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Thread: Lofting the Brewer catboat

  1. #5636
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    That's the look of true concentration.

  2. #5637
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Yup, total in-the-moment concentration, that.

    You do have to be quick, no messing about with epoxy in 85 degree heat. The lamination being applied has been slathered with an epoxy/fiber/silica mix and then nicely patterned with a notched trowel. This after both sides were squeegeed with unthinned resin. The point being that it's one slippery piglet to clamp down. There's three edge stops on the mold that work, more or less, to keep the layers aligned. The piece being applied is balanced on the peak of the mold with the stainless sheet placed on top. A caul and a pair of clamps are hastily applied on center to slow down the slippage, quiclkly followed by two more cauls on the edge of the stainless, loosly applied. This stabilizes things somewhat and some sideways alignment is usually needed. After that it's just more clamps and cauls, working out from the center to the ends.

    Here's the portside lamination after some light sanding of the epoxy bleed-through and a good wetting down to highlight the nice grain figure.

    Jim


    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 08-04-2019 at 09:59 AM.

  3. #5638
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Let's do some laminating-in-place today, using the aft cockpit corner sills as a mold. It's an inside mold, unfortumately, as bending around the outside of a mold is much preferable, but it'll work well enough. These parts will be forever hidden so appearance is not of paramount concern.

    The laminations are of Locust, three by twenty-eight inches, and six of them make up about three-quarters of an inch thickness. They were resawn on the bandsaw and left with the rough surface, which ought to glue well with the epoxy.

    The area was covered in plastic packing tape to keep the squeeze-out mess to a minimum. I prefer the tape to any kind of sheet or wax paper as there's no chance of getting a fold stuck between the laminations as you clamp up, only to be discovered on unclamping. Buy the six-pack down to the WalMart.

    That's about all I can think to say about this one. 'Nother day, 'nother glue-up.

    Jim



  4. #5639
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    ... Here is the third lamination applied. I'm doing one lamination at a time, due to the size of the pieces, the amount of glue needed and the heat. I can get two on in a day. ...
    I didn't have the time to start from the beginning yet, but at least I don't want to miss out now on what's coming. This is very interesting Jim, I thought I had to leave them in the jig for 24 hours at least before adding the next set. Doing 2 a day would speed up my process tremendously!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    ... You do have to be quick, no messing about with epoxy in 85 degree heat. The lamination being applied has been slathered with an epoxy/fiber/silica mix and then nicely patterned with a notched trowel. This after both sides were squeegeed with unthinned resin. The point being that it's one slippery piglet to clamp down. There's three edge stops on the mold that work, more or less, to keep the layers aligned. The piece being applied is balanced on the peak of the mold with the stainless sheet placed on top. A caul and a pair of clamps are hastily applied on center to slow down the slippage, quiclkly followed by two more cauls on the edge of the stainless, loosly applied. This stabilizes things somewhat and some sideways alignment is usually needed. After that it's just more clamps and cauls, working out from the center to the ends.

    Here's the portside lamination after some light sanding of the epoxy bleed-through and a good wetting down to highlight the nice grain figure.

    Jim


    It's not clear to me Jim, why you squeegee the straight resin onto the surface instead of using a brush or a roller? I'm pretty convinced that with me not a small part of the resin would end up somewhere else instead of on the strips to laminate.
    fair winds, Dody
    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  5. #5640
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    seems like a nice quick way to spread a thin even layer - you might not even have to throw away the squeegee after!

  6. #5641
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Let's do some laminating-in-place today, using the aft cockpit corner sills as a mold. It's an inside mold, unfortumately, as bending around the outside of a mold is much preferable, but it'll work well enough. These parts will be forever hidden so appearance is not of paramount concern.

    The laminations are of Locust, three by twenty-eight inches, and six of them make up about three-quarters of an inch thickness. They were resawn on the bandsaw and left with the rough surface, which ought to glue well with the epoxy.

    The area was covered in plastic packing tape to keep the squeeze-out mess to a minimum. I prefer the tape to any kind of sheet or wax paper as there's no chance of getting a fold stuck between the laminations as you clamp up, only to be discovered on unclamping. Buy the six-pack down to the WalMart.

    That's about all I can think to say about this one. 'Nother day, 'nother glue-up.

    Jim


    Another clamp-a-paloosa binge-a-thon at the Legend hoop shed!

    I wonder is the missis making noise yet about the boat looking better than her china hutch?

    Glen

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    This is very interesting Jim, I thought I had to leave them in the jig for 24 hours at least before adding the next set. Doing 2 a day would speed up my process tremendously!

    I'm glad you're finding this of interest, Dody, thanks!

    It's quite warm here and if I use the fast hardener the epoxy has set up in about four hours. Knowing that it's possible to do a lamination first thing and then another at the end of the day. Keep in mind that I'm only gluing one at a time and the bend is not severe. For a tight bend with multiple laminations it might be advisable to leave it overnight. I've never left anything 24 hours, I always take the clamps off first thing in the morning from a glue up made the previous evening.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    It's not clear to me Jim, why you squeegee the straight resin onto the surface instead of using a brush or a roller? I'm pretty convinced that with me not a small part of the resin would end up somewhere else instead of on the strips to laminate.
    These are pretty big panels, Dody, about fourteen inches wide and eight feet long, so a squeegee works well. It spreads a thin coat of resin out fast. I only want to wet out the surface without leaving any puddles, which would dilute the thickened mixture that gets applied to one surface as the next step. A brush would take far too long and leave an uneven coat. A roller would be ok but then you have to clean it or toss it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jeffcapeshop View Post
    seems like a nice quick way to spread a thin even layer - you might not even have to throw away the squeegee after!

    Exactly. The squegees are a snap to clean, just have a brush sitting in a covered container of lacquer thinner.


    Quote Originally Posted by tooljunki View Post

    I wonder is the missis making noise yet about the boat looking better than her china hutch?

    Glen

    Why no, Glen. At any given time I have multiple household projects in the pipeline, some quite extensive and involved. The time I spend on the boat is never begrudged and I do my bit to keep it that way.

    Later,

    Jim

  8. #5643
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    I'm glad you're finding this of interest, Dody, thanks!

    It's quite warm here and if I use the fast hardener the epoxy has set up in about four hours. Knowing that it's possible to do a lamination first thing and then another at the end of the day. Keep in mind that I'm only gluing one at a time and the bend is not severe. For a tight bend with multiple laminations it might be advisable to leave it overnight. I've never left anything 24 hours, I always take the clamps off first thing in the morning from a glue up made the previous evening.


    These are pretty big panels, Dody, about fourteen inches wide and eight feet long, so a squeegee works well. It spreads a thin coat of resin out fast. I only want to wet out the surface without leaving any puddles, which would dilute the thickened mixture that gets applied to one surface as the next step. A brush would take far too long and leave an uneven coat. A roller would be ok but then you have to clean it or toss it.

    Exactly. The squegees are a snap to clean, just have a brush sitting in a covered container of lacquer thinner.
    Thank you Jim! I'm using 206 hardener which also is meant to cure in 4 hours but you are right of course: I'm using more layers, the radius is pretty tight and, as if this was not enough, I'm using Iroko which is very tough and doesn't like to bend at all. To be on the safe side I'll keep sticking with one lamination per day.

    Nice one with the squeegee, I've got to try this next time I've got to deal with a bit larger areas. Maybe not on my deck as the areas are quite big and roller goes pretty much faster then applying the filler afterwards with the notched spreaders, but there will be other things and lots of them.

    With the cleaning of the squeegee and the lacquer thinner ... since I read about it in the Gourgeon Book (West System) I'm using Industrial Alcohol for cleaning everything (never tried brushes as it evaporates pretty quickly). It works really good on epoxy, paint and varnish (including 2-pack), and I use it to clean surfaces in preparation for the job. It works really great, is cheaper than Acetone and several thinners, and - hopefully - less bad for our health be it to clean something off our skin or if, by accident, we forgot the protective mask. Here in Portugal they sell it in the hardware shops and it's called blue alcohol "alcohol azul" as they added some coloring to it so people wouldn't drink it by accident.
    fair winds, Dody
    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

  9. #5644
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    .... I keep waiting for some sort of satisfaction to settle in, or at least a bit of relief, having accomplished a task I'd been worrying about for some years now, but nooooo...fresh worries move to the front and occupy the vacant space between my ears.
    This is possibly the most relatable thing I've read in months.

    WRT cleaning squeegees... why involve solvents at all? Just let the epoxy cure on the squeegee, and then flex the squeegee to crack the epoxy and it falls/peels right off.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  10. #5645
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post

    With the cleaning of the squeegee and the lacquer thinner ... since I read about it in the Gourgeon Book (West System) I'm using Industrial Alcohol for cleaning everything (never tried brushes as it evaporates pretty quickly). It works really good on epoxy, paint and varnish (including 2-pack), and I use it to clean surfaces in preparation for the job. It works really great, is cheaper than Acetone and several thinners, and - hopefully - less bad for our health be it to clean something off our skin or if, by accident, we forgot the protective mask. Here in Portugal they sell it in the hardware shops and it's called blue alcohol "alcohol azul" as they added some coloring to it so people wouldn't drink it by accident.

    This is a great bit of information, Dody! Thanks for pointing it out! I must have been dozing back there in epoxy class when they covered this topic, not that it ever stopped me sticking bits together. Further reading points out that vinegar is an excellent hand cleaner for uncured epoxy. This is especially important for me because I have a terrible tolerance when it comes to solvent fumes. They affect my mood to a frightening degree, so any chance to eliminate them is welcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    This is possibly the most relatable thing I've read in months.

    WRT cleaning squeegees... why involve solvents at all? Just let the epoxy cure on the squeegee, and then flex the squeegee to crack the epoxy and it falls/peels right off.

    Yeah, right, Mike, like I'd do that.

    As for the other thing...I strive for relatability, it ain't easy but I'm glad we have this in common.



    Todays clamp fest-a-palooza is a rather anemic affair involving hardly any bend atoll. It does, however, allow the use of one badly bent and knotty piece of locust from the dwindling pile. After ripping the pieces were flipped end for end so the bow was cancelled out in the glue up.

    The piece will be resawn into two matching pieces three quarters thick. These will be used continue the backstop of the cockpit sills forward from yesterdays corner pieces to the cabin bulkhead.

    Another point of interest is the use of the packing tape over the melamine and on the cauls. You can even see the roll of tape, that's it...right there, yup, that's the stuff. Git some, do it like I do, you'll be glad you did.

    Still no end in sight.

    Jim


    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 08-05-2019 at 09:18 AM.

  11. #5646
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    You can see here the result of the last few days laminating frenzy and how it relates to the rest of the assembly. There's a piece clamped onto the aft sill which illustrates the idea, a backer to position and secure the cockpit coaming. Awaiting their turn for fitting are the two quarter round laminations that were laid up yesterday. Sitting under the fan waiting its turn is one of the resawn pieces from the glue-up this morning, the portside one is off camera.

    The idea's pretty self explanatory, it's just the fitting that's a bugger.

    Jim



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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    You're up to to challenge and will enjoy the success. Be careful not to wear a hole in your tongue doing it though.

  13. #5648
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    This is getting exciting. Loving to see a pile of parts coming together.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    love the way you do stuff Jim - if there's a difficult way to do something you're all over it and if not then you invent one. Me i woulda laminated that inside the deck and epoxy filleted it. Suppose that's the two different personalaties and building methods.
    And you can put on a show and write well to boot

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I used the packing tape non-stick yesterday on my 2 hull Cat, and can attest to it's efficacy.
    The bonus being that it acted like peel ply also leaving a smooth finish when I removed the piece of timber I had taped up and used as a giant clamp to hold a plywood scarf in place.

  16. #5651
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    You're up to to challenge and will enjoy the success. Be careful not to wear a hole in your tongue doing it though.

    Your confidence is reassuring, Navy, thanks!



    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    This is getting exciting. Loving to see a pile of parts coming together.

    It's a start, Rich, although we're gonna need a bunch more parts before we get to fitting. It's the weather, you understand, I can't do this sort of laminating once it gets cold, but fitting together, that's no problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    love the way you do stuff Jim - if there's a difficult way to do something you're all over it and if not then you invent one. Me i woulda laminated that inside the deck and epoxy filleted it. Suppose that's the two different personalaties and building methods.
    And you can put on a show and write well to boot

    Thanks, Andrew, if there's a more difficult way I'll find a reason to do it. Kidding aside, though, my old catboat, Sea Rover, had a tongue and groove stave construction for the cockpit/cabin sides which went together inside the opening. The original had the deck canvas turned up onto the cabin sides and tacked, which was then covered by a wide molding, rabbeted on the back where the canvas lay. I did the same thing with glass tape, rabbeting out the staving with a plane to make a place for the glass. This method lends itself well to vertical sides, whereas this new construction is a more shapely form. I'll put up a picture below to illustrate my point. You'll notice how the tongue and groove plus the top and bottom moldings makes for a lot of corners, which look cool but need a lot of maintenance and are troublesome to sand and paint. The new cabin will have no corners and will be one flat surface to sand and finish. Not that the tongue and groove was any way easy to build, just try running T+G around a curve, you'll see.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    I used the packing tape non-stick yesterday on my 2 hull Cat, and can attest to it's efficacy.
    The bonus being that it acted like peel ply also leaving a smooth finish when I removed the piece of timber I had taped up and used as a giant clamp to hold a plywood scarf in place.
    I'm sincerely flattered that you would imitate my method, Slacko, and pleased you found it most efficacious. I had forgotten to mention the peel ply effect and thank you for having done so.


    Thank you all for your kind replies and comments,

    Jim




    Sea Rovers stave coaming...



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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I grow weary and feel the need of a cool drink whilst polishing my chair.


    The mornings efforts have proguced the makings of a mediocre photo which I will share here in the hope of not disappointing anyone overmuch. If you can ignore the cockpit coaming sitting there, out of place and overlarge, you might see the makings of the pattern for the starboard cabin side. It's simply two pieces of half inch ply, roughly cut to the line of the deck and scarfed together. The batten clamped on the face roughly denotes the finished height of the structure. It only needs to be a rough approximation at this point as the lamination will be made with extra width to be finally battened in when the entire structure is fixed in place.


    In case you mighta thought I wuz slackin'

    Jim





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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    This is gonna be amazing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooljunki View Post
    This is gonna be amazing!

    That's a lot to live up to, Junks, about now I'd be happy enough with "pretty cool".


    Here's that plywood side template peeking out from under the first layer of veneer. This is the outside layer with the showing face upwards, looking aft. The butt is located to coincide with the cockpit bulkhead. The butt was half lapped to join the two panels, instead of being scarfed. This to provide a reasonable thickness of material that can be sanded away over time without breaking through the surface veneer.


    Jim





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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    "Jim Ledger has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Lofting the Brewer catboat - in the Building / Repair forum of The WoodenBoat Forum."

    Makes me smile every time I see this.

  21. #5656
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    the photo in #5652.... is it just me, or did this boat just double in size? damn!
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by capehorn3 View Post
    "Jim Ledger has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Lofting the Brewer catboat - in the Building / Repair forum of The WoodenBoat Forum."

    Makes me smile every time I see this.

    Thank you for that, Capehorn.


    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    the photo in #5652.... is it just me, or did this boat just double in size? damn!

    I am adding a bit of top hamper here, Mike, although less than the photo might suggest after all the trimming is done.



    Speaking of trimming, it's time to do some. The backer blocking has been fit enough to be temporarily screwed in place. The outer edges of these will need to be faired and properly angled to coincide with the inside faces of the coaming laminations. The laminations themselves have to be scribed on their bottom edge to fit snugly onto the sill. The ends of the coaming need to be trimmed plumb and scarfs cut. Having done that I'll be able to scarf the two laminations together on the centerline.

    By then it should be time for lunch and a nap.

    Jim







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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    The scribing-in of the aft coaming panel requires some patience as it's more complicated than it might first appear. The goal is to have a tight fit along the bottom edge with good contact to the sill. That's not a problem. Where it gets interesting is getting the vertical angles of the sides correct. The athwartship face needs to be plumb while the fore'n'aft face needs to be set at the proper inward slope, both of which are affected by the scribe. This actually works in my favor as the angles can be corrected as needed so long as there's sufficient height to fool around with, which there is.

    But here's where things get interesting. The corner bend is not a section of a cylinder, it's more of a coney-shaped thing. As a result the radius decreases towards the top. As extra width was added to the lamination during glue-up, the bottom of the lamination has a too-large radius for the corner, and while the flat ends can be bent slightly the radius corner cannot. Long story short, the piece has to be scribed down to that sweet spot where the radius matches the sill, wherever that might be.

    Don'tcha just love this stuff, hey? Don'tya?

    I know I do!

    Jim


    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 08-15-2019 at 06:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Makes me all tingly...

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Makes me all tingly...
    And here I thought it was just me.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post

    Don'tcha just love this stuff, hey? Don'tya?

    I know I do!

    Jim
    It's an absolute joy to watch, honestly.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    It's an absolute joy to watch, honestly.

    Why thanks, Tom! We're looking forward to your next visit and would be pleased to show you the progress in person.




    Well, folks, I've been drinking deep of the bitter dregs of defeat. The campaign has not been going quite as planned. New tactics are in order.

    There was some springback of the lamination when it was released from the mold, a minimal amount to be sure, but enough to prevent the piece from being clamped home all around. As a result I have decided to do something I've never done, kerf it. Kerfing has always seemed to me like cheating, not that I've never cheated at anything but I've never stooped that low... until today.

    The new plan calls for a nice pattern of slots, routed in with a trim router with an eighth inch straight bit, run against a straightedge, cutting two laminations deep, hopefully take some of the fight outa the thing. Once the piece is subdued and clamped in place the slots will be filled with thickened epoxy. Back on the bench the offending area can be sanded smooth and a layer of cloth applied.

    And then hidden forever...eventually anyway, but in the meantime a coat of primer might not be a bad idea. Nothing to see here, folks.

    Sadder, but no wiser...


    Jim




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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Thanks for sharing the details, Jim.

    Keep on keeping on.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  29. #5664
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Kerfing is simply another method of bending wood. I know it's not the route you wanted to take but in the end, no one will ever know except us.
    A lesser man would have done what you're doing, but not mention it. You're letting us know exactly what works and what doesn't.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim,
    Shame about that. I never had results I liked using kerfs, hope it works out for you. Maybe building the cabin front in place on the boat is a future option?

  31. #5666
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I have my fingers crossed Jim, seems like any other solution would set you back a week or two.

    I was wondering if the inside surface is gonna be painted or will there be another piece laminated to it.

    Glen

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by tooljunki View Post
    I have my fingers crossed Jim, seems like any other solution would set you back a week or two.

    I was wondering if the inside surface is gonna be painted or will there be another piece laminated to it.

    Glen
    Well, Glen, fact is I don't have enough stock for a do-over, there's only so much mahogany veneer and I'm already counting wishes as fact.


    Speaking to your second question, let me explain how the inside of the coaming will be treated. There will be vertical tongue and groove staving all around, covering the coaming and extending from the cap on top down to the deck. Along the sides the inside surface will angle back to provide a comfortable seat back. Here the T+G will only contact the coaming at the top, the deck at the bottom, with maybe an intermediate support. As the T+G rolls around the aft corners it will roll back to plumb as it crosses the aft section, to be interrupted by the wheelbox amidships.

    Todays sins will be buried deep.

  33. #5668
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    With it all being buried beneath the T&G, no harm, no foul.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Thanks for sharing the details, Jim.


    Kevin

    It's always a pleasure, Kevin.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Kerfing is simply another method of bending wood. I know it's not the route you wanted to take but in the end, no one will ever know except us.
    A lesser man would have done what you're doing, but not mention it. You're letting us know exactly what works and what doesn't.

    A lesser man, you say, Rich? Just how much lesser are we talking here? A lot lesser? Prolly not, cause I was sitting on the fence a while and coulda gone either way




    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Jim,
    Shame about that. I never had results I liked using kerfs, hope it works out for you. Maybe building the cabin front in place on the boat is a future option?


    That front piece has yet to come into sharp focus, Navy, and meanwhile I can project all kinds of wishful thinking into that fog bank. We'll see when we get there, still plenty more time to..ahem...learn some more lessons.

    As for the kerfing, what I want to avoid is the telegraphing of the kerfs onto the outside layer. This would be exacerbated by making deep kerfs quite far apart. Close-spaced shallow kerfs would stand a better chance of being undetectable. There should be no strength issue as those corners are the strongest part of the whole assembly to begin with and the epoxy and cloth will go a long way towards tying things back together.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    With it all being buried beneath the T&G, no harm, no foul.
    That's what I'm counting on, Rich, that it'll be invisible under the gingerbread.




    Jim

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Well, Glen, fact is I don't have enough stock for a do-over, there's only so much mahogany veneer and I'm already counting wishes as fact.


    Speaking to your second question, let me explain how the inside of the coaming will be treated. There will be vertical tongue and groove staving all around, covering the coaming and extending from the cap on top down to the deck. Along the sides the inside surface will angle back to provide a comfortable seat back. Here the T+G will only contact the coaming at the top, the deck at the bottom, with maybe an intermediate support. As the T+G rolls around the aft corners it will roll back to plumb as it crosses the aft section, to be interrupted by the wheelbox amidships.

    Todays sins will be buried deep.
    So, you can alternate the cedar and monogamy as suggested.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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