Fuel costs

[kharee]

At what price per gal. for fuel will the the cost/benefit rationale shift in favor of sail or motor sail as opposed to motoring? I'm thinking in terms of cruising especially long distance.

[S.V. Airlie]

At what price per gal. for fuel will the the cost/benefit rationale shift in favor of sail or motor sail as opposed to motoring? I'm thinking in terms of cruising especially long distance.

I suspect power boats between 20-50' feet will be tied up at the dock. Those over 50' or their owners won't care. No problem for me..I like to have a little room.

[The Bigfella]

Horses for courses.

I don't have a motor cruiser to satisfy my sailing desires and have no interest in owning a boat that does neither sailing nor motor-boating well.

My cruiser is somewhere I can work (writing) or entertain. It would take a rather special sailboat to replace its ability in either regard. Show me a yacht that can entertain 22 people - who can still enjoy themselves in small groups in different spots across the boat eg on the foredeck, on top of the galley, on top of the main cabin, the sundeck, the aft deck - then there's the inside...

I took it for a run yesterday, down to Deep Bay. I must've used all of $3 worth of diesel to get there and back. There was only one other boat there to remind me of civilisation.

As for long distance cruising. Its still a cheap way of travelling if you share the costs among a few people. Three couples is non-intrusive and at three hotel rooms a night - say $450, (and no airfares) that buys a lot of diesel.

[Tonyr]

If you slow down and drive a hull properly designed for displacement speed or less (5 knots?), you can get between 10 mpg and 15 mpg. Such a simple power boat (say 24/25 feet?) costs little if anything more to own than a sailboat of the same length if you cruise up to say 60 days a season, and it is probably a lot more comfortable to be in. What you can't do is cross an ocean in it. For really long distance, sail is the only way to go. For shorter hops in challenging water (tide rips, tricky navigation, fog) power offers a good deal, and is pretty cheap.

FWIW. Tony.

[Rapelapente]

Do again your calculation with 8.27 Usd per Gallon .... Which is the diesel cost here in France .... Better to sail... any distance...

Quotation made with a rate of 1.5 $ for 1 €.

[The Bigfella]

Last time I measured Grantala's consumption, I used 18 litres for a 13 n. mile trip. I make that about 2.8 nm per US gallon. Diesel here is about $6 per US gallon. Its about a 2 kilometre round trip from my mooring to "a million miles from anywhere" ie, Deep Bay. Call that 1.1 nm or $6.67. I use near enough to twice that much petrol in the 40 kilometre round trip to get to the boat.

Based on those figures, its under $200 (return) for me to take the boat down to Sydney Harbour for the fireworks. 22 people on board into $200 = $9 a head for the best show in town. I won't be collecting fees - provided someone brings some food and booze.

[Lew Barrett]

For any boat over 32 feet or so, fuel, even at these prices, remains the lowest part of an owners expenses. With good moorage pushing $12-14 a foot here in Seattle, add in paint, varnish, labor, and insurance and one by far eclipses the cost of fuel on a daily basis. Future availability, more than price, is the great concern for me.
I'll illustrate. Diesel, at $4.00 per. A fill from bottom to top on my 50 foot boat will be $1200. As she's a semi-displacement efficient hull, I can opt to cruise at 7.5 knots, a speed that will leave sailboats in my wake. At that speed I will have almost 1000 miles of range, more than enough for a summer's cruising season. Let's say that season lasts 3 months. In the same time I will have paid $2000 for moorage, $600 for insurance, and the pro-rated portion of my annual
maintenance bill, as well as the costs of use exclusive of fuel....food, guest dockage fees, registration fees, etc just for the summer cruise. At any point along the way, if I consider the real costs of ownership, it's cheaper to run the boat and live on the hook than it is to tie her up in a decent permanent paid moorage.
If you consider the impact of the costs of many months of light to no use in the off season, the equation is even more skewed. Sure, it's no benefit or pleasure to pay $1000 to fuel my boat when $400 would have done so 2 years ago, but it still represents the lowest parts of the cost of owning a recreational yacht....of whatever size.
At these levels, or even 50% higher, fuel can only be the straw that breaks the camel's back when it comes to ownership and use costs of a powerboat of the type we prefer here. The real costs of ownership kick in when the boat is sitting idle.

[Thad Van Gilder]

well the way I look at it the Sea Ray guys will sell their boats at a large loss and the guys that have been motorboating for years are slowly trickling into sailing.

That's what I see anyway.

-Thad

[Figment]

For any boat over 32 feet or so, fuel, even at these prices, remains the lowest part of an owners expenses.

yeah, try telling that to the dunderheads at my club!

Uproar at the membership meeting last night when the House Chairman had the temerity to suggest that the club charge at least the wholesale price for fuel currently in the tank. you know... at least BREAK EVEN on the sales so that we'd have money to refill the tank next month without dipping into the General Fund.

1) If the difference between $3.75/gallon and $3.90/gallon means you can't go out fishing, then maybe you're a bit overextended and ought to rethink the big picture, eh?

2) At $3.90, are we still a LOT cheaper than the commercial fuel dock down the river? Yeah? Then STFU, sit down, and get some perspective!

[Dan McCosh]

An interesting comparison is a powered catamaran vs. the same in sail. The initial cost is lower for the power version, and operating costs end up surprisingly similar.

[Kaa]

An interesting comparison is a powered catamaran vs. the same in sail. The initial cost is lower for the power version, and operating costs end up surprisingly similar.

I think I've seen that one. In my opinion that comparison was a bit skewed because it assumed the sail cat would replace it's sails (fancy semi-racing sails at full price) quite frequently. And, of course, the price of fuel at the time that comparison was written up was quite different from what it is now.

Kaa

[StevenBauer]

The cost/benefit rationale is in favor of sail as opposed to motoring at any fuel cost. Period.


Steven

[Dan McCosh]

I think I've seen that one. In my opinion that comparison was a bit skewed because it assumed the sail cat would replace it's sails (fancy semi-racing sails at full price) quite frequently. And, of course, the price of fuel at the time that comparison was written up was quite different from what it is now.

Kaa

I haven't seen much actual data. My info came from a friend who sold a sailboat and bought the power cat. His reason was he is in a wheelchair, and it was easier to handle. The cost came as something of a surprise. The initial cost, amortizing the sails, handling the rig, etc., added up to a substantial cost against the additional fuel for the motorized version. Also--the sail version still consumed considerable fuel in actual cruising.

[George Roberts]

"For any boat over 32 feet or so, fuel, even at these prices, remains the lowest part of an owners expenses."

Like every other facet of life - Energy is cheap.

[paladin]

I've thought long and hard about this....for crossing oceans and wandering the world at length.....a sailboat can't be beat.....If you intend to stay within 200-300 miles of a coast, perhaps as far as 1000 miles, and live aboard for extended periods, a full displacement hull would have the economic edge...
When I started the Blackhawk concept, it was to be a boat that could be used by one or possibly a couple for 2-3 weeks at a time, would be extremely efficient on fuel, but did not include such things as air conditioning....although I like hot showers and hot meals. Two burners will suffice, a small reefer/fridge, and fans....under extreme conditions the boat should do 17-19 knots but burn a lot more fuel than at 7-8 knots....follow the weather, slowly, carefully. Over the years I spent more money on toys than on living expenses....I also learned that some wives are far more expensive than others.....if you have a mate that is prudent, a small diesel full displacement system can be very economical.

[The Bigfella]

The cost/benefit rationale is in favor of sail as opposed to motoring at any fuel cost. Period.

If you want to introduce cost / benefit analysis, you need to have comparable options.

[StevenBauer]

If you want to introduce cost / benefit analysis, you need to have comparable options.

Perhaps you misunderstood. Stinkpotting is not an option.


Steven

[PeterSibley]

No one has factored in the cost of having to listen to bloody engines ALL the time ! You would have to pay me a lot !

[StevenBauer]

No one has factored in the cost of having to listen to bloody engines ALL the time ! You would have to pay me a lot !

Bingo!



Steven

[carioca1232001]

No one has factored in the cost of having to listen to bloody engines ALL the time ! You would have to pay me a lot !

That is exactly why some of my friends reserve a place for themselves, well in advance, on the fly-bridge of my motor-cruiser.

The 'fly' seats only three people, but if there wasn´t a seating limitation, I could foresee the whole lot, including myself, making it for the 'fly' in due course !

[paladin]

and that is the very reason that when I started drawing this last boat, the engine is small, in a well insulated sound deadening compartment, on soft mounts and an Aqua Drive coupler......I wanna look at the tach to ensure that the engine is running.

[carioca1232001]

Paladin,

My late father-in-law in Rio, besides being an ardent radio amateur fan ('ham') in the early 1920´s - he held an IEEE (US) membership in those times - was also an avid sailor in the Snipe clas

When I was in my early 30´s - and he in his mid-70´s - he´d tell me how uncomfortable it is to hear engines growling, time in and time out, when one is out in the ocean, in virtual nirvana.....

A few outings in my motor-cruiser brought that comment of his into its real perspective...........and it is not because mine is any noisier than any other twin-screw..........

I hasten to add that I do indulge in the flexibility and ease that is offered by power boats.....but after a time, the purring of the motors does begin to get on one´s wick....

[paladin]

My very first sailboat with aux power had problems......after a few years the engine, with very few hours on it, required rebuilding from lack of use.....in 5-6 years I had run less than 80 gallons of fuel through it, I only used it around Annapolis when I had to use the engine to get into and out of a slip. I actually sailed into and out of the slip at Herrington Harbor south of Annapolis.....I didn't like to listen to the engine...just the sails and lines.......My last boat I had to make mental note to run the engine for an hour or so every other day....If I have another boat I know that I am not physically able to handle the sails and rigging alone, and I am accustomed to sailing single handed....so........if the engine is the only way I can get back on the water...so be it......
although I am going to the grandcritters for Sunday dinner with their mom and dad, they are picking me up 'cause I can't drive right now.....and I know that the subject of the boat is going to come up as I have already had some remarks as pertains to some drawings etc that I have made and have pinned to the cork board.....it ain't agonna be nice.....

[carioca1232001]

Paladin,
I get your point.

Sailboat engines are not anywhere as annoying to tolerate for longer periods of time as powerboat engines are.

How about coming to Rio for a vac, with a place reserved on the fly-bridge of mine for as long as you elect to stay ? On the fly-bridge of my motor-cruiser, you may feel an attenuated diesel throb, drowned out by the wonderful sights and the air rushing around you.....

[paladin]

Thanks for the kind offer......the last time I was there I intended to stay for a couple of days, actually stayed for nearly three months, and If I had not escaped I would probably still be there......almost got captured by a wimmins.......

[carioca1232001]

There are times when engines, indeed, are ushered into life........run...run....

[Woxbox]

OK, here's my plastic fantastic boat. She sails typically in the 6-8 knot range, higher speeds seen on the right days, with more than 10 knots acheived from time to time.. She motors with a pair of Yanmar 2GMs at about 6.5 knots, or with one engine running at 5.5 knots. Fuel consumption is 0.4 gallons/hour with one engine, about 0.6 with two (haven't figured that exaclty yet, since we don't do it for extended periods.)

So whether sailing or motoring, the speed isn't bad and the cost is quite low. We carry 40 gallons in two tanks, for an effective range of roughly 400 miles.

But to the room and comfort issue, you can have a crowd on board and people do find all sorts of places to congregate. And the boat sails flatter and rolls far less than a power monohull.

Whether you like fiberglass or catamarans isn't my point here. The reason these cruising cats are selling when other types are not is because they do a lot of things quite well and very efficiently. So back to the original question -- you can have your cake and eat it, too. These cats don't need engines most of the time, but when they do, it's still a cheap way to go.

[paladin]

How is the insurance on your cat? When I had the CSY in the islands there were a couple/three fellow chartering out of Marigot Bay that screamed bloody murder about the insurance rates.....for some reason the insurance companies dunno like catamarans....and at the time, at least one of the skippers had more time at sea than I, and his tickets were bigger/better......

[Woxbox]

Insurance is $1500 a year. It's a 35-footer. I'm sure they ask a lot more for the bigger ones. That's still less than the slip ($4,500 annual) but nevertheless the second-biggest expense. After that it's just odds and ends until the bottom needs paint.

[PeterSibley]

and that is the very reason that when I started drawing this last boat, the engine is small, in a well insulated sound deadening compartment, on soft mounts and an Aqua Drive coupler......I wanna look at the tach to ensure that the engine is running.

Chuck , the Hatz Silent range is the quietest thing I ever haven't heard . I don't know about a marine version ,but a hydraulic drive could work .You have to put your hand on the outer casing to know if it 's running .

http://www.industrialengines.ca/engines.htm

[Tom Hunter]

I think the answer is always going to be "it depends"

This is a bad place to ask the question, because wooden boat people tend to be very dedicated to their particular boat. It takes a lot of time and comittment to own one of these, so we spend a lot of time looking and thinking about them.

You can see that in the posts from the power boat guys, they thought of fuel a long time ago and decided it was worth it for them. I'm a sailboat guy, and I agree with Paladin, the more time under sail the better. I like low fuel consumption because it saves money, but I bought my boat because I love sailing.

If you could poll a more mainstream set of power boaters you might see a different reaction. There does seem to be some evidence that fuel prices are affecting their behavior. But I don't see lots of them moving to sail, I see them selling thier boats.

One other thing that seems to be true here, the level of skill and knowledge is pretty high allk round. I grew up sailing, I don't even remember when I learned what tacking was, or jibsheets, or red-right-returning. I often sail with people who did not have that kind of upbringing. To them the sailboat is a difficult to operate machine.

On the WBF the power boaters are very knowledgable people. But out in the world there are a lot of people who buy power boats thinking of them as cars on the water. I'm not sure those folks will want to switch to sail.

[Woxbox]

Tom, Good points. The Walker Wingsail boats were supposed to bridge the gap. A sailboat you "drive" by sitting inside and up front with a steering wheel and a joystick. It apparently works, but there's still that problem of the premium cost for such a complex boat. How many gallons of fuel could you buy for the price of the system? Also, it's possibly a machine that doesn't appeal to the power boat or the sailboat set. No strings to pull, and not fast enough for the stinkpotters.

[PatCassidy]

(new speed cubed) divided by (old speed cubed) times (old consumption) equals (new consumption).

In other words...... slow down!

[Lew Barrett]

I think the answer is always going to be "it depends"

This is a bad place to ask the question, because wooden boat people tend to be very dedicated to their particular boat. It takes a lot of time and comittment to own one of these, so we spend a lot of time looking and thinking about them.

You can see that in the posts from the power boat guys, they thought of fuel a long time ago and decided it was worth it for them. I'm a sailboat guy, and I agree with Paladin, the more time under sail the better. I like low fuel consumption because it saves money, but I bought my boat because I love sailing.

If you could poll a more mainstream set of power boaters you might see a different reaction. There does seem to be some evidence that fuel prices are affecting their behavior. But I don't see lots of them moving to sail, I see them selling thier boats.

One other thing that seems to be true here, the level of skill and knowledge is pretty high allk round. I grew up sailing, I don't even remember when I learned what tacking was, or jibsheets, or red-right-returning. I often sail with people who did not have that kind of upbringing. To them the sailboat is a difficult to operate machine.

On the WBF the power boaters are very knowledgable people. But out in the world there are a lot of people who buy power boats thinking of them as cars on the water. I'm not sure those folks will want to switch to sail.

This is a just about perfect answer, and I want to say that my own post wasn't intended ( as I never am myself) to draw a line between the types. I intended to answer the original question in respect of the passage-maker type of boat I prefer. You'd be and probably will be, just as likely to see narrow, displacement and semi-displacement hulls becoming popular as you will see certain types of people abandoning power for sail. Economics will always drive most people's decisions, but the economics of a forty foot sailboat are hardly more appealing than the ones of a like sized powerboat for the average person.

Me? Just to be clear, I love sailboats and intend to own one soon. But to sail, not to save money. If I want to save money I'll get a bicycle and stop smoking cigars. Now you sail guys back down and nobody gets hurt, hear me Steven? And one more thing, a properly designed, well insulated and muffled powerboat can be amazingly quiet and pleasant underway. Ask anybody who has sat on Rita's aft deck on a nice afternoon. And, when, as is so very often the case, we pass sailboats making passage under power with bare poles in the typical foggy, windless conditions up here, I always wave at them politely, but have to think: "poor suckers are taking it on the chin motoring on a sailboat."

[carioca1232001]

......And one more thing, a properly designed, well insulated and muffled powerboat can be amazingly quiet and pleasant underway. Ask anybody who has sat on Rita's aft deck on a nice afternoon. And, when, as is so very often the case, we pass sailboats making passage under power with bare poles in the typical foggy, windless conditions up here, I always wave at them politely, but have to think: "poor suckers are taking it on the chin motoring on a sailboat."

How many owners/builders of powerboats that you are acquainted with, have paid the same caring attention (as you once described in a thread on WBF) to cutting down noise and vibration on their vessels ?

I suspect that there is a considerable cost overrun to consider, in order to put such a noise and vibration abatement scheme into effect.

[PeterSibley]

You're probably right Lew, my experience of powerboats was mainly on 40 foot prawn trawlers with 500 hp diesels booming away .OK when you're working but not so much fun for play .

[paladin]

Peter.....I intend to go with the Beta marine diesel. I did the drawings for a local fellow doing a re-powering and offered to do the design if he would let me make some measurements....then I got him a good sized discount on the engine.....I used soft lord mounts and the Aqua drive, then had the engine covers made 2 inches larger all around, isolated the exhaust and other heavy lines, and from 3 feet away he couldn't hear the engine and almost could not feel it...and at the helm there was no sound or feel. I had some lead foam and some other material left over from another project and wanted to try it. He left for Florida (retired) and he said he actually forgot to turn off the engine a couple of times because he forgot it was running....and it was the 60 horsepower model...

[The Bigfella]

I think the critical difference is with the purpose of the boats. With sail, it is often about the journey. With power it is normally about the destination.

My boat is 50' long and comfortably handles 22 people at the destination. There is no way in the world I would countenance 22 people on board for any journey of more than a few hours. A harbour cruise or a whale watching trip is OK, a coastal passage isn't.

Yes there are a lot of powerboats that will spend more time at the dock. I'm not into the whole marina social set either. Plenty of powerboaters treat their boats as a holiday house - and enjoy the weekend at the marina. Nothing new there - just one more excuse for them to never leave the dock, which suits me just fine. Less people on the river is great.

If I wanted to be in the marina set, I'd be paying an extra $6,000 per annum on top of my current swing mooring ($550) and commuter boat marina fees ($1,600). That's a lot of sea miles worth of fuel.

[StevenBauer]

Sorry, Lew, I guess I'd better simmer down. I wouldn't want to jeopardize any chance I might have of getting the long dreamed of trip aboard Rita someday. She too classy to fit into that stinkpot category anyway.

My current plan is to use my Vire 12 for one more season then switch to electric for aux power.

Steven

[Lew Barrett]

Red sails in the sunset. Be careful or you get fanned with tanbark's spanker! You are welcome here anytime, Steven. I'll see you in Mystic! Here's to 1 quart per hour, seven knots over ground, and guys spending less time in the bathroom!

[PeterSibley]

Peter.....I intend to go with the Beta marine diesel. I did the drawings for a local fellow doing a re-powering and offered to do the design if he would let me make some measurements....then I got him a good sized discount on the engine.....I used soft lord mounts and the Aqua drive, then had the engine covers made 2 inches larger all around, isolated the exhaust and other heavy lines, and from 3 feet away he couldn't hear the engine and almost could not feel it...and at the helm there was no sound or feel. I had some lead foam and some other material left over from another project and wanted to try it. He left for Florida (retired) and he said he actually forgot to turn off the engine a couple of times because he forgot it was running....and it was the 60 horsepower model...

Very interesting Chuck , definitely food for thought .I have 40hp Isuzu ,ex an ancient pickup ....they may have sold in the US as a Chev Luv ? I have thought of doing the full hydraulic number using it .The silent treatment would be great .

I'm still building and had planned to use a 20hp Bukh ,again I have it ,but the hydraulic option would be very useful .No least for a real windlass .

[Lew Barrett]

I have similar treatment, soft engine mounts, (Python) drives, barium filled foam material, the whole nine yards. I would not claim them (there are two at 130 HP each) to be silent at any speed, (almost seem worst at idle) but it's pleasant enough to about ten knots, at which point you're in a relatively noisy but smooth running boat. It is a lot of trouble to go to though, no question about that. For people riding on her and not in the pilot house, good water lifts go a huge way to reducing the problem and for those enjoying the view, noise is never an issue. In the pilot house, with twelve cylinders and two gear sets whirring away 6 inches beneath your feet, you're only going to knock it down so far with the materials at hand. But 1600 rpm and 8.6 knots is very pleasant indeed. You can still very easily hear the swish of water against the hull as she moves through, and that's become my de facto standard. Twelve hours under way is no problem in respect to noise fatigue in these conditions; about as much as I ever like to run in one bite these days. You can knock it back a solid 20dB, and that makes an unbelievably big difference on a small boat. I'll state for a fact that the frequency of the sound and the overall tone of the engines has a huge amount to do with one's overall take on just what is, and what isn't, obnoxious. In this respect, some engines are better than others.

[donald branscom]

I suspect power boats between 20-50' feet will be tied up at the dock. Those over 50' or their owners won't care. No problem for me..I like to have a little room.

Some people just have to have 2 or 3 V-8 engines or they just can't have any fun. The ocean and lakes are for throwing rooster tails on each other right?

HAHaHahahahhahahhahah

[Saltiguy]

I keep my charter boat in a big modern marina where there is a SeaRay/Meridian/Boston Whaler dealership. Southwest Florida - not a blow-boat in the joint.
They have rack storage for 400 boats up to about 30foot, and wet slips for the big boys. Gasoline at the marina is presently $4.85 per gallon.
Compared to a year ago, the place is dead. The forklift guys are just sitting around even on the weekends, and the gas dock is never busy. One of the employees told me that this year fuel sales are down by more than half. Two years ago there was a waiting list for a slip or rack storage. Now, there are many empty slips and racks. Things have changed.

[dredbob]

There was a segment on the evening news the other day about a growing trend of power boat abandonment. People are looking at the cost of running the boat and just saying the hell with it, and stop paying the storage fees, etc, and the marina or boat yard ends up with an unsaleable, hard to get rid of, problem.

Bob

[Dan McCosh]

Talking to a guy in the marine engine business, he noted that the average power boat is operated for 10 hours a season--hardly a schedule that would be drastically affected by fuel costs. Seems awfully low, but that would be five weekend trips across the lake around here, and that is not too common. Slip fees, storage, insurance, etc., are another matter--if the economy goes south, these costs can provoke abandonment.

[JimD]

I would like one of these, but Mr Devlin doesn't sell the plans:

[P.L.Lenihan]

Surf Scoter hull with full length keel,different interior layout and spars/rudder......you could almost build it from the Scoter plans

Peter

[JimD]

Surf Scoter hull with full length keel,different interior layout and spars/rudder......you could almost build it from the Scoter plans

Peter

Peter, I was thinking the same thing, but perhaps its just the similar profile that makes them seem so much alike:

[P.L.Lenihan]

O.K.,you got me there Jim,but I was thinking of doing some" creative lofting" on the Surf Scoter to get the body plan just right.I notice he does have study plans for the AUK so it would not be that difficult to get a very very close copy of the real deal.
But you would have to loft................

So how is the dink comming along?

Peter