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Thread: Lofting the Brewer catboat

  1. #3431
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Tight joinery is a beautiful thing. I'll continue to rely on epoxy to absolve my sins, but I sure admire those with the skill.
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  2. #3432
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    [QUOTE=Peerie Maa;4629709]

    Does the breatshook not sit on top of the beam shelf and provide a landing for the hood ends of the deck plank?[

    /QUOTE]


    Hi, Nick!

    There will be a wide king plank let into the forward deck beams at deck level, from this beam all the way up to the stem. The breasthook will sit under the king plank, bolted to the kingplank, to the faces of each sheer clamp and with one big bolt through the stem and forestay tang.

  3. #3433
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    ^ A solid slab with a hole for the mast instead of fabricated mast partners? This looks different from what you describe
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #3434
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^ A solid slab with a hole for the mast instead of fabricated mast partners? This looks different from what you describe

    Actually, Nick, Mr. Brewer drew in solid blocking under the entire forward deck, with no mention of a breasthook. All those tie rods and long hole boring made my head ache just thinking about how it could be done. I've something different in mind.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-15-2017 at 12:32 PM.

  5. #3435
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I can't even imagine the stresses put on that foredeck structure (and whole bow structure) when the wind pipes up.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  6. #3436
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Actually, Nick, Mr. Brewer drew in solid blocking under the entire forward deck, with no mention of a breasthook. All those tie rods and long hole boring made my head ache just thinking about how it could be done. I've something different in mind.

    You gotta wonder why he bothered with any deck beams. Some of those drifts/bolts are impossible to drive as drawn. I see a big lamination, perhaps four layers, two diagonal, top and bottom for and aft, with no separate breast hook running from your big beam forward.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #3437
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I can't even imagine the stresses put on that foredeck structure (and whole bow structure) when the wind pipes up.
    It's difficult to imagine, Rich, and I would guess that the stress induced by the free-standing rig on the hull in all conditions would be impossible to calculate in any meaningful way. The weight of the rig, spars, sail, rigging, will easily top seven hundred pounds, all concentrated on the mast step and foredeck. Add a fifteen knot wind and some three foot waves and you've got some severe torque on the hull. Even if you could produce a set of numbers to represent the forces how would this translate into a timber frame structure capable of resisting the forces? The fact remains that small complex bolted-up Locust structures are not a medium that engineers capable of doing the math are comfortable designing. Fortunately, these details have been worked out by eyeball builders a century past.

    For an extreme example check out some Gill Smith boats, lightly built with a rig only slightly smaller than this boat, but with only half the mast bury that we have here. I'm always amazed that the mast doesn't tear the poor boats in two.

  8. #3438
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You gotta wonder why he bothered with any deck beams. Some of those drifts/bolts are impossible to drive as drawn. I see a big lamination, perhaps four layers, two diagonal, top and bottom for and aft, with no separate breast hook running from your big beam forward.
    Cold mold the foredeck, Nick?

    I could, but...no.

    You need a breasthook, or a least a great big chunk of wood up against the stem through which you run a bolt can bolt through the stem. That big bolt holding the top of the stem securely to the rest of the boat is an important element, not to be overlooked.
    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 08-22-2015 at 08:45 AM.

  9. #3439
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    No. Laminate the breasthook and mast partners in one piece, instead of that jigsaw of beams and chocks. Then lay the foredeck on top. The bolt connecting the breashook to the stem can run from the mast hole forward.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #3440
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Here you can see the bridge deck beams fastened in place using the welded bronze brackets on the ends. The forward beam notches over the centerboard trunk to provide lateral support for the trunk.

    With the bridge deck drawn in with ink the layout for the rest of the cockpit can move forward. The aft bridge deck beam is higher than the forward, in order to provide a slope for drainage. There will be drains in the bridge deck in the outboard forward corners.

    Projecting a line aft across the tops of the beams will determine the height of the seats. In the picture a piece of plywood has been placed to represent the seat top, its inboard edge scaled off the plans.

    The tops of the seats and the bridge deck will be one unbroken plane of epoxy/cloth-covered plywood. The slight crown of the bridge deck will follow aft into the seats giving them a slight slant outboard.

    The seats will pitch slightly forward, about a quarter inch to the foot, for drainage. Although this might seem objectionable I find that sitting slightly turned forward feels comfortable and seems a natural way to sit in this situation.

    The cockpit deck height can be fooled around with once the seat height is located. I've clamped in a few full-length deck beams with a piece of plywood on top to see how the height feels.

    The folded drop cloth on the seat is being used to represent a cushion thickness.

    The aft deck beam and blocking are waiting for the steering wheel shaft bearings to come back from the foundry and machine shop before being permanently fastened in.

    Once the deck height is determined I'll be making a set of quick and dirty luan templates, shaped boxes, actually, representing the fuel, water and waste tanks and the icebox. All these fit under the bridge deck and cockpit floor. It would be good to make them so that they could be removed if needed. Removable panels in the aft cabin bulkhead are a possibility, behind the companionway ladder on the port side of the centerboard case and the stove alcove opposite.




    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-15-2017 at 12:33 PM.

  11. #3441
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Marmalade's fuel and water tanks are under the side decks and bridge deck and a few inches of side seat each side. No obvious provision was made to get them out, sort of sawing up the decks but there must be a way to winkle them out since the water tank appears newer while the fuel tank is clearly original. It may be that with the engine out of the way and the amazing access granted by Brewer's engine hatch design, including the break in the bridge deck, the installation can be made. From weights and using unused space perspectives, those positions are great.

    The batteries are just aft of the tanks on shelving as high as the cockpit sole - good access and positioning.

  12. #3442
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim, thanks for that last photo, it's good to have an overall of the considerations. Brings up a couple of questions though.
    there seem to be several deck heights how does that work overall? I had a look back at the drawing but not large enough scale.
    Also how come you paused with the planking?

  13. #3443
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    How far along with deck and cabin structures will you go before finishing the planking? I can understand how all the sawdust and chips can now fall right to the shop floor, but I've never seen deck beams, etc., go in before planking is done. Interesting building method!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  14. #3444
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    First of all...a big "Thanks" for Ian, who was kind enough to send me a whole bunch of photos of Marmalades cockpit, complete with tape measurements and much useful commentary. I can't tell you how useful such information can be when faced with an empty hull.

    Andrew, there are two actual deck beams in the picture, the one in the foreground and the one just forward of the transom. All the deck beams will sit on the sheer clamp. Also in the photo are the two bridge deck beams, just aft of the centerboard case. These are lower than the side decks. Between the forward deck beam and the centerboard trunk are two 2 x 4's, these are temporary and keep the hull from spreading or pinching. they will be removed as soon as enough structure is built in. The planking was paused because a lot of the interior work is much easier to do with access from the outside.

  15. #3445
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    How far along with deck and cabin structures will you go before finishing the planking? I can understand how all the sawdust and chips can now fall right to the shop floor, but I've never seen deck beams, etc., go in before planking is done. Interesting building method!
    Good question, Rich.

    Due to the fact that the sawn/laminated frames retain their shape unsupported, and that the structure as it now stands needs only support from underneath, there is little to prevent the entire boat from being completed without planking.

    There is much more advantage here than the sawdust being able to exit the hull using only gravity. Take, for instance, the cockpit deck. To establish the plane of the deck a couple of deck beams need to be leveled and clamped at the correct height. As things stand, all that must be done is to run some untrimmed beams through the boat, poking out each side, and adjust them until they are in the correct position. This is done standing on the floor and involves no cutting. The same task done with the boat planked is much more involved. The work must be done from inside the planked-up hull, which, at this point is difficult enough to do, and each end would have to be trimmed.

    If those deck beams had to be fitted closely to the planking, which they don't but let's just make a point, then the lengths of the beams would have to be carefully measured, curves scribed, bevels picked up, cuts made outside the boat...and there's the very real possibility that, due to the tumblehome, they wouldn't be able to be put in place.

    This sort of difficulty would continue for the entire construction of the interior. It's a huge advantage to be able to measure and mark from outside the hull.
    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 08-26-2015 at 05:33 AM.

  16. #3446
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    That makes sense Jim. I sure spend alot of time climbing in and out of my boat fitting a piece.
    -Jim

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  17. #3447
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    The cockpit deck, lovely Teak planks near an inch thick with black caulking between, is supported from underneath by a series of athwartship beams. These beams themselves need their own support and a way to connect them to the structure of the hull. Their outboard ends terminate near the sides of the boat at a point where the hull has a lot of shape, right at the turn of the bilge where the whole structure is rising quickly towards the transom.

    Framing a cockpit deck in, say, a lobsterboat, might be an easier task. The sides of the hull might present a fairly flat surface as we move aft, onto which we could most likely spring a flat piece of timber to serve as a sort of shelf to support the ends of the deck beams. No doubt some trimming might be in order to get things to come out right, but nothing to keep us up at night.

    Jumping ahead, here's a lamination destined to become a shelf, which will be attached to the hull side with the deck beams landing on top and bolted through. In order to obtain this shape a couple of deck beams were clamped in place and some pattern stock clamped to their underside. The pattern was then scribed to the inside faces of the hull frames, against which this shelf will eventually reside. The pattern was then traced onto the piece of plywood in the picture, the thickness of the laminations deducted, and the angle irons fastened on the line of the inner face. Glue up, clamp, come back in the morning, repeat for the other side...




    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-15-2017 at 12:35 PM.

  18. #3448
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    A picture often works better than text when describing construction details.

    Here we can see the laminated timber from the previous post, now cleaned up and planed to thickness. Also shown are the three deck beams, temporarily clamped in place to establish the plane of the deck. The shelf is clamped underneath the deck beams and must now be scribed to the frames. What needs to be done is to move the shelf outboard until the top edge touches the frames. This will be done by notching the shelf around the frames.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-15-2017 at 12:37 PM.

  19. #3449
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    A picture often works better than text when describing construction details.

    Here we can see the laminated timber from the previous post, now cleaned up and planed to thickness. Also shown are the three deck beams, temporarily clamped in place to establish the plane of the deck. The shelf is clamped underneath the deck beams and must now be scribed to the frames. What needs to be done is to move the shelf outboard until the top edge touches the frames. This will be done by notching the shelf around the frames.

    Nice work, with the benefit that your beams and any hatches are no longer tied to the frame spacing.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #3450
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Looking beautiful. I love this BL. I'm enjoying working with it as well. Hard on edge tools but I like the smell of it and how hard it is. I'm used to construction grade 2x and WRC from my canoe. Hardest stuff I used up until now was maple and ash. This BL really is hard stuff.
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  21. #3451
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Nice work, with the benefit that your beams and any hatches are no longer tied to the frame spacing.

    That's a handy feature, for sure, Nick, but the way things look I'll be using the frame spacing for the deck beam spacing. The engine hatch opening is still in imaginary limbo and will remain so at least until I get the full-length deck beams in. It's kind of design-as-you-go in that respect. Do you ever do that sort of thing on submarines?










    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Looking beautiful. I love this BL. I'm enjoying working with it as well. Hard on edge tools but I like the smell of it and how hard it is. I'm used to construction grade 2x and WRC from my canoe. Hardest stuff I used up until now was maple and ash. This BL really is hard stuff.

    The Locust and Angelique I've been using so far seemed difficult to work at first, but I've become accustomed to them. The laminated pieces can be frustrating to work. A lot of the Locust is difficult to plane, not because of the hardness but because of the wild grain patterns. When you laminate up a piece there's just no "correct" way to plane it, the grain is all over the place. The glue lines don't exactly help keeping edges sharp, either.

    But we soldier on...



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-15-2017 at 01:27 PM.

  22. #3452
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    That's a handy feature, for sure, Nick, but the way things look I'll be using the frame spacing for the deck beam spacing. The engine hatch opening is still in imaginary limbo and will remain so at least until I get the full-length deck beams in. It's kind of design-as-you-go in that respect. Do you ever do that sort of thing on submarines?
    In which case one would ask why deviate from the plans that you posted, where the beams are bolted directly to the frames. The drawing shows them lapped on the sides, but they could have sat on top. Your way is stronger, but adds weight.
    No, every part of a submarine is modelled in 3D cad, and the parts linked to a Bill of Materials that links to procurement, manufacture and ultimately the Works Order for assembly and installation.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #3453
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim,

    Have you tried hitting the surface to be planed with a damp sponge or rag? Just the tiniest bit of moisture will many times ease the amount of tear-out in crazy grain.

    Looking forward to seeing how you notch the shelves into the frames.....will they be riveted?

  24. #3454
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    In which case one would ask why deviate from the plans that you posted, where the beams are bolted directly to the frames. The drawing shows them lapped on the sides, but they could have sat on top. Your way is stronger, but adds weight.
    No, every part of a submarine is modelled in 3D cad, and the parts linked to a Bill of Materials that links to procurement, manufacture and ultimately the Works Order for assembly and installation.
    Bolting the deck beams to the frames would be a poor solution. Aside from the issue of poor support, the bolt hole would seriously weaken the frames, the whole row of frames, right at the turn of the bilge. One of the section drawings does show a clamp under the beam ends. I took my liberty from that.

  25. #3455
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Jim,

    Have you tried hitting the surface to be planed with a damp sponge or rag? Just the tiniest bit of moisture will many times ease the amount of tear-out in crazy grain.

    Looking forward to seeing how you notch the shelves into the frames.....will they be riveted?
    I'll try your trick with the sponge and see how it works, thanks.

    The notching is going well, but it's a fiddly bit of work, and tedious. Stay tuned, pictures at 11.

  26. #3456
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    That's a handy feature, for sure, Nick, but the way things look I'll be using the frame spacing for the deck beam spacing. The engine hatch opening is still in imaginary limbo and will remain so at least until I get the full-length deck beams in. It's kind of design-as-you-go in that respect. Do you ever do that sort of thing on submarines?








    The Locust and Angelique I've been using so far seemed difficult to work at first, but I've become accustomed to them. The laminated pieces can be frustrating to work. A lot of the Locust is difficult to plane, not because of the hardness but because of the wild grain patterns. When you laminate up a piece there's just no "correct" way to plane it, the grain is all over the place. The glue lines don't exactly help keeping edges sharp, either.


    But we soldier on...

    This is a little of what I was talking about with putting a line on a piece of stock that I'm going to laminate - keeps the orientation as it was on the board which can be helpful for planing. That said, some boards have wild grain to star with. How much material do yo need to plane off? If you don't have much, I'd be resorting to a scraper to finish.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  27. #3457
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I always observe but never comment on this thread. Let me say that I appreciate your informative and gentlemanly style Jim. It feels like a visit to a wise and patient professor- keep it coming!

  28. #3458
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Bolting the deck beams to the frames would be a poor solution. Aside from the issue of poor support, the bolt hole would seriously weaken the frames, the whole row of frames, right at the turn of the bilge. One of the section drawings does show a clamp under the beam ends. I took my liberty from that.
    So, keeping secrets from us now eh?

    I agree about through bolting to the side being less than optimum. The better solution is to snape the ends of the beams to let them down onto the top inside surface of the frames. Then you only need a couple of screws to hold them to place. The ledge is by far the better solution due to the flexibility of layout combined with strength
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  29. #3459
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by dktyson View Post
    I always observe but never comment on this thread. Let me say that I appreciate your informative and gentlemanly style Jim. It feels like a visit to a wise and patient professor- keep it coming!
    You're setting the bar a little higher than I can leap with any consistency, Sir. I will, however, strive to continue delivering an abundance of high quality content in much the way you have come to expect, while taking the utmost care not to besmirch my new-found reputation with any hasty, ill-judged or rude comments....here or elsewhere.

  30. #3460
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I can't imagine anyone here making a rude comment, thanks for sharing this with us.

    I notice you have an engine installed, I missed it, what kind of engine is that?
    PaulF

  31. #3461
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    I can't imagine anyone here making a rude comment, thanks for sharing this with us.

    I notice you have an engine installed, I missed it, what kind of engine is that?
    Pay attention, man! That was covered about 1,000 posts ago...

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...04#post3331104
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  32. #3462
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianMCarney View Post
    Pay attention, man! That was covered about 1,000 posts ago...

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...04#post3331104
    My bad, I was distracted by something shiny or something.
    PaulF

  33. #3463
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    my bad, i was distracted by something shiny or something.
    adolab?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  34. #3464
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post

    I notice you have an engine installed, I missed it, what kind of engine is that?
    It's an unused Sabb G-10, Paul, $2500 on Ebay. It sat for ten years in another build that was finally abandoned. I have another with a similar history stashed in the shed, a spare. Between the two of them I think that I'm engined-up against all emergencies well into the foreseeable future.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-15-2017 at 01:34 PM.

  35. #3465
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Geez you go to extremes Jim, no need to remove all the frames and ribands to get that engine in is there!!

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