Do Parents Float Better Than Their Kids?

[Bob Triggs]

I see so many happy pictures shared here, of families out on the water enjoying a sailboat or powerboat, hair flying in the breeze etc. One thing I see often is that the children are wearing PFD's (life jackets) but the parents are not. Here on Puget Sound I see this almost every day that I am near the water. It is common to see see kids wearing pfd's, perched up on the bow, as their parents ( not wearing pfd's) are back in the cockpit, running the boat full-out.

Having been an EMT myself for several years, and now a wilderness first responder, former uscg-aux too- I often wonder what makes parents believe that this is a safe situation.

In the event of an accident are the parents somehow going to be able to don their flotation easily while their kids are corking about in the cold water? Will the parents hold onto the kids for flotation? Will the parents sink and die while their flotation wearing kids watch?

PFD's dont work if you arent wearing them. If you love your kids enough to require that they wear proper flotation, I think maybe you should be wearing it too.

[S B]

That is an interesting question. In the mid seventies, I fished for a few years, and my fathers response to the life jacket was " If you put that on, you will be careless, it will not save you, when you realize the next mistake you make may be your last,you will be less likely to make it." That was a long time ago, and for the time he was right. It was before the cell phone, gps and fast rescue services. At that time, if you found yourself in the water, you died. Times have changed, and anything that gives you a few more minutes is worth the effort of putting on.

[BETTY-B]

Luckily, I dont have kids...

DAN

[py]

Maybe grown ups are old enopugh to make the decision to take the risk. Responsibility for kids says err on the side of caution and have them wear PFD's until they are old enough to make their own decision. If you really want to be safe, stay home. Everything else is a judgement call. I don't think today's legislators agree with me though.

[boylesboats]

Huh? I sink like a rock...
Kids comes first, PFD's is a must.. If my kids still young, I'll get them proper fitted PFD's.. I rather to see my kids lives, than myself

[Michael Beckman]

I tend not to wear them. Though I also tend to be on boats that would stop if I fell out.

It would be an embarrassing thing to drown in 4 feet of water up in Chimacum creek..

[Yeadon]

I guess I'm just in the habit of putting on my pfd before going sailing. I got that way hanging out at CWB, where you have to wear a lifejacket to sail their boats. And now, I tend to make everybody in my peapod put on a life jacket, especially when the water temp is so cold.

I'll probably chill out a bit once the weather turns warm. That's when I'll want to jump in the water now and again. But if we're sailing, and there's motorboats nearby that are packed with summertime drunks, then we're all wearing our vests. Kapeesh?

[Brian Palmer]

We all wear them (parents and two kids, ages 7 and 9). In PA, kids 12 and under have to wear them when on deck.

Yesterday we were out, and my son decided to hang both his feet over the side while hanging on to the hand rail as I set the mizzen. The marine police actually saw him before I did and yelled at him to "Get back in the boat!" Left quite an impression on him. Surprisingly, this was not followed by a "curteousy inspection," probably because were were all wearing our PFDs, so they knew we had enough on board.

Later that day we saw a powerboat with about 7 people on it pulled over and cited for not having a throwable device.

Brian

[SamSam]

I tend not to wear them. Though I also tend to be on boats that would stop if I fell out.

It would be an embarrassing thing to drown in 4 feet of water up in Chimacum creek..

Embarrassing for who, the living? I seem to remember one of the 7 guys who raised the flag on Iwo Jima, passed out drunk and drowned in a puddle.

I usually don't wear a lifejacket either, but have fallen off a Sunfish type boat and the lines tangled up enough to allow it to sail off faster than I could swim after it. I think most boats could be blown away faster than I could swim, if there was enough wind. Of course, if you're off a boat and in the water involuntarily to begin with, you might be injured and not able to swim or even be unconscious. Even so, I also tend not to wear them.

[katiedobe]

I always wear mine. Get a comfortable one and put it on. Comfort is important.

[George Roberts]

"In the event of an accident are the parents somehow going to be able to don their flotation easily while their kids are corking about in the cold water? Will the parents hold onto the kids for flotation? Will the parents sink and die while their flotation wearing kids watch?"

The risk is often different for different age groups. A parent might be able to swim to shore while a kid might not be able to. And kids may tend to fall overboard more than parents do.

[Brian Palmer]

Here's a recap of the all the boating related fatalities in PA for the last 10 years (1998 to 2007, 125 fatalities total).

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/boatcrs/fatalrecap.pdf

A lack of PFD use is very often a factor among adult victims.

Brian

[outofthenorm]

Yesterday we were out, and my son decided to hang both his feet over the side while hanging on to the hand rail as I set the mizzen. The marine police actually saw him before I did and yelled at him to "Get back in the boat!"

Brian

What the ..? Since when can't a kid dangle his feet in the water? I don't get it.

- Norm

[Paul Pless]

I don't get it.

- Norm

Me either.



As far as wearing a life vest goes, I don't think adults should have to wear one at all times. I know I don't. I'm a strong swimmer and I do try to use good common sense though. If I'm in a canoe, kayak, or small boat, by myself on the river and in the current I definitely wear one. If I'm with someone else in those situations, I might not, unless I'm approaching shoals or rapids. I hardly ever wear one on the local inland lakes, unless I'm in a bass boat and am stepping out at high speed.

More important than a life vest to me, and more negligent too, are power-boaters that don't use the safety disconnect switch or 'kill switch' on their boats. I've seen a few of the results of not doing so, sometimes its comical, other times its absolutely tragic...

[Yeadon]

We might've missed something there in the translation about the kid hanging over the side of the boat. Sounds like the kid was doing something a little goofy, and the cop told him to knock it off. (Sounds like his dad was about to tell him, too.)

I will be dangling my feet in the water tomorrow afternoon, cop or no cop.

[Alexander2]

Kids like to emulate their parents, you wear one and the kids will want to as well. You don't wear one and the kids feel as though they are being treated as kids and will rebel.

A good pfd is comfortable and I see no good reason not to wear one.

[Brian Palmer]

What the ..? Since when can't a kid dangle his feet in the water? I don't get it.

- Norm

OK, Just to clarify, the kid was hanging off the hand rail on the cabin top, facing the boat, with his hips outside of and below the toe rail, as if he were planning to let go and slip into the water. So he was actually "dangling" practically most of his legs in the water. He is very strong (does gymnastics 14 hours a week), and so we have not worried too much about this behaviour in the past, except to remind him that he may get rather wet and cold before we can get back to pick him up, if he lets go.

Although he is 9, he is about the size of the average 6 year old. So the marine police probably also thought he was a lot younger than he really is.

We do not have lifelines, BTW.

Still, I think the marine police office's rebuke may have put an end to future "full body" dangling almost as surely as an accidental swim would have.

Brian

[SaltyD from BC]

There is a commercial on tv here by the National Safety Council or such. It shows two small kids huddled together with their PFDs on in the front of a small power boat on a lake. It zooms out showing no one else in the boat. Can't remember the exact one liner at the end but its along the lines of your not much good to your kids if fall in not wearing a life jacket...

[ahp]

I hate PFDs. I never wear one if I can avoid it. I also swim 1000 yds nonstop several times per week. Yes, that does not make me drown proof.

Most people are poor swimmers, or not at all, and do dumb things. One summer weekend in Michigan 30 people drowned. They fell off boats, they fell off docks, they tried swimming across a lake without an escort boat.

[Wild Wassa]

Of the 3 times that I've been in the water it has been the Skipper's fault on all occassions. Each time I've been injured and not in good condition, not in good condition to sustain a long swim ... and I can swim.

When one of the Skippers sent me forward once on a Catalina that I had just finished restoring, that we took out to check the boat. I got absolutely hammered. No joke.

When I was halfway along the deck the Skipper dropped the tiller extension in over 20 kts and an involuntary happened. As we rounded up. I got hit so hard on my temple, as I was trying to duck under the boom that I broke three wire rope lifelines and smashed a staunchon right off the deck. When I departed the Catalina the Skipper wasn't skillfull enough to get me back on board, he just couldn't control the boat. A PFD worked in my favour that day. I had to get myself back on board. The biggest mistake that I made that day was believing the Skipper's trash talk about his sailing ability. We were the only boat on the water that day. The water police weren't on duty either.

One of my friends Sarah Kennedy was swept off a deck and dislocated her elbow in the process. She was in a bad way when she hit the water. I saw it happen to her. A PFD allowed her to wait until help arrived.

On yachts we don't have to wear a PFD if a code 'Y' isn't up, when we club race. A Code Y is hoisted at 15 knots.

In all TYA events, or when we race at night, or race in open keelboats, and in all dinghy classes, PFDs are mandatory.

One accident, I saw was horrific. A self-launching pole broke at the beak and came back into the cockpit of a Flying Fifteen like a spear and it hit the crew between the eyes, I didn't see the accident, I saw the crew's head. You can't tell when a PFD will be needed. The crew was knocked out and in the water.

When a sailor has been knocked out and can't help themselves to get back on board, hopefully the PFD has turned them the right way up so at least they can float and breath.

I see at least 3-6 major injuries each season, when sailboat racing. It is almost always a head injury ... or a servere rope burn that is a second degree burn. Try to get back into a boat with serious hand injuries.

Warren.

[Alexander2]

I hate PFDs. I never wear one if I can avoid it. I also swim 1000 yds nonstop several times per week. Yes, that does not make me drown proof.

Why do you hate to wear a pfd? Style, comfort, some other reason?
Have you tried one of the inflatables?
I believe making anyone wear an orange puffy Wal-Mart $7.99 pfd borders on cruel and inhuman punishment , but there are many better choices out there.

[Paul Pless]

Why do you hate to wear a pfd? Style, comfort, some other reason?
Have you tried one of the inflatables?
I believe making anyone wear an orange puffy Wal-Mart $7.99 pfd borders on cruel and inhuman punishment , but there are many better choices out there.

I agree that some life preservers aren't uncomfortable, hell I feel weird not wearing one when in a kayak, even an open kayak; but the biggest hindrance to comfort when wearing a pfd in the South is heat. Essentially from today until the end of September this year, any day that I choose to be on the water I can count on it being at least 90 degrees with 80-90% humidity. That would be the same for Art (ahp) over in south Georgia.

[Mrleft8]

Yes.

[clancy]

the biggest hindrance to comfort when wearing a pfd in the South is heat. Essentially from today until the end of September this year, any day that I choose to be on the water I can count on it being at least 90 degrees with 80-90% humidity. That would be the same for Art (ahp) over in south Georgia.

This is the reason for learning to roll; rotary cooling

[boylesboats]

I agree that some life preservers aren't uncomfortable, hell I feel weird not wearing one when in a kayak, even an open kayak; but the biggest hindrance to comfort when wearing a pfd in the South is heat. Essentially from today until the end of September this year, any day that I choose to be on the water I can count on it being at least 90 degrees with 80-90% humidity. That would be the same for Art (ahp) over in south Georgia.

This is the reason for learning to roll; rotary cooling

That what bailing bucket for.....

[Michael Beckman]

Thinking more on this, I -do- wear a lifejacket when sailing for the most part. I never did while sailing on Martha (68' schooner), as it wasn't required. It would be pretty easy to fall off too, but I certainly learned to keep one hand for the boat.

I don't wear lifejackets when I am near shore (ie: i can stand up in the water), or when I'm rowing.. I simply cant see how I could fall out of a rowing boat.

[boylesboats]

Thinking more on this, I -do- wear a lifejacket when sailing for the most part. I never did while sailing on Martha (68' schooner), as it wasn't required. It would be pretty easy to fall off too, but I certainly learned to keep one hand for the boat.

I don't wear lifejackets when I am near shore (ie: i can stand up in the water), or when I'm rowing.. I simply cant see how I could fall out of a rowing boat.

Michael,
Friendly advices from me... You are still a young fella, have a long enjoyable life yet to live..

Even you can drown in a foot of water.. No matter how good swimmer you are.. Just being intoxicated, knocked out cold, or an accident can happen at anytime unexpectly.. those PFD can help keep your head above water..
Type III inflatable kinds are comfortable.. Floation jackets (windbreaker style) are handy, and it don't even looks bulky as Type I, II, III... Type IV is an throwable devices..
http://www.pfdma.org/faq/default.aspx

It's your life my friend....

[Bob Triggs]

Thinking more on this, I -do- wear a lifejacket when sailing for the most part. I never did while sailing on Martha (68' schooner), as it wasn't required. It would be pretty easy to fall off too, but I certainly learned to keep one hand for the boat.

I don't wear lifejackets when I am near shore (ie: i can stand up in the water), or when I'm rowing.. I simply cant see how I could fall out of a rowing boat.

You could easily be knocked out of a rowboat.

[Bob Triggs]

"In the event of an accident are the parents somehow going to be able to don their flotation easily while their kids are corking about in the cold water? Will the parents hold onto the kids for flotation? Will the parents sink and die while their flotation wearing kids watch?"

The risk is often different for different age groups. A parent might be able to swim to shore while a kid might not be able to. And kids may tend to fall overboard more than parents do.

George- I dont mind if you dont wear a pfd.

[Michael Beckman]

You could easily be knocked out of a rowboat.

I'm not seeing it. Sitting down, hands on an oar or two. I guess I'd fly out if another boat rammed me.. but then a lifejacket wouldn't do much good because i'd be blown to smithereens.

I realize its a risk. But so is most of life. Perhaps we should all walk around in body armor?

[boylesboats]

I'm not seeing it. Sitting down, hands on an oar or two. I guess I'd fly out if another boat rammed me.. but then a lifejacket wouldn't do much good because i'd be blown to smithereens.

I realize its a risk. But so is most of life. Perhaps we should all walk around in body armor?

Michael,
Have you ever seen river dories goes through Colorado river, or around Lava Falls? Class 3 or maybe Class 4 whitewater action there..




Yeah, you can get thrown from a boat.... easily

[Michael Beckman]

Thats a little different from a calm day on flat water..

Of course I'd wear one in heavy weather. And you'd never get me into a boat in those crazy rapids. I'd be afraid of smashing my head on a rock.

[ahp]

PFDs have changed over the years, and not always for the better. The old style PFDs would keep your face out of water even if you were unconcous, a real consideration. The were awkward to wear, so now people can wear the kind that are much more comfortable but not as effective, when worse comes to worse.

[Kaa]

Michael,
Have you ever seen river dories goes through Colorado river, or around Lava Falls? Class 3 or maybe Class 4 whitewater action there..

I've been in serious whitewater. Let me point out that PFDs are only mildly useful there. Yes, you wear them because it's another chance to stay alive, but by themselves they will neither get you to the surface, nor keep you there.

Kaa

[Bobcat]

I just bought some new life vests as my kids outgrew their old ones. They were complaining about how dorky they were. "You should have seen the old ones," I told him. When I was a boy, the life jackets were big and bulky and hot. I could not wait to get old enough not to wear one.

Point of fact, my father never wore one and I swam much better than he did.

When I worked at sea, we never wore life vests. Theory was that if you fell overboard, you were dead anyway. I was told my first day on the boat that if I fell overboard and the boss "got me back" I was fired.

[Brian Palmer]

I was told my first day on the boat that if I fell overboard and the boss "got me back" I was fired.

I'd be OK with that.

Brian

[Bobcat]

I'd be OK with that.

Brian

I thought it was a fair deal.

Boss did go overboard in the harbor once. He was pushing on a steel piling with a bin board and looked away. The end of the board slipped off the slippery steel and then he was pushing on nothing but air. He described a nice arc as he went over the rail. We did threaten to fire him, but we were laughing too hard to make it sound legit....

[SaltyD from BC]

I've been in serious whitewater. Let me point out that PFDs are only mildly useful there. Yes, you wear them because it's another chance to stay alive, but by themselves they will neither get you to the surface, nor keep you there.

Kaa

I'll attest to that. Years ago a buddy talked me into doing some whitewater 'swimming'. He had tryed it a couple times and said it was a blast. We were about 19 .

We had wet suits on, plus a life vest, plus a water ski belt and jumped off a cliff into rapids in the Adams river. I should have known better when a group of white water kayakers stopped to watch us. I heard one guy say to his buddy "I thought we were f*&^'n nuts!"

My buddy jumped in, mostly floated on his back - got flipped around a bit and popped out the end of the canyon. My ride, much more intence. I didn't jump far enough and hit the main run. Basically I was swimming for all I was worth to try to get to the surface through white foam but not getting anywhere. I got spun end for end a couple of times and finally came up at the end of the rapids. I had some choice words for him!

A couple of weeks later a guy drowned trying the same stupid stunt. Never underestimate whitewater...

[Pernicious Atavist]

I carry PFD's, wear them when warranted, but not all the time. If you're afraid of drowning anytime you're in water deep enough to drown in, sell the boat and take only showers.
Oh--then there's choking on food, which 1,000s do every year, better stick to soup.
Then, there's getting electrocuted--better avoid living in a house with electricity.
Cars--avoid them too.
And the sun.
Proper caution when warranted, like reefing when you think about it, is wise. Running scared, well....
Man-up, but do it wisely.

[KMacDonald]

Do Parents Float Better Than Their Kids?

YES

[switters]

It's interesting to see the ways in which our watercraft and how we use them determine how we view our safety.

As a canoe guy I had mine in the boat but rarely wore it. The boat will never travel far enough away that I can't get to it.

A turning point was when I promised the SWMBO at the time of my boundary waters trip to wear one the entire time I was on the water, no questions asked about how much I spent on the PFD. Now that I have a nice extrasport I wear it a lot more, it has my whistle and river knife attached and a pocket for cigars and fishing gear.

Side note on age, I have had enough close calls to know that anything can happen at anytime, usually fishing for salmon with my dad. Dammed if he will wear a PFD though.

[Paul Pless]

I carry PFD's, wear them when warranted, but not all the time. If you're afraid of drowning anytime you're in water deep enough to drown in, sell the boat and take only showers.
Oh--then there's choking on food, which 1,000s do every year, better stick to soup.
Then, there's getting electrocuted--better avoid living in a house with electricity.
Cars--avoid them too.
And the sun.
Proper caution when warranted, like reefing when you think about it, is wise. Running scared, well....
Man-up, but do it wisely.

One should also exercise appropriate caution when using epoxy.

[switters]

One should also exercise appropriate caution when using epoxy.

especially after copious amount of coffee or other beverages.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Not fair, Paul! Not fair!
Anyway--what good would wearing a PFD do when I'm epoxying?
Confusing issues, as usual....

[Wild Wassa]

If your parent has gone over and you just can't find them and you have looked until dark ... then just pop a flair.





... and with a bit of luck, the Coast Guard will have trouble finding you as well.

Warren.

[epoxyboy]

I hate PFDs. I never wear one if I can avoid it. I also swim 1000 yds nonstop several times per week. Yes, that does not make me drown proof.

Most people are poor swimmers, or not at all, and do dumb things. One summer weekend in Michigan 30 people drowned. They fell off boats, they fell off docks, they tried swimming across a lake without an escort boat.

Just curious - do you wear a seat belt when in a car? Yes, this is a serious question. Personally I would not venture out in a small boat without a PFD, and I feel bloody naked in a car without a seatbelt. And no, I'm not one of those nanny state, eliminate all risk from life sort of people. But when it all goes wrong, it usually happens very fast and in the worst possible combination of circumstances - being a great swimmer aint gonna help if getting wet started with getting a whack on the head from a boom, and going over the side unconcious!! Anything that helps and doesn't cost the earth has got to be good. I draw the line at a $800 dollar 406MHz epirb though!

Pete

[Tom Hunter]

Kids wear them because it is the law and you get fined if they are not on.

Adults should have discretion. I don't wear mine rowing around Salem harbor, unless things are very hairy. I always wear one at night, what I do during the day varies with the boat and conditions. Now that good inflatables are available I wear one more often.

[Mad Scientist]

[quote=Alexander2;1855489]...an orange puffy Wal-Mart $7.99 pfd...[quote]

The PFD I bought at the local Wal-Mart was manufactured locally (Buoy-O-Boy brand). OTOH, another manufacturer just announced a plan to outsource its manufacturing to Vietnam.
Read the label, and buy locally when you can!

It's probably a matter of time until PFDs become mandatory for small boats. I always wear one anyway, as I float like an anchor! But, I don't want to be forced to carry an EPIRB, floater suit and liferaft aboard a 15' daysailer. One of those 'steep, slippery slope' situations.

Tom

[Brian Palmer]

"Risk" is determined from the probability and severity of an adverse event happening.

Although the probability that I might drown from a fall overboard is actually quite low, the severity of the consequences of my drowning (or becoming severely disabled by a near drowning) to my family, friends, and co-workers is really quite high. Simply put, if I die, it is really going to screw things up for a lot of people.

Therefore, I can reduce that risk by wearing a PFD that will reduce the probability that I might drown if I fall overboard. Cheap insurance.

Brian

[TimH]

I guess we need more stupid laws, like the seatbelt law.

People need to be told what to do under threat of punishment

helmets in the shower are a good idea too.