Catfish Catboat, anyone built one?

[Hespie]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I have previously built a stitch and Glue dingy. I'm interested in Harold Paysons, Bolger plans of the beach cruiser Catfish. Just wondered what the plans were like for the beginner and if anyone has photo's and thoughts on a completed one.

Thanks. Regards from Tasmania.

[JimD]

From the Instant boat website:

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I have previously built a stitch and Glue dingy. I'm interested in Harold Paysons, Bolger plans of the beach cruiser Catfish. Just wondered what the plans were like for the beginner and if anyone has photo's and thoughts on a completed one.

Thanks. Regards from Tasmania.

I haven't built a catboat but, because discussions of them come up so often I looked into the design.
The first thing that pops up is the enormous beam. That is because they were originally cargo hulls that had to operate in shallow water. Without the cargo to balance the enormous spread of sail there is usually a fair amount of ballast required. A 15 ft. catboat is much heavier than a comparable length sailboat of a more conventional shape. Even tho' they are nice and wide and looks very stabile I don't think I'd challenge the Bass Strait in one.
Since boats are three dimensional objects building a catboat of any length is a much bigger enterprise than building a conventional hull of the same length. A trailer to transport it will have to be more substantial and there is the nagging thought that catboats were never intended to go very far from shore. Since your home is surrounded by big water in every direction I think that should be a point of consideration. If you always sail on a lee part of the island and stay close in you will have everything under controll.
The plans that JimD posted are too small to read all the the details but, it's obvious this design is old. Nobody tries to glue boats together with polyester resin any more. And completing this hull with only 2 galllons of resin seems like a stretch. By my calculations it would take almost three gallons of epoxy to laminate the 38" x 10 oz. cloth with a single coat of epoxy. That single coat would leave the weave showing which can't be allowed on the outside of the hull. And that would not allow for the resin needed to laminate the 2 rolls of 3" glass tape.
Most of the folks who admire catboats look on them as "a little home on the water". You have a place to sleep and get out of the rain. That is true. But over your head is one large sail that can be very expensive. And it may require some kind of tackle to get it up and down.
There is a school of thought that larger entry-level boats should be ketch rigged. Two short masts and two modest sized sails to keep cost down. You can sail with one sail until you can afford the other. Unfortunately none of them come with sleeping accomodations. Because of the perilous state of the US economy I am considering this option.
Here is a web site that shows a similar sized blue water sailboat. I am not promoting this design but point it out because the designer lists the bill-of-materials on his plan offering. It will give you an idea of how the Bolger design compares to more recent trends in S&G design.
http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/AD1....htm?prod=AD16

[Daniel Noyes]

Cats are most at home in a short steep chop and foul current, they are light displacement centerboard hulls (looks like Bolger added a little skeg keel W/ endplate) that gain stability from form as opposed to a big chunk of lead down low, so for a given volume and accomodations they are one of the lightest and smallest boats. if you are looking for X amount of sail area the cheapest way to get it is in one sail...Also you dont have the added bother and expense of a second mast, boom, possible boomkin etc. Bolgers design should make a great boat for camp cruising.
Cats also have a reputation for being fast up wind as they can point higher than two sail boats.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[JimD]

In cross section the hull uses the tried and true five panel configuration with a flat bottom a little more than a third of the beam wide. Look at the highly successful Chebacco and the smaller and equally well recieved Tiny Cat to see more of the same. Many designers use a similar double chine set up. Catfish Beachcrusier is not especially beamy for a catboat and will not be heavier than any other comparable stout little pocket cruiser. In fact, at 15' x 6.5' her dimensions are identical to my Glen-L Minuet. CB's sail is what? 150 sq feet, perhaps? Easily managed by a single sailor and inexpensive to rig. And with a couple deep reefs I bet she could handle herself quite safely if the wind pipes up in fairly sheltered water. Obviously she's not an offshore boat. I'd ballast her with perhaps 300#s of whatever laid in her bottom. It would be removable. Sandbags to start, perhaps until you got it right and then sheet iron or lead pigs to save room.

[dredbob]

Go to the Bolger forum at Yahoo Groups, you'll be far more likely to find someone who has built one. Note that Phil Bolger has updated that design somewhat, making it better suit the intended use.

Bob

[Hespie]

Thanks Guys, valuable advice. I live in Launceston which is on the buetiful Tamar River, very suitable for the catboat type of sailboat I think. I will check Bolgers newer update of the design, Thanks.

[Hespie]

In cross section the hull uses the tried and true five panel configuration with a flat bottom a little more than a third of the beam wide. Look at the highly successful Chebacco and the smaller and equally well recieved Tiny Cat to see more of the same. Many designers use a similar double chine set up. Catfish Beachcrusier is not especially beamy for a catboat and will not be heavier than any other comparable stout little pocket cruiser. In fact, at 15' x 6.5' her dimensions are identical to my Glen-L Minuet. CB's sail is what? 150 sq feet, perhaps? Easily managed by a single sailor and inexpensive to rig. And with a couple deep reefs I bet she could handle herself quite safely if the wind pipes up in fairly sheltered water. Obviously she's not an offshore boat. I'd ballast her with perhaps 300#s of whatever laid in her bottom. It would be removable. Sandbags to start, perhaps until you got it right and then sheet iron or lead pigs to save room.

Hi Jim, How have you found Minuet? I have looked at that design previosly.

[JimD]

Hi Jim, How have you found Minuet? I have looked at that design previosly.

Its a solid little boat. No major complaints. I have learned from it that I don't like bowsprits or centerboard cases intruding in a small cabin. I do like a self bailing cockpit and if BC doesn't have one I would give it one. A design only very slightly larger can produce proper sitting headroom over settees as I'm getting too old for sleeping bag style accomodation which is what Minuet has room for. If I had to build one or the other today I would likely go for the Beachcruiser as it would be a little simpler and cheaper to rig and sail.

[JimD]

This apparently is a version of the Catfish Beachcruiser, from this website: http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/mckib/Page.html

[Hespie]

Its a solid little boat. No major complaints. I have learned from it that I don't like bowsprits or centerboard cases intruding in a small cabin. I do like a self bailing cockpit and if BC doesn't have one I would give it one. A design only very slightly larger can produce proper sitting headroom over settees as I'm getting too old for sleeping bag style accomodation which is what Minuet has room for. If I had to build one or the other today I would likely go for the Beachcruiser as it would be a little simpler and cheaper to rig and sail.

I'm having trouble finding the updated Bolger plan for Catfish? Looking at a couple of other threads on this great site I have found Meadows Bird, which looks and sounds lovely. I like the ply lapstrate method for looks, but am unsure how hard it would be to build. Also, Weekender and Minuet appeal to me. Any advice is very welcome!!

[JimD]

... Any advice is very welcome!!

In that case build one of these - roomy, stable, salty:

16' GREY SWAN

The Grey Swan is a traditional gaff cutter of multi chine hull shape with a length over deck (LOD) of only 16’ allowing much of her construction to be completed in a small work space. The original plans show her built using pre shaped ply bulkheads and for and aft girders fitted together along with her bottom hull panel into a rigid prefabricated structure. Stringers are then added to this and the remainder of the hull panels applied oversize and trimmed later. The sketch shows the original design with it’s centreboard but during the intervening years since she was first drawn up we have been asked for several modifications. Consequently the plans now show details for bilge keel and long central ballast keel variations, an alternative catboat rig and details and panel shapes for pure stitch and epoxy construction. Although only 16’ in length, she has room for 2 berths inside her cabin and a large cockpit which can also take 2 sleeping under a boom tent. LOD 16’; Beam 7’; Draft 1.15’/4.3’; Approx. wht. 1200 lbs; Ballast 300 lbs. Details are now available for a strip plank version. Plans also include details/mould shapes for strip planking the hull.

[barrington]

I have both the original and the updated plans for Catfish. As JimD says she's built exactly the same way as Tiny Cat and Chebbaco but right in the middle. Tiny Cat's too small for me and Chebbaco too large. Bolger himself says that the raised sidedecks (which extend to the full beam width) on the original drawings are not comfortable to sit against as they are too far inboard. The updated version shows much narrower sidedecks, seating and a centerboard, much more in keeping with traditional catboats. If I where to build Catfish I would use the updated sidedecks but lower them to the natural sheerline but keep the shallow keel avoiding the intrusive centerboard. With a tent over the boom I think this would make a fine camp cruiser. You must decide wether you want an 'open' boat or not. If 'not' the Selway Fisher boat would be an excellant choice.
Chris

[JimD]

... You must decide wether you want an 'open' boat or not. If 'not' the Selway Fisher boat would be an excellant choice.
Chris

I agree. Do you have enough good weather and sheltered sand beaches for an open beach cruiser?

[Hespie]

Yes, we have a great summer here, the Tamar River has a mixture of rocky and sandy shores. An open day boat would be fine I think, but on looking at the photo you posted Jim, the Catfish doesn't seem to have as nicer lines as I thought from the drawings.
I guess I was thinking it would be simpler to build, but I do like the the shape of the Weekender , Minuet and Meadow Bird with cabins. To me it looks like the weekender is an easier build? What do you guys think? For my eyes the Grey Swan doesn't look as well proportioned, but I'm a mug!

[Steve Paskey]

The plans that JimD posted are too small to read all the the details but, it's obvious this design is old. Nobody tries to glue boats together with polyester resin any more.... Here is a web site that shows a similar sized blue water sailboat. I am not promoting this design but point it out because the designer lists the bill-of-materials on his plan offering. It will give you an idea of how the Bolger design compares to more recent trends in S&G design.
http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/AD1....htm?prod=AD16

I think these criticisms are unfair. First, to my knowledge the recommendations for using polyester resin rather than epoxy are Harold Payson's doing, rather than Bolger's. And anyone -- even a first time builder -- could very easily substitute epoxy for the polyester. But cutting the laps could be a bear if you're not building from a kit.

Second, the design from Jacques Merten is aimed at a very different use ... the two boats are apples and oranges. And Mertins has his own way of doing things, which isn't necessarily typical of "recent trends in S&G design." Mertens relies very heavily on epoxy and glass for structural strength ... more so than other designers. Some like it; some don't.

Personally, I think the "lap-stitch" technique (used on kits and plans from Chesapeake Light Craft) is the height of S&G art ... it gives S&G the beauty of a lapstrake hull, and you don't have to glass the seams.

[JimD]

Yes, we have a great summer here, the Tamar River has a mixture of rocky and sandy shores. An open day boat would be fine I think, but on looking at the photo you posted Jim, the Catfish doesn't seem to have as nicer lines as I thought from the drawings.
I guess I was thinking it would be simpler to build, but I do like the the shape of the Weekender , Minuet and Meadow Bird with cabins. To me it looks like the weekender is an easier build? What do you guys think? For my eyes the Grey Swan doesn't look as well proportioned, but I'm a mug!

There are so many able pocket cruisers around 15 or 16 feet there's no reason to build a Weekender . It would be at the very bottom of my list. Really, not on the list at all. No need to make 'ease of construction' an issue as none of them are particularly difficult to build, but Meadow bird is strip planked, isn't it? Plenty of other nice open plywood boats out there too such as John Welsford's, and more from Selway Fisher such as Highlander:

[Hespie]

There are so many able pocket cruisers around 15 or 16 feet there's no reason to build a Weekender . It would be at the very bottom of my list. Really, not on the list at all. No need to make 'ease of construction' an issue as none of them are particularly difficult to build, but Meadow bird is strip planked, isn't it? Plenty of other nice open plywood boats out there too such as John Welsford's, and more from Selway Fisher such as Highlander:

I understand Meadow Bird can be built Ply Lapstrake as well, which appeals to me aestheticly. Why are you so anti the weekender? Just wondered!

[JimD]

I understand Meadow Bird can be built Ply Lapstrake as well, which appeals to me aestheticly. Why are you so anti the weekender? Just wondered!

Sounds like you should go for the Meadowbird since it is the one you seem to really fancy. I agree its a very nice looking boat and looks like it would be a good performer as well. Working up the changes necessary to build lapstrake when the plans are for strip plank will be a bit of a process. Probably a fair amount of headscratching and relatively slow going compared to straight forward build as planned. So in terms of the ease of construction factor you'd be faced with one of the least easy senarios. Sorry, but I can't talk about the Weekender anymore. Its been beat to death in numerous past threads.

Meadowbird:

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I think these criticisms are unfair. First, to my knowledge the recommendations for using polyester resin rather than epoxy are Harold Payson's doing, rather than Bolger's. And anyone -- even a first time builder -- could very easily substitute epoxy for the polyester. But cutting the laps could be a bear if you're not building from a kit.

I only mentioned it to show that the design was rather old in the S&G world. S&G is a method that has galloped along in the last 30 years.

Second, the design from Jacques Merten is aimed at a very different use ... the two boats are apples and oranges. And Mertins has his own way of doing things, which isn't necessarily typical of "recent trends in S&G design." Mertens relies very heavily on epoxy and glass for structural strength ... more so than other designers. Some like it; some don't..

The questioner asked about a shoal draft design even tho' he lives in Tasmania which has big time blue water at all points of the compass. A blue water capable design would offer a lot more versitilty in that type of venue. But, that's just my opinion.
The reason I used the Adelie was to show how extremely small Bolger's resin allocation was compared to a boat of similar size. I think the average builder would be out of resin before he ever got to covering the hull with glass.
Many of Mertens' large designs have only ¼" plywood hulls. That makes bending the planking to the mold manageable. Structurally ¼" isn't sufficient so the lamination of biax cloth to the ply makes for a hull as stout as anything you can buy. Plus the method is manageable by the average backyard builder.

Personally, I think the "lap-stitch" technique (used on kits and plans from Chesapeake Light Craft) is the height of S&G art ... it gives S&G the beauty of a lapstrake hull, and you don't have to glass the seams.

I bought Kulczicki's book when it first came out because I was interested in building in lapstrake. The Lapstitch method works but it gives away a certain amount of strength to traditional laps. The full double thickness of traditional laps are a structural element. And they only require a modest amount of epoxy to achieve. Kulczicki's laps remove wood within the lap and replace it with a much larger amount of epoxy. You are giving up something to get something else. In my view, the difference in complexity of the two methods isn't all that great and I would opt to use Tom Hill's glued-lap method.
As far as I know, nobody has ever produced anything larger than a canoe using Lapstitch. If that is so the jury is still out on the versitility of it.

[Hespie]

It's never been my intention to sail blue water, the Tamar river and also other tidal esturary areas are suitable for a shallow draft boat here in Tas. Bass Straight is a formidable bit of water and I would not venture in a small craft into it. I have sailed with friends though in these waters who are far more experienced than I. You have no doubt heard of the Sydney to Hobart race, which has had some serious mishaps over the years.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

It's never been my intention to sail blue water, the Tamar river and also other tidal esturary areas are suitable for a shallow draft boat here in Tas. Bass Straight is a formidable bit of water and I would not venture in a small craft into it. I have sailed with friends though in these waters who are far more experienced than I. You have no doubt heard of the Sydney to Hobart race, which has had some serious mishaps over the years.

I always assume a precautionary attitude when I view discussions from you folks who live under the Southern Cross. There seems to be a large quotient of adrenalin junkeys amongst you folks. Seems not week goes by that somebody down there is going to paddle a wooden horse trough around New Zealand or somesuch. Because I am a paddler I am well aware that the guy who tried to paddle from Sydney to New Zealand disappeared without a trace. And even tho' I am only a casual sailor I certainly have heard of the S to H. They should give conditional last rites to all the competitors.
Hope you get the boat you desire.