Chinese okoume OK?

[grafxman]

I just discovered the 6mm Marine Grade Okoume Plywood TO BS1088 I purchased from Noahs Marine is made in China. Is this stuff the real deal or is it counterfeit? Does anyone have any experience with it?

[J. Dillon]

You know , I looked at that stuff at HD when I started building my pirogue. I even bought two sheets. Then I came to my senses . I took it back and bought Dug fir marine ply with all the proper labels. I didn't regret it.

Maybe it is great stuff but let someone else prove it for you.

JD

[BrianM]

You know , I looked at that stuff at HD when I started building my pirogue. I even bought two sheets. Then I came to my senses . I took it back and bought Dug fir marine ply with all the proper labels. I didn't regret it.

Maybe it is great stuff but let someone else prove it for you.

JD

It was good instincts that compelled you to bring it back. I've boiled the HD stuff and it failed after 45minutes.

[grafxman]

It was good instincts that compelled you to bring it back. I've boiled the HD stuff and it failed after 45minutes.

So are you saying that the stuff I bought will fail after 45 minutes of boiling? Noah's web page claims waterproof and boil proof glue. In fact here's a copy of their info:

"A/B Okoume(gabon) face & core veneers. 1.3 mm face veneers (before sanding.) Equal or nearly equal laminations. WBP Gluelines. Light weight, excellent bending and finishing characteristics. Ideal for tortured ply & lap strake construction."

As I stated, it's marked BS1088. BTW, what's this HD stuff you are referring to? I'm asking about Chinese made Marine Grade Okoume TO BS 1088 ply.

[Dave Gray]

HD refers to Home Depot. BS1088 is a retired standard although many will claim they meet it. If you search (I know, the search function sucks) the better okoume plywood seems to come from Joubert (sp?) and another supplier, the name of whom escapes me.

In a nutshell, claiming to meet BS1088 is meaningless for the most part unless you know the supplier's reputation.

[grafxman]

HD refers to Home Depot. BS1088 is a retired standard although many will claim they meet it. If you search (I know, the search function sucks) the better okoume plywood seems to come from Joubert (sp?) and another supplier, the name of whom escapes me.

In a nutshell, claiming to meet BS1088 is meaningless for the most part unless you know the supplier's reputation.

Which brings me back to my original question, is Chinese Okoume OK? It was purchased from Noahs Marine in Canada which, so far as I know, has an excellent rep. I seek enlightenment please.

[Bill Perkins]

I recently bought some 4mm Chinese occume , though I didn't know it was Chinese when I ordered . It's stamped BS1088 Marine ,but I guess anyone can put that on now ? I haven't boiled it ,yet , but I don't like the fact that it has very thin surface plys and a single thick core . I'm looking for fairly uniform plys . Spec'ing the surface veneer thickness "before sanding" seems odd . Maybe mine were a decent thickness before final surfacing?

[Dave Gray]

Which brings me back to my original question, is Chinese Okoume OK? It was purchased from Noahs Marine in Canada which, so far as I know, has an excellent rep. I seek enlightenment please.

That question is best addressed to Noah's. Anything I would say would be speculation.

[grafxman]

I recently bought some 4mm Chinese occume , though I didn't know it was Chinese when I ordered . It's stamped BS1088 Marine ,but I guess anyone can put that on now ? I haven't boiled it ,yet , but I don't like the fact that it has very thin surface plys and a single thick core . I'm looking for fairly uniform plys . Spec'ing the surface veneer thickness "before sanding" seems odd . Maybe mine were a decent thickness before final surfacing?

According to the BS 1088 spec at wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1088, BS 1088's face veneer should 1.3 mm for multi-ply. 4mm ply and thinner is to have 3 layers. The 6mm I bought has 5 plies as per the standard.

[Terrence Gilhuly]

The last marine ply I purchased from Noah's was Brazilian I believe.(7 ply)
I have purchased 5 ply from them in the past as well. Not sure of the country of origin. Both were quite fine to work with and have performed well.
I do know that they are very good to deal with and if you have not cut your sheets they most likely will let you exchange it. Ask for their advice.
If you are in the Toronto area Oliver Lumber is also an excellent company to deal with.

[calvin]

I recently purchased 9mm ribbon stripped sepele from harbor sales the face verneer was paper thin maybe .6mm? from shellman in greece reads the label.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

The quaity of good that Chinese firms put out has risen dramatically. By all accounts the management at these firms typically overwhelm business people going over to do business there withtheir eagerness to answer all questions and meet expectations.

Most everything we buy is made in China. And generally we are happy with these Chinese products.

There have also been stunning ethical failures and cost cutting with disastrous effects.

Chinese pet food that killed pets becuase the maker decided to ad melamine to give higher protein counts at lower costs.

Lead in many of the plastic products out of China.

Seafood grown in grossly contaminated waters coming into oour food supply.

I don't buy any food products that I know come from China.

Considering the consequences of failure of plywood I personally would not buy BS 1088 marine ply made in China. It may indeed be excellent stock. It may indeed becoime the only source of marine ply in the future. Untill I no longer have a choice, I will not knowingly use ply made in China to build a boat.

The whole China Inc phenomena is likely going to undergo significant changes.

Growth of 25% a year eventually brings significant inflation which brings significant wage growth which decreases a major cosat benefit.

Shipping costs form China are currently making several companies rethink Chinese production value. If the cost benefit narrows, and public perception suffers and it takes longer to source from China, why buy form China?

Without question China will continue to be a major player, however I think US manufacturing will clearly recover from the losses brought about form Most Favored Nation treaty status bestowed druing the Clinton Administration.

Very likely we will see more products made in the US in the next 10-20 yrs.

[Quilbilly]

I bought a bunch of 6 mm marine okoume from Edensaw last fall for my school's boat building class. I forget the number but it was a marine grade. The kids had scarfed a bunch of it and one of them asked me about a little delamination he noticed. I picked at it and the whole thing came apart. We investigated several sheets and everyone was the same. You could rip a two inch piece and when you bent it over your knee it would explode, completely delaminating. Edensaw obviously was hearing from a lot of people as they didn't even want it returned to get credit. So we ended up buying the French stuff for nearly double the price, but it was worth it. So no, I wouldn't buy structural plywood from China at least not for ten years or so until they actually have some oversight standards other than printing the appropriate number on their product.- Todd

[dmg]

I have ordered 3 batches of 1088 in the past 2 years. The first and last batches were Joubert', and were quite nice for grain, color, and consistant core veneers. The 2nd batch was Chinese. The grain and color were awful, cuts made through the mid-section of SOME of the panels revealed inconsistant glue application.

Maybe the color and grain aren't always critical, but a lot of this ply gets finished bright.

Sort of related, as these 1088's may come from a common Chinese plant, I've had numerous problems with supposed cabinet grade birch, maple, and oak plywoods ( Chinese ). Large amounts of delamination, sporadic thickness tolerances, and many panels delivered to me that were so warped and distorted, that I couldn't even attempt to make any cuts.

They now refer to this crap as imported paint grade plywood.

One additional concern, on my own behalf, is whatever the junk is that they used for glues ( on some of the batches mentioned), I am alergic to it, and breakout in hives withing 15-20 min. of exposure to the dust. Seems like the stuff that does it is RED colored glue.

Dave

P.S. - I never specifically order this stuff. Many suppliers simply substitute the cheap stuff for the domestic brands that I was used to ( oddly enough, most do not offer a discouted price to match).

[NYCKiwi]

I was told at the Woodenboat Show today that the Chinese do not kiln dry their veneers before gluing them. Consequently, the plywood has the tendency to de-laminate and warp due to the extra moisture content in the wood.

I've also heard speculation that any wood boring beetles present in the tree could remain in the plywood, simply because they have not been killed by the kiln drying process.

[bloggs68]

I think that it really depends on the supplier. I used some French BS1088 ply in a small boat and had no end of trouble with it fracturing. I have used Israeli ply, again Okume BS1088 and it has been good. Last year I tried some 1/2" Chinese BS1088 and could not fault it - in fact, it was better than most of the Okume/Gaboon I had used previously. The face veneers complied with the standard, there were no voids in the material and the core veneers were great - basically it was some of the best okume BS1088 I had seen.

The best advice is even thought he BS1088 standard has been abused by many suppliers, look it up on the net and when you go to purchase the ply, make sure the supplier knows that you will reject the ply of it does not comply. Most good suppliers would have rejected any bad stock anyway. We are lucky in Australia that we have a standard of locally produced ply that is much better than BS1088. Maybe we should export it to you guys???

regards,

AD

[Tom Lathrop]

Sort of related, as these 1088's may come from a common Chinese plant, I've had numerous problems with supposed cabinet grade birch, maple, and oak plywoods ( Chinese ). Large amounts of delamination, sporadic thickness tolerances, and many panels delivered to me that were so warped and distorted, that I couldn't even attempt to make any cuts.

I got surprised with some of this birch ply too. 11 plys in the 3/4" stuff and some of it warped badly. I'm still trying to figure out how you could get 11 plies to warp in the first place. Moisture content could be the culprit but you'd think it should cancel out in the cross plies. The job was for furniture for a kids activity center and was done for free but I would not use any of this again, even if it was free. A friend used some of the higher grade of the same material (almost double the price) for church bookcases and had the same problem.

When I visited the local veneer plant, I saw that they sold the scrap veneers in big pallets to a Chinese buyer. They use cheap labor to piece it into plywood and ship it back to be sold cheaper than we can make it. I'm sure that I'm an economics dolt but I don't see how that can work to anyone's advantage.

Almost all the workers in that veneer plant were Latinos so the labor costs could not have been very high.

[grafxman]

This may be of interest to some folks here:

http://duckworksmagazine.com/08/howto/plytest/index.htm

Roger

[John Meachen]

Nobody so far has used Pete Culler's quote,so I will "If you are going to boil your boat,don't use it.".The 1088 can only refer to the quality of the bonding as the wood species does not meet the durability requirement of the specification.I suspect that if you maintain a sound coat of paint you are likely to get several years of enjoyment from your project.If you cherish the notion of building a boat for your great grandchildren to use you may be disappointed.

[Upnorth1]

Today's article at Duckworks regarding Noah's plywood ...
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/...test/index.htm

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

It should be remembered that BS1088 is/was an established standard that has a number of requirements. I haven't checked lately but the text of the standard was retrievable from the web. If the ply claims BS1088 quality and you can show the retailer that what he sells is deficient in any catagory you should get your money back.
The trick is to know the rules so you can be specific when you bitch.
If I an uncertain I boil a piece.
3 veneer ply up to 9mm can be backlighted to check for voids. Spot voids have to be bigger than a 10¢to be visible
Veneers should be about equal. If they aren't the panel will be too weak for the stresses of a watercraft.

[Daniel Noyes]

I will only use the best quality plywood when building, that means Marine grade fir made right here in the good ol USA. Fir has been the standard of excelence here on the North Shore of Massachusetts for over a half century, fir is sustainably harvested and Im told is more rot resistant than okume untill the okume is treated with some pretty nasty fungicides... the saw dust is not something I want to be breathing while I am building.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Fir is more rot resistant but it is also 1/3rd heavier. Fir checks. Okoume doesn't.
Okoume is a tropical hardwood. It grows all year long so it doesn't have the earlywood/latewood grain of temperate zone softwoods, like fir and is therefore more stabile. The lack of grain in okoume make finishing it a breeze. The grain never prints thru' the finish.
You can buy okoume with a Lloyd's certification. No fir has that.
Also there is no rigid standard for US plywood unless it is mil. spec. And the standards that exist don't seem to be enforced. No matter how good the trees are if the mill is sloppy the ply will be too.
Even Sam Devlin spoke of occasionally being hosed when buying domestic plywood.

[Christine DeMerchant]

I bought my Okume from Noah's and did in fact do a boil test. (I was testing baltic ply because I needed a nice piece to make my centreboard and the Okume piece I had was too small. I just threw a piece of okume in the pot as a reference.)
It passed the boil test with flying colours (and so did the Baltic ply).
I built my Skerry with it and did not run into voids or bad stuff. It was perfectly well behaved and looks nice. After one season of good use there are no problems to report.
One 6mm sheet came to me warped though and this was a problem. If you buy it check that it is not warped. This piece also arrived scratched but that is likely bad handling, the same piece also had an ugly knot. I suspect they slipped me a left over not so nice piece.
I think the Okume I got from Noah behaved well and I have seen no problem develop because of it. I should have sent back the warped sheet.
Christine

Which brings me back to my original question, is Chinese Okoume OK? It was purchased from Noahs Marine in Canada which, so far as I know, has an excellent rep. I seek enlightenment please.

[gert]

Fir checks. Okoume doesn't

Yes it does.

Carina (16' faering) was built 6 years ago with $150 a sheet Okoume; an area about 4" wide and 18" long checked on her bottom that became apparent in her second season. Not a big deal and easily fixed but it was a surprise considering the claims about this plywood. My previous boat (6 hour canoe) was of local 1/4" marine Fir; it had such serious delam the manufactures rep came to see the boat and authorized a full refund.

Grey Seal's hull is what I believe to be Chinese "Okoume" (actualy Jequitiba) that has passed repeated freeze and boil tests; hopefully it won't present serious problems.

We do the best we can with the resources at hand.

A problem I did have with the Chinese plywood I built my molds out was a total body rash I. It was like boils everywhere from the bottom of my feet to the inside of my mouth; that scared me! They were completely gone the next day and I haven't had a recurrence. I varnished the molds to seal in what ever the poison was.

[Bob Smalser]

1) It grows all year long so it doesn't have the earlywood/latewood grain of temperate zone softwoods, like fir and is therefore more stabile.

2) Also there is no rigid standard for US plywood unless it is mil. spec. And the standards that exist don't seem to be enforced.

There is no cause-effect relationship between growth rings and stability. Stability results from species and density.

Doug Fir and Western Larch check where Okoume doesn't because besides being rot resistant where Okoume isn't, they are heavier, denser species and hence less stable in glued, crossgrain applications. They are also stronger than Okoume in the same proportionality and can generally be used in thinner thicknesses to achieve similar strength-weight requirements.

The American Plywood Association standards and enforcement are as good as any in the world. APA and Lloyds are simply grading services manufacturers subscribe to so as to train and certify their lumber graders. Lloyds and others are European and APA, West Coast Lumber Bureau and others are the convention here and in Canada. Look for the stamp. Marine-grade plywood uses better veneers with high percentages of either DF or Western Larch heartwood glued closer together for better void-free characteristics than construction grade plywoods. The boiling glue test is used by the USDA ILO soaking the sample in water for 10 years. Nobody seems to want to wait 10 years for certification.

http://www.apawood.org/perf_panels/i...rine%20plywood

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Bob is correct. The lack of earlywood/latewood in okoume does not make it more stabile. It makes it more homogenous. That may be one of the reasons it was a specified veneer for the BS1088 standard.

[paladin]

We used bothe Okoume and Sapele in building my last boat. I had ordered some veneer from the U.K. as I liked the grain....we then laminated the veneer to the ply in Thailand. I did have need for several additional sheets of ply to finish the interior....and we found some Russian made stuff with the veneer already applied (Russian Ash, a better figured wood than American Ash), it was considerably cheaper, so I bought it and did the boil test, etc.....it passed with flying colors....and when clear varnished, was lighter than Butternut and didn't take on the yellowish color of spruce....

[John Meachen]

I did a quick search and arrived at these locations:http://www.marineply.com/technical.htm http://www.worldpanel.com/bs1088.htm .Please pay attention to the parts that refer to okoume as non-durable and as such the name of the timber has to be included in the description of the material so that the purchaser can make an informed decision.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

It should be remembered that we are talking about wood as plywood not wood as lumber. Plywood is an engineered product made from naturally occuring materials. In order to achieve the desired result it may be necessary to choose components that don't supply all the qualities that are desired.
For instance, plywood is a structural sandwich made from veneers. No matter how marvelous a particular variety of wood is, if you can't get it to come off a veneering lathe in nice consistant sheets it will never have a future in the plywood industry. And a wood that can be veneered very thin is a plus too.
Bruynzeel has okoume plywood that it is guaranteed for 10 years. Of course the guanratee only applies it the wood is kept suitably coated.

[Daniel Noyes]

Like several people have mentioned if in dout toss it out, the price of the ply is such a small percentage of the over all cost of the boat.
When building I choose Marine Fir, when I built the Ipswich Bay 18' "Peggy Bliss" the and I was offered top quality Okume by the salesman instead of Marine fir, the price was within a dollar or two of each other (on a $80 + dollar sheet of ply) I just politely but firmly declined the offer.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Thta's interesting Dan, I would choose the Okoume every time even if it cost significantly more than the Marine Fir.

[ccx2]

This tread has me gunshy of buying the Okume from my local exotic lumberyard to build my Garvey. I went in today to look at it and it looked great to my untrained eye but i didnt see any stamp or marking at all on it, should i run from it? Also i went in and asked the guy behind the desk if he knew the country of origin and he said he didnt and that all he knew was it is 1088 grade, and they used to carry Joulet[sp] and no longer do because of a 30% increase in cost.

[ccx2]

They carry AB Doug Fir and im going to Sheath the boat inside and out , wonder if i should use it instead of the Okume?

[grafxman]

They carry AB Doug Fir and im going to Sheath the boat inside and out , wonder if i should use it instead of the Okume?

The test I conducted makes things pretty plain, at least for me. Check http://duckworksmagazine.com/08/howto/plytest/index.htm for details.

[KMacDonald]

Grafxman,
I agree, okoume is the gold standard for non-traditional wooden boat building.

[Bob Smalser]

They carry AB Doug Fir and im going to Sheath the boat inside and out , wonder if i should use it instead of the Okume?

Doug Fir requires at least 4oz glass and epoxy to keep it from checking.

But Okoume requires 4oz glass and epoxy to keep the service MC down below the rot threshold.

So you pay your money and make your choice.

A couple caveats:

1) No way I'd use any unstamped plywood without performing the boil test on a sample. Urea formaldehyde (interior grades) is cheaper than phenol resorcinol (exterior and marine grades) but won't pass the boil test where phenol will. Both glues will pass a short cold soak test, but interior-grade ply will eventually delam in a boat hull. I'd also cut up enough of it to evaluate any voids between seams, and that Okoume was used throughout. If you can't trust their milk, you can't trust anything else you can't see into, eh?

2) "AB", "AC" Doug Fir and the like are not marine ply, which is stamped as such by both the American and Canadian Plywood Assn's. ACX, CDX and other graded exterior ply's use the same glue, but have lower-grade lams with more sapwood and a lower standard for voids than marine. Personally, I wouldn't invest my time, epoxy and glass into the price difference between glorified wall sheathing/subfloor stock and real marine ply.

3) Doug Fir is unpleasant to work compared to Okoume, and is more difficult to finish nicely.....which is usually the real root of these arguments.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Personally I think the rot concerns for Okoume are horribly overblown.

Million $ sport fisherman built on Hatteras coast for going on 20 yrs cold molded BS 1088 Okoume whith excellent survey histories, and therse are boats moored or slipped.

For a daysailor drysailed, I see no reason glass would be required.

However I generally place an exteriror glass coat primarily for some abrasion resistance.

[ccx2]

Yep , i trust your test and go with the Okume as intended. Ill ask for a sample to boil test, good advice for unstamped ply. Ray, the reason i will glass the outside is to give it a little more ruff use than with paint and mainly to waterprof, wouldnt glassing the inside be just as important to waterprof from the inside?

[Bob Smalser]

Personally I think the rot concerns for Okoume are horribly overblown.

The explanation is real simple. Do what you have to do to keep the moisture content below 20%, and no wood will ever rot. That means the thinner the plies, the more glue content and the more coatings, the better....especially at the edges.



Besides best practices in design, bedding, fastening and maintenance, I can't think of an easier way to start out on the right path than a light grade of fabric and a little epoxy beneath the paint. It's easy enough to do.

Another effective moisture barrier without applying glass is apply CPES to the bare plywood immediately followed by hotcoating an epoxy fairing primer like the Navy surplus Mare Island Green below.



The CPES seeps deep and the epoxy primer bonds chemically to it....the resulting coating survives even collisions.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

This tread has me gunshy of buying the Okume from my local exotic lumberyard to build my Garvey. I went in today to look at it and it looked great to my untrained eye but i didnt see any stamp or marking at all on it, should i run from it? Also i went in and asked the guy behind the desk if he knew the country of origin and he said he didnt and that all he knew was it is 1088 grade, and they used to carry Joulet[sp] and no longer do because of a 30% increase in cost.

There used to be a number of name brand okoume makers. Over the years it has become harder to find their products. The thing about them is most had a label on every sheet so if you got a clunker panel you knew there was someone to complain to.
What you were talking about is Joubert. A name brand made in France. There is/was Bruguet (sic) also made in France and Shelmarine from Greece. The finast ply I have seen is Bruynzeel made in Holland. But it's so expensive nobody bothers to handle it any more.
If you are stuck goggle up the BS1088 standards list. Once you know the regulations you can judge whether the BS1088 you buy is for real or is BS. It's a lot easier to make a case for a refund if you know what you are talking about.

[ccx2]

Thanks, all great advice.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

I don't argue with anyone who wants to glass in and out but I don't typically do it. If customer wanted it I would be happy to comply, but it would come at a cost. Labor and materials you know.

As an aside I have the first CS 20 I ever built in my front yard. Clent wanted no glass otehr than taped edges specced inplans. Wanted to keep weight down to an absolute minimum. No glass cloth in or out. Boat is 6 yrs old now, spent it's entire life outside exposed to weather. Winter cover during winter months, boat cover most of the time it is not sialed but some water still gets in cockpit in summer months.

Paint has held up fine throughout, and no signs underlying Okkoume ply is in any distress. Sound throughout.

[JimD]

A covered trailer boat out of the water isn't much of a test for any wood or building method. I'd like to hear more about occume boats that spend six months a year on a mooring. Anyone know of any?

[ccx2]

Ray , i value your opinion highly. I will be useing my boat for fishing and dont want to spend alot of time on maint but want it to hold up well to outside trailer storage, such as water sitting in it sometimes between trips. I dont mind the add cost of glassing the inside and i am assumeing this will help and is the only way to insure it to be water tight, is this everkill? Bob Smalser's idea or method sounds good also but is marine paint as durable/waterproff as Sheating?