beech planks. The stacked keel means she is very shallow draft so I don't have to put much water in to keep most of below the waterline wet. I suspect your keel is splitting as it does not seem to have any primer on the timber, therefore not protecting the timber from drying out. Out of interest, is the keel only split where the paint is missing? I have arranged a skirt around mine to shade the planking and it seems to be working well, but as yours is in a shed, this is irrelevant. I can only offer my experience so far in similar weather conditions.
    Being a naturally greasy timber, glassing or coating in some permanant type material is probably not your best option as you have already expressed.

    Good Luck,
    Salty

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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Thanks Norm, that's great news and advice and very reassuring. I'll eventually be stripping the hull paint completely before repainting but I plan to leave that stripping until the very last thing after the interior and topsides are rebuilt. Hopefully the job I do with the burlap/hessian on thenext trip home might close up the splits in the planking enough to keep any new paint out when I do get to that.

    I think the puttying that Jay referred to was for the keel timber checks as he advised in a previous post.

    I will do some searching as suggested also as I am interested in how you do repair this sort of planking (if needed).

    many thanks again
    Greg
    Larks

    "Be who you are and say what you feel...
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    And those that mind.... don't matter."

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Thanks Salted one, sorry I was typing while you're post came through. There are a few other small splits where the paint has come adrift and the keel/hull seam that was payed with what looks like oakum caulking is opening up slightly as well. I'm feeling pretty confident now though that I can set up a pump to recycle some moisture over the timber on a timer, either a brine mixture as you suggest or ethyl glycol mixture.

    cheers
    Greg
    Larks

    "Be who you are and say what you feel...
    Because those that matter...don't mind...
    And those that mind.... don't matter."

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    We're the only species on earth that claims to have a god...and the only species on earth that lives as if we don't have a god.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Being thousands of K's away from a wood boat is never good. I think the answer is yes, you are damaging this boat. Leaving her out of the water for an extended period can only be bad. Glued seams will open up, and will be difficult/impossible to fix effectively. Don't put anything in the seams while she's dry-that will just create worse problems when she does go back into the water. Can you seriously keep her wet out of the water/ Does BNE still have water restrictions? Really hard at the best of times to keep something like this really working, usually need to visit at least every few days to check that all is well with pumps and sprinklers etc.
    Sorry mate, its all bad as far as I can see. I hate to see good boats die this way. Could you maybe sell or give her to someone with the time to keep her going?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Hi Py, couldn't you think of something negative to say mate? When do you want to pick her up?

    Actually I reckon I can do as the guys suggest and set up a system that will cope well enough while I'm away and I have a particularly clever wife who can keep an eye on it for me and splash a bit of water about if the system fails. We are on rain water where we are and I have a polycon (big square plastic container that holds a cubic metre of liquid) that I can set up to top up whatever reservoir system I devise and I have a few 12v pumps about to pick from that I can press into service.

    Now that 'm a bit more settled into the job up here I expect to be able to get home a bit more often as well (rather than the recent 8 week stint) and it isn't a long term contract so I'm sorry mate but I shall persist with this one and I promise not to let her die. Worse case? I'll have some nice huon pine for sale.
    Last edited by Larks; 07-07-2008 at 10:46 PM. Reason: spell
    Larks

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    And those that mind.... don't matter."

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    I don't think spraying sweet water is a good idea. A splash with salt water might be better.
    Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Thanks Ian, I'll make up a reservoir inside the hull of either a brine mixture or ethyl glycol mixture (or a concoction of both??).
    cheers
    Greg
    Larks

    "Be who you are and say what you feel...
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    And those that mind.... don't matter."

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    It will definitely swell up again.
    It may also be a leaker even after it swells up again.
    If the boat hull has thoroughly dried, It cant get any worse than it already is.Worst thing would be to let it moisture cycle.
    Wood takes a compression set when soaked, the water swells the wood, the wood gets pressed and then when it dries out, the edges were crushed so it tends to open up seams.But these strips were likely nailed and glued so not really a worry. Wonder if they were steel or bronze nails.
    One benefit of EG is it dries very slowly and therefore the planks will swell up and stay together longer than if just salt water is used. And it wont corrode the fasteners.
    Perhaps a sprinkler set up in the boat running for a few days with an EG mix constantly recirculating to swell it up before you put it in.

    Let the hull swell up and then work on the keel caulking to close up those gaps.

    Permaflex works well, but you need a reasonably sound clean surface for it to stick. It does stick just fine to latex based paints.
    I had a plastic container with a layer of dried latex paint inside. I used this to mix up a batch of permaflex. After it dried, I pulled it out and the bucket came totally clean, the permaflex was extremely well stuck to the paint. But, bare wood is best to let it soak into the fibers. You cannot expect permaflex to stick to a surface that is oily, oil impregnated, loose dirt etc... and it wont stick to polyethylene plastic. so whatever you paint it on, make sure it has a well adhered solid base surface. In truth you must wash it off with dish soap between coats as a layer of oil forms on the surface during a cure.
    It will work with cloth and will soak thru to the surface underneath. But dont try this thicker than about 1/8 inch. ( it might take a long time to cure threw if it is too thick) But for a thick coating they sell LRB which cures to any thickness. I have thought perhaps the ultimate hull surface on a worn out hull would be using a stretchy dynell fabric with permaflex.
    The company recommendation for boat hulls is coat with permaflex then layer in LRB with a notched trowel the depth you wish. Then fill with a smooth trowel. Then top coat with permaflex. You can not rip apart this stuff if it is thicker than 1/8 inch. It would be like ripping apart a tire on your car, it is very similar when cured to a tire in strength.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Good advice Greg , it's been very low humidity up here over winter .
    Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may exist, but you have ceased to live.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Have you thought about wedging the seams? Open them from the outside with a circular saw (blade tips ground to a point) and gluing in 10 degree wooden wedges? Once it's back in the water it'll swell tighter than a .... Only you'll have to keep it afloat thereafter; except for the occational haul out

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Am I wrecking a good hull?

    Thanks Dennis, I had thought of splining them, similar to what you suggest, but as Jackster pointed out the strip planking is edge fastened so I'd most likely encounter problems trying to saw along the seems. For the moment I'll do the resoak thing and see how well she takes up when back in the water. If I do find I have real problems down the track with persistent leaks I'll probably revisit the options of splining (or your wedging idea) as a preference over sheathing.
    many thanks
    Greg
    Larks

    "Be who you are and say what you feel...
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    And those that mind.... don't matter."

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