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Thread: Lofting the Brewer catboat

  1. #5426
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Bowline

  2. #5427
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Thad View Post
    Bowline
    That is one end of it, but what of the other end if you moor by passing the line through a ring on the pier and want to tend the moorings from the cockpit?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #5428
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I think as long as the cleats are behind the horse they shouldn't present a big problem. I guess waiting until the boom is rigged and checking where the sheets drag would let you know the best placement. It's not like they need to be mounted anytime soon.

  4. #5429
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I really enjoy watching all the fit and finish work, with tiny shavings throughout.

  5. #5430
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Have you tried Standard Fastenings in New Bedford?
    Their website says the have larger oval head silicon bronze screws.

  6. #5431
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorB View Post
    I really enjoy watching all the fit and finish work, with tiny shavings throughout.

    Then I have just what the doctor ordered, two impossible miters on both ends of a curved stick with zero chance of error.

    The piece of angelique for the transom rub rail was roughed out a few years back when it became apparent that the stack of lumber was not without end and that I'd better get out my important pieces while I still could.

    The 4x4 in the photo is being used to clamp the toe rail above.


  7. #5432
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I came across this image.

  8. #5433
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Then I have just what the doctor ordered, two impossible miters on both ends of a curved stick with zero chance of error.

    The piece of angelique for the transom rub rail was roughed out a few years back when it became apparent that the stack of lumber was not without end and that I'd better get out my important pieces while I still could.

    The 4x4 in the photo is being used to clamp the toe rail above.

    Jim,
    Will you use a small back saw or do you prefer some other type, like a Japanese pull saw?

  9. #5434
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Then I have just what the doctor ordered, two impossible miters on both ends of a curved stick with zero chance of error.

    The piece of angelique for the transom rub rail was roughed out a few years back when it became apparent that the stack of lumber was not without end and that I'd better get out my important pieces while I still could.

    The 4x4 in the photo is being used to clamp the toe rail above.

    My palms get sweaty just thinking of making those cuts. Good luck!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  10. #5435
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Cut them fat and then the old lipstick and block plane game? Not sure how I'd go about making those cuts.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  11. #5436
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I don't know that I've ever seen a rubrail on a transom before. It would seem that huge rudder would stop the transom from ever rubbing against anything.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  12. #5437
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Two mitres, last piece of good wood..Id make two short pieces from scrap; 16, maybe 18 inches long, same profile as the rail, and mitre their ends to fit, being very careful to keep them aligned 'zackly where the finished piece will end up. Temporarily fix them to the transom and measure the distance between the butt ends. Now you have a pattern.....works for tricky built up crown mouldings that must be coped.....

  13. #5438
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Then I have just what the doctor ordered, two impossible miters on both ends of a curved stick with zero chance of error.

    The piece of angelique for the transom rub rail was roughed out a few years back when it became apparent that the stack of lumber was not without end and that I'd better get out my important pieces while I still could.

    The 4x4 in the photo is being used to clamp the toe rail above.

    It occurs to me that the rub rails tumble home. That means that the mitres will also tumble home. So clamping the transom rub rail under the side rubrails and sawing the mitre will leave the transom piece over long. Then careful trimming will allow it to be slid upwards to place.
    If that idea works for you try it with a test piece before cutting your angelique.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #5439
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Jim,
    Will you use a small back saw or do you prefer some other type, like a Japanese pull saw?
    I'll be using a pull saw.

    I've never had much luck with the sawing-a-kerf-between-a-miter method of fitting. At best I end up with a ragged near-fit. I suppose it works in situations where paint and filler can be applied, but for finish work..not for me.

    The problem, as I see it, is that on one side of the joint at least you'll be sawing the wrong way against the grain and the saw will try to go off course. In this instance you would have to saw against the grain on both pieces, which is not a promising way to start a critical cut.

    Then there's the issue of sawing completely through while not buggering up the finished surfaces underneath...one moments carelessness...that ever happen to you?

    Just sayin' as they say, I'm sure plenty of you have mastered the technique. That's nice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    My palms get sweaty just thinking of making those cuts. Good luck!

    Rich, there are fits to be made that I dread for years in advance. I don't even know why I like this stuff, I really shouldn't. It's good though when it comes out well in the end...but who knows what went into it? Only the handful of folks who try the same thing and in the general population that's a small percentage and getting ever smaller.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Cut them fat and then the old lipstick and block plane game? Not sure how I'd go about making those cuts.

    Basically, yes, Dan, using carbon paper instead of lipstick. The block plane can be used on the loose piece, but the ends of the toe rails have to be worked with a chisel because a plane can't get in there. Forget about sawing to a line, it is fiendishly difficult to plot where the line oughta be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    I don't know that I've ever seen a rubrail on a transom before. It would seem that huge rudder would stop the transom from ever rubbing against anything.
    Some catboats have the transom rub rail, some don't. That pointed edge of the transom toe rail is vulnerable to an impact of any kind. I think the rub rail will have a nice appearance as well as offering protection when backing into pilings. Not that I ever have, mind you.

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Two mitres, last piece of good wood..Id make two short pieces from scrap; 16, maybe 18 inches long, same profile as the rail, and mitre their ends to fit, being very careful to keep them aligned 'zackly where the finished piece will end up. Temporarily fix them to the transom and measure the distance between the butt ends. Now you have a pattern.....works for tricky built up crown mouldings that must be coped.....

    This is about what I've come up with after several fumblings and false starts. It should have been obvious from the start, maybe I'm out of practice, I dunno.




    Here's the situation, pay no attention to those pencil lines...they're wrong. Go ahead and even try drawing the miter line on that. Bring your thinnest ruler with ya.

    Another point needing consideration, the cross sections of the side and aft rub rails are quite different. The transom's raking aft while the sides are tumbling home, yet the finished shape must meet to allow the brass band to wrap neatly around the corner.

    As an analogy, you can make a roof hip between roofs of differing slopes but you can't expect the shingle courses to match.


    Have a good day!


    Jim


  15. #5440
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It occurs to me that the rub rails tumble home. That means that the mitres will also tumble home. So clamping the transom rub rail under the side rubrails and sawing the mitre will leave the transom piece over long. Then careful trimming will allow it to be slid upwards to place.
    If that idea works for you try it with a test piece before cutting your angelique.
    That's the saving feature here, Nick, I'm working upward into a diminishing space, which allow cutting long and trimming. That and the fact that there's no curve across the transom.

    Jim

  16. #5441
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    Have you tried Standard Fastenings in New Bedford?
    Their website says the have larger oval head silicon bronze screws.

    Thanks, Jim, I'll check it out. And thanks for the image of the cleat boots, it's much like I had in mind, except I imagined mine in Mahogany with braided sennit.

  17. #5442
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Thanks, Jim, I'll check it out. And thanks for the image of the cleat boots, it's much like I had in mind, except I imagined mine in Mahogany with braided sennit.
    How about bungee in sennit jacket?

  18. #5443
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim,
    Why not just use butt joints and let the side rail run past the transom piece. If you laminate a piece on the back of the transom piece you can probably make all the dimensions line up and hand plane as necessary to true up the angles.

  19. #5444
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Thinking out loud.....
    Take a piece of scrap and mill it to the same thickness as the transom rail but wider; wide enough that it extends an inch or so higher and lower than the side rail. Be sure that the vertical faces are oriented identically to the transom rail. Miter the end of the scrap so its butt end fits the back edge of the side rail tight as can be, furniture fit. Fasten in place.
    Scribe the vertical intersection on the back of the side rail. Now you have the point of the miter in the vertical plane and the scrap can be used as a guide for your pull saw to make that vertical cut. Cut the side rail. Remove the scrap piece.
    Connect the upper end of the cut with the transom top and bottom and scribe the lines. Now you have the shape of the miter.
    Staying parralel to the face of the transom make a series of vertical kerfs that connect the upper and lower lines, staying a hair shy of the line.
    Knock out the waste and pare to the lines.

  20. #5445
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Goulet Enterprises for the screws: 860-379-5419.
    Re: the hip roof analogy, Friends of mine were building a house with overhanging hips, hips with different pitches. Working on the first corner they put it together and took it apart 3 times before they got it to look right. Later they thought they should write an article for Fine Homebuilding describing the process exactly as it had proceeded, as though that is the proper way to do it, in proper magazine style. Didn't do that of course.

  21. #5446
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Here's two coats of CPES on the undersides of the parts prior to final assembly...



  22. #5447
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Wish I could see how the improved materials and techniques your using will extend the life of your boat and what the ultimate longevity will be. I might have to live another 80 to 100 years to find out the answer.

  23. #5448
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Wish I could see how the improved materials and techniques your using will extend the life of your boat and what the ultimate longevity will be. I might have to live another 80 to 100 years to find out the answer.
    Or longer!

  24. #5449
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Wish I could see how the improved materials and techniques your using will extend the life of your boat and what the ultimate longevity will be. I might have to live another 80 to 100 years to find out the answer.
    It will be more dependent on correct storage, use and maintenance for that type of timeframe.

    Lovely work Jim!!

  25. #5450
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Here's two coats of CPES on the undersides of the parts prior to final assembly...
    Never tried CPES but certainly heard quite about about it on this forum, better than shellac or say MAAS low viscosity? I assume you will be bedding these in something?

  26. #5451
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Geftb View Post
    It will be more dependent on correct storage, use and maintenance for that type of timeframe.

    Lovely work Jim!!
    That goes without saying. Lots of things affect the lifespan of a boat.

  27. #5452
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    "Here's the situation, pay no attention to those pencil lines...they're wrong. Go ahead and even try drawing the miter line on that. Bring your thinnest ruler with ya."

    Got me wondering if one could have used a preacher to establish the miter line on those side rails? / Jim

  28. #5453
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    "Here's the situation, pay no attention to those pencil lines...they're wrong. Go ahead and even try drawing the miter line on that. Bring your thinnest ruler with ya."

    Got me wondering if one could have used a preacher to establish the miter line on those side rails? / Jim

    Jim, I'm sure there's a better way than the one I used. I'm not familiar with a type of preacher that would have helped but I stand ready to learn.

    Here's a picture of the portside joint, looking across the transom, sheerplank and rubrail on the left.

    The miter makes a nice "hip" on the top surface, where it is most visible. The flat for the brass band and the under surface of the rails miter also, but the joint cannot coincide with the corner of the faces. This is because of the difference in cross-sections of the side and transom rails. The transom rail gets sniped off to the correct contour, the brass band hiding one errant joint while the underside is not too visible. Eventually there will be a small rounding-off of the corner to allow the brass to bend around a radius, which will result in some rounding of the underside, which will have the effect of concealing the continution of the errant miter line...somewhat.

    The transom rail needs further shaping here, some has to come off the underside, but the miter is where it has to be.



    Jim


  29. #5454
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    ^ That suggests that your brass half round may need to twist as it bends round the corner. Could be an awkward bit of metal bashing. Or cut and braze.
    Or may be not as the end of the cross guard mitre is planed off to fair with the rub rail. Possibly
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #5455
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Another instance where a picture is worth a thousand words! The preacher I had in mind and the only one with which I have experience would mark a change to the bevel cut you have used to the more vertical one as represented by the face of the transom rail. This cut would leave a hole at the underside of the transom rail at the face of the transom.......I think. So not an option.

    Sorry if I'm a distraction Jim but your approach to this process of documenting your build can be mesmorising. Wonderful stuff! / Jim

  31. #5456
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    That goes without saying. Lots of things affect the lifespan of a boat.
    I had a 7 hour stopover in an airport last night. I was looking for someone to talk to.

  32. #5457
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Skegemog View Post
    Never tried CPES but certainly heard quite about about it on this forum, better than shellac or say MAAS low viscosity? I assume you will be bedding these in something?

    I'm not familiar with low viscsity epoxy, but it sounds interesting. I believe that CPES is superior to shellac as a sealer, if only for the fact that it's a catalyzed resin and cannot be dissolved. Unfortunately, it's much more pungent than shellac and precautions must be taken prior to application, ventilation, organic vapor mask, and so on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ^ That suggests that your brass half round may need to twist as it bends round the corner. Could be an awkward bit of metal bashing. Or cut and braze.
    Or may be not as the end of the cross guard mitre is planed off to fair with the rub rail. Possibly

    Stay tuned for this one, Nick. The half oval brass can't be bent around the corner while still laying flat on the rail.


    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Thinking out loud.....
    Take a piece of scrap and mill it to the same thickness as the transom rail but wider; wide enough that it extends an inch or so higher and lower than the side rail. Be sure that the vertical faces are oriented identically to the transom rail. Miter the end of the scrap so its butt end fits the back edge of the side rail tight as can be, furniture fit. Fasten in place.
    Scribe the vertical intersection on the back of the side rail. Now you have the point of the miter in the vertical plane and the scrap can be used as a guide for your pull saw to make that vertical cut. Cut the side rail. Remove the scrap piece.
    Connect the upper end of the cut with the transom top and bottom and scribe the lines. Now you have the shape of the miter.
    Staying parralel to the face of the transom make a series of vertical kerfs that connect the upper and lower lines, staying a hair shy of the line.
    Knock out the waste and pare to the lines.

    Thanks for that, willin'. The actual fitting was noting so straightforward, there was a lot of back and forthing, but here's the simplified version.

    The miter was drawn on the top of the side rails and roughly cut with a pull saw, leaving room for adjustment. A sample block was made on the chop saw of the ends of the transom rail, estimating the angle. The idea was to refine the side rail ends to their final dimension and then fit up the transom rail to them. The side rails had to be chiseled in. A series of refinements achieved the correct angle on both the sample blocks and the rail ends. At this point the transom rail ends were cut on the chop saw to match the angles of the sample blocks. First one end was fitted and then the next.

    Here's a roughly chopped rail end being offered up. I know that this picture doesn't fit into the above narrative, but hey.

    Jim



  33. #5458
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Nice.

    Stay tuned for this one, Nick. The half oval brass can't be bent around the corner while still laying flat on the rail.
    Jim...You gonna cast a custom connector piece?!

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  34. #5459
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Nice.



    Jim...You gonna cast a custom connector piece?!

    Kevin
    If it were I, I would bend them out of flat stock copied from a card template, and then file the half round section.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #5460
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Nice.



    Jim...You gonna cast a custom connector piece?!

    Kevin
    Or carve it from the solid...
    Which is easier than it sounds.

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