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Thread: Lofting the Brewer catboat

  1. #1681
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    A gutter of some kind is not impossible, but where to drain it and how do you keep it clean?
    Just pondering here.........Hope I am reading your right....

    Well even a flush hatch with a small seamline will not be bothered by leaves and large crude. But sir automobiles that have built in sunroofs, flush too has an invisible drain running from the roof out to the side panels and down and out. Why not create the larger gutter under a flush hatch and build in a flared copper tube drain outlet with polybraid running to the side and out.
    I can attest to the point that in large sportfishing boats on their teak decks, every single gutter is built into central draining system and they get a lot of water on deck from washdowns.

    They even have foward anchor lockers flushed on deck to access their anchors if need be without any real issues.

  2. #1682
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Where'd you finally find the logs?

    (Is that a hot air register I see in the floor? )

    Looking very nice Jim... Very nice!
    OH! (ETA) for your deadwood gap filling needs, look into "foundry wax". It's like slick seam but about 1/10th the price...

  3. #1683
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrleft8 View Post
    Where'd you finally find the logs?
    Upstate, near a little town called Wurtsboro. I remember stopping there one time, on the way to Woodstock, to load up on bread and jam. Same lady in the grocery, I remember the bee-hive and cats-eye glasses, don't think she recognized me though. It's been a while, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by erster View Post
    Just pondering here.........Hope I am reading your right....

    Well even a flush hatch with a small seamline will not be bothered by leaves and large crude. But sir automobiles that have built in sunroofs, flush too has an invisible drain running from the roof out to the side panels and down and out. Why not create the larger gutter under a flush hatch and build in a flared copper tube drain outlet with polybraid running to the side and out.
    I can attest to the point that in large sportfishing boats on their teak decks, every single gutter is built into central draining system and they get a lot of water on deck from washdowns.

    They even have foward anchor lockers flushed on deck to access their anchors if need be without any real issues.
    You're right, Mike, it's a problem that's been solved already in thousands of situations more difficult than this one. Still, molded fiberglass does lend itself more readily to the required shapes than solid wood does. Sea Rover had gutters on the bridge deck hinged hatches. Each hatch had gutters on three sides. The gutters were grooves in the deck framing, lined with bent copper channels. The copper was bent in a peculiar way at each corner and then two adjacent pieces soldered together. The copper was held into the grooves by rows of tacks.

    Thing is, these details can get quite fiddly and time consuming, as you know, so simple solutions are hoped for.

    As for the reefer itself, I'm envisioning a welded aluminum interior, like a fuel tank, with a marine ply outer box, glassed inside, and the cavity between the two filled with some sort of foam. The ice hatch lid could be made of a thick block of wood (Angelique?) rabbeted and fitted with a refrigerator gasket. The access hatch in the counter, a similar arrangement. Removable teak slat shelves inside.

    It's all kind of a gray area right now, but you've got to think ahead.
    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-15-2011 at 02:36 PM.

  4. #1684
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Still, molded fiberglass does lend itself more readily to the required shapes than solid wood does
    Personally I have never seem a part in any wooden boat that cannot be generated by lamination, even combining lamination with cut shapes.

    Thing is, these details can get quite fiddly and time consuming, as you know, so simple solutions are hoped for
    After several builds I have learned that not a single boat in the water these days are not filled with "While you are at it" sections and inclusions. Have you ever done any house projects that did not have a handfull of these added needs and likes?

    These types of additions and added creature comforts too are normally designed and refined in the dead of night when you are restlessly rolling over on the silk sheets.

    Right now I am dealing with a first too, actually laminating planks veneers in place for a twisted deck in a three foot run that has a dropped sheer and an elipitical six inch crown in a run of 32 inches long and 60 inches across. If I was to create the same plank using solid carved wood, the 3/8" plank would require a piece one inch thick. Boy you should the see the creative clamping too. Gross I tell you, but it worked.


    Chunks of mahogany costs and my time is free using updated methods for essentially the same look on the surface. Feel free to gasp too, epoxy on a wooden boat. Of course paint also hides a multitude of sins too.

    A person of your talents, skills and tools and some time will give you any and all added perks and fixes that you desire. Doing these projects in the build stage is quicker and for sure cleaner long term.

    [Of course you know all of these, but every now and then we all need a support group to convince us of certain obstacles] We will be watching closely over your shoulder as you make progress, hopefully living long enough to see this project float too.
    Last edited by erster; 07-15-2011 at 07:59 AM.

  5. #1685
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrleft8 View Post
    Where'd you finally find the logs?

    (Is that a hot air register I see in the floor? )

    ..
    Smar-ta$$ eh!!

  6. #1686
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by erster View Post

    We will be watching closely over your shoulder as you make progress, hopefully living long enough to see this project float too.
    Well, you know what they say, Mike, "there's little a man can't accomplish, provided he lives long enough". Still, I don't want to cut it too close.

    Here you go, Mr. Lenihan, the transom, bolted in place, at long last, level within a sixteenth, square, not quite so close, but if she sails better one one tack than the other, you know why.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:10 PM.

  7. #1687
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Permanent bolted like? Awesome. Can't wait to see the next installment of this thread.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  8. #1688
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Permanent bolted like? Awesome. Can't wait to see the next installment of this thread.
    Awesome it is, dude! And there'll be no waiting this time, we're moving right along with the old Grim Reaper breathing down our collective necks. Some of you long-time readers, the ones blessed with good memory, might remember the making of the rudder. Well, it's been cluttering up the place since, move it here, move it there, every time the place needed vacuuming, Tracey finally got fed up and made me take it out of the dining room. With the transom hung there's no reason not to hang the rudder as well.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:11 PM.

  9. #1689
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Looking great!

    Can't wait to see that bronze hardware on the rudder!

  10. #1690
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by A.Greever View Post
    Looking great!

    Can't wait to see that bronze hardware on the rudder!
    This bronze hardware, you mean?





    No, no, no, you've been around here long enough to know that's not how it works. There's a whole list of chores to do before that happy day. Some of you might notice that there's no pins in the pintles. Gotta get some pins before anything happens at all. So,today's the long awaited day when we finally get to make some pins.
    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:14 PM.

  11. #1691
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    *drumming fingers on desk and waiting with bated breath...*
    Bill R

    There was supposed to be an earth shattering KABOOM!

  12. #1692
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    The two pins are going to be made from a piece of inch and a quarter propeller shaft. Because the holes in the casting are rough and I have no way to drill them to size the pins will be turned to a size corresponding to the existing holes. The holes get cleaned up with a file. Once the pins are driven into the pintle they will be welded in on the top.

    Here is a pin in the lathe getting a chamfer turned on the end...



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:16 PM.

  13. #1693
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I was just going to offer you a 4' piece of bronze prop shaft.... I offered it to Hughman, but then I couldn't find it, but then I did.
    When are we going to start sewing the sails?

    (I think I know the lady, from up-state's sister... Her name is Ida... Ida Payne...)

  14. #1694
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Here's a pin fitted to the bottom pintle, chamfered on top to make a welding groove...







    The top pintle after welding. You welders out there, don't say nuttin'. I know it looks sloppy, but it's nice and deep, besides...








    ...once it's all sanded up, it looks just fine.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:24 PM.

  15. #1695
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Sure, I'll take that propeller shaft off your hands, Doug. Always glad to help out, you know me. You wouldn't happen to have a couple of hundred pounds of bronze you'll you've no immediate need of as well?

    Here's the happy wedding day of the top pintle and gudgeon...







    ...and the lower pintle, ready to go...







    ... and swinging in place...



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:35 PM.

  16. #1696
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    This bronze hardware, you mean?




    No, no, no, you've been around here long enough to know that's not how it works. There's a whole list of chores to do before that happy day. Some of you might notice that there's no pins in the pintles. Gotta get some pins before anything happens at all. So,today's the long awaited day when we finally get to make some pins.
    Yes, that's the hardware I spoke of!

    Did you actually weld the pins or was it soldered?

  17. #1697
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by A.Greever View Post

    Did you actually weld the pins or was it soldered?
    Welded. I was thinking of cross drilling through the barrels and pins and hammering in a three-eighths bronze pin, then I thought, "aw hell, lets just weld them and get on with it". So, there you have it.

  18. #1698
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    This is a nice little chore, fairly clean, up on sawhorses, challenging but not too much so, engaging but won't take too long, with the promise of a really cool-looking result. Hand me the router, the big one, yeah, and the saw and chisel...oh, and don't forget my lipstick. Gonna be needin' that.

    But first I've got to go knock out some cabinets for some folks.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:37 PM.

  19. #1699
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill R View Post
    *drumming fingers on desk and waiting with bated breath...*
    Mine feel too sore at the moment to do that, but believe me...
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

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  20. #1700
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Perhaps after that last picture you might have been thinking, "time to get out the tools and fit that lower gudgeon", or something along those lines. Or, maybe nothing of the kind. Actually, to get to that point we're going to have to work our way through a little pile of preliminary chores, all the while meditating on the upcoming butchery, where saws and chisels will make deep,decisive, no-turning-back cuts in our most valuable, unspoiled rudder. One wrong cut here and you'll be wishing it was last week again.

    The first pleasant task is the rounding of the front edge of the rudder, left square at the initial effort. As a spar is eight-sided to approximate the round shape, so to will we chamfer off the corners, removing a large portion of the waste in a very controlled manner.

    Here is the router depth being tuned, the object being to get three flats of equal width, seen here being measured with dividers...








    Once the depth is established with trial cuts, both sides are routed off. you want to use great care here and take a lot of shallow cuts. Looks simple, but I can think, off the top of my head, of about six ways to screw this up.








    That being done with no major slip-ups, the rest of this summers eve was spent sanding out the plane marks and shellac, prior to the first coat of CPES.



    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:42 PM.

  21. #1701
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    the rest of this summers eve was spent sanding out the plane marks and shellac, prior to the first coat of CPES.[/IMG]
    So Jim, more info please.

    Am I correct in assuming the shellac was a temporary coating just to stabilize the wood? And that it has to be fully removed prior to CPES? And what would be the result if CPES went on over the shellac?

  22. #1702
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    whats that mark in the (near) middle on the tabl... i mean rudder?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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  23. #1703
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim, a cabinetry question - is the expansion of the vertical planks width-wise likely to be so much different than the base plank lengthwise that it causes any grief down the track? I built my New Guinea rosewood kitchen bench in a (sort of) similar manner, though framed all around, and the uneven movement has opened up at the corners along the top and bottom edges. You can sort of see it in one corner in this pic':

    Larks

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  24. #1704
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    whats that mark in the (near) middle on the tabl... i mean rudder?
    Mascara?


    Cheers!


    Peter
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  25. #1705
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    whats that mark in the (near) middle on the tabl... i mean rudder?
    That's just a wayward bronze drift poking out the side of a plank. Every rudder should have one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Jim, a cabinetry question - is the expansion of the vertical planks width-wise likely to be so much different than the base plank lengthwise that it causes any grief down the track? ]
    The planks have shrunk somewhat since the time when the rudder was built and I expect them to quickly regain their former dimension once immersed. The situation is somewhat different for a rudder than a table, the rudder being held to a lower standard of beauty usually. It was built in anticipation of the large dimensional changes that are common in solid wood rudders. The vertical staves are all tenoned into the bottom piece, the mortices made loose in the fore-and-aft dimension, allowing for some movement. The rudder build is on page 11 in case you want to see. I had a look but found it somewhat disturbing as if looking at someone elses work, some nutjob.

    Quote Originally Posted by P.L.Lenihan View Post
    Mascara?


    Cheers!


    Peter
    Hi, Peter.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    So Jim, more info please.

    Am I correct in assuming the shellac was a temporary coating just to stabilize the wood? And that it has to be fully removed prior to CPES? And what would be the result if CPES went on over the shellac?
    Hi, Terry, good to see you back. How is it out there?

    The shellac left a lot to be desired as a long-term vapor barrier. It sands off easily as it doesn't penetrate very deeply into the Angelique. Lately I have been removing the red lead from the keel and replacing it with CPES, which I think is a superior vapor barrier, and it looks nicer. The front of the keel, stem and centerboard trunk bedlogs hav shown zero movement since assembly and coating with CPES.

  26. #1706
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Like shellack, CPES is not a vapor barrior. The use of shellack in curing wood is exactly that it allows vapor to pass, but slowly thus reducing checking at the endgrain. Useless for the curing except on the ends. It's non-toxic when you get to cutting and finishing and does not dull the tools.

    I like 'sealing' in CPES because it allows modest vapor movement and is an incredibly good way to protect wood from rot, especially at the endgrain which is a real problem spot for wooden boats. Just look at the lower ends of an old boat's frames or garboard hood ends.

  27. #1707
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Perhaps I'm being dense... (It would be a first though!) Why didn't you use a big round-over bit instead of a chamfer bit?

  28. #1708
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    You wouldn't happen to have a couple of hundred pounds of bronze you'll you've no immediate need of as well?
    I wouldn't call it a couple hundred pounds, maybe 75, but yeah I do. Let me know next time you're passing through.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  29. #1709
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrleft8 View Post
    Perhaps I'm being dense... (It would be a first though!) Why didn't you use a big round-over bit instead of a chamfer bit?
    I was wondering the same thing....

    looks cool seeing your bronze work getting close to mating with the wooden rudder peices. Keep up the good work.
    LBPC member since page 14, wood flour tip, green cap, no chips....

  30. #1710
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrleft8 View Post
    Perhaps I'm being dense... (It would be a first though!) Why didn't you use a big round-over bit instead of a chamfer bit?
    I imagine you'd have to have the exact right size bit then. And if its not a standard size, could be pricey. Even if it is a normal size, probably still not cheap.

    Plus this way, he gets to use his planes. Which is just better.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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  31. #1711
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Just jumping in here as a newbie, but I want to say what an enjoyment and education I've gained from reading (as yet) only the first two, and 35th, pages of this thread. Reading about catboats on Long Island takes me straight back to growing up in Riverhead, and sporting about in a 24-ft cat on Peconic Bay in the 1950s. She wasn't much of a fast-mover, but every meeting turned into a race, and some races turned rather nasty. Let's just say that when I left home for a career in the Marine Corps, I fit right in!

    Anyway, I congratulate you, Jim, on your thorough prep and diligent progress.

    Tom Carter

  32. #1712
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrleft8 View Post
    Perhaps I'm being dense... (It would be a first though!) Why didn't you use a big round-over bit instead of a chamfer bit?
    You, Doug? Never.

    In order to make this radius with a round-over bit you would need one with an inch and a half radius, a frightening beast to be sure, and one I'm certain doesn't exist, at least not in my box o' bits. Any lesser radius would offer the advantage of removing some waste, but would leave you with no indication of the shape to be achieved and a difficult surface on which to draw any meaningful marks.

    The chamfer bit, on the other hand, removes a lot of waste and leaves a clear indication of the material left to be removed. If you look at the picture you can see the radius traced onto the end grain. Also, in the middle of each flat is a line. This line is already on the surface of the cylinder we want to form on the leading edge of the rudder, in other words, any further rounding we do will not touch these lines. Only the material between the lines should be planed off. There is also a line on the flat face of the rudder, this line indicates the furthest extent of the rounding, and it too should still be visible after the shaping is finished. Any planing off of these marks and you start to lose control of the desired shape.


    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 07-13-2017 at 04:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    That's just a wayward bronze drift poking out the side of a plank. Every rudder should have one.
    Jim you probably don't realise but with that single throw away thousands of amateur boat builders world wide gasped then sighed with relief to continue happy in the knowledge it can happen to anyone.

    Mike watching and learning

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by m2c1Iw View Post
    Jim you probably don't realise but with that single throw away thousands of amateur boat builders world wide gasped then sighed with relief to continue happy in the knowledge it can happen to anyone.
    I had the same thought. Proof that he is, after all, mortal man, and not machine...

    And the rest of us thank you for it!
    - Bill T.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    There is a fact that Legend is Legend and wood is wood. That's a big solid wood assembly and, as such, the natural shrink and expand cycle is amplified, I don't think there was much more he could have done to mitigate it. I think Jim can keep his call-sign . . . for now.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

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