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Thread: Lofting the Brewer catboat

  1. #5146
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    With the large radius on each end I don't see how the block can hang up. Jim I think you did a fine job of designing the horse to fit a traditional boat.

  2. #5147
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Turks heads, Nick...as stoppers on a catboat mainsheet? Need to be pretty tight, they would.


    Jim
    You should be able to make a Turks head grip, especially using stronger synthetic marline that won't snap on you as you snug it up. The beauty of the Turk's head apart from its boatyness is that you can put them on the bendy bit. Thereby maximising the useful width of the horse.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #5148
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Exactly. Cheers.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I'm having a hard time getting a sense of this thing from the photos.. is it 5' long? 8' long?
    I think making it as long as possible (while still looking right) is the thing to do, adding stop-collars later will be as easy as you describe.

    The bends look perfect. I don't think you lose anything when you lose that 3/4" of height.

    Thanks as always for taking us down the rabbithole with you.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  5. #5150
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    With the large radius on each end I don't see how the block can hang up. Jim I think you did a fine job of designing the horse to fit a traditional boat.

    Thank you, Sir!


    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You should be able to make a Turks head grip, especially using stronger synthetic marline that won't snap on you as you snug it up. The beauty of the Turk's head apart from its boatyness is that you can put them on the bendy bit. Thereby maximising the useful width of the horse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thad View Post
    Exactly. Cheers.

    Thanks, Nick and Thad, I shall have to get practicing my Turks Heads. Fortunately, there's still time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    I'm having a hard time getting a sense of this thing from the photos.. is it 5' long? 8' long?
    I think making it as long as possible (while still looking right) is the thing to do, adding stop-collars later will be as easy as you describe.

    The bends look perfect. I don't think you lose anything when you lose that 3/4" of height.

    Thanks as always for taking us down the rabbithole with you.

    You're welcome, Mike. The horse is five feet wide and is made from seven-eighths bronze rod.

  6. #5151
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Just to add - I don't have stops on Masina's traveller. I have blocks at each end, with lines running to the mainsheet block slider. A system like that, with blocks or cleats could easily be added on if it proves necessary. By the way, I agree with the 'see how it goes' approach too. I also like the idea of keeping the horse low.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Just to add - I don't have stops on Masina's traveller. I have blocks at each end, with lines running to the mainsheet block slider. A system like that, with blocks or cleats could easily be added on if it proves necessary. By the way, I agree with the 'see how it goes' approach too. I also like the idea of keeping the horse low.

    Rick
    Rick, I'm thinking that most catboat use a very basic horse arrangement like the one here. I'm confident that there will be no binding issues, after having put the ring on the bar and trying it out. Thanks for the input, as always.



    Having "adjusted' the flanges so that they sit flat on the deck while supporting the horse in a plumb attitude, I welded them on for good. I put on a pile of weld and then contoured the weld into shape with a carbide burr. Seen here is the filing stage where the smaller variety of lumps get dealt with.

    Jim


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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    That horse is impressive work indeed. Nice job fairing the rod into the base. I wish I had half your skills. I'm having a rudder/rudder stock welded up by a local guy for my fantail launch but I doubt it'll have the soul of your workmanship.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  9. #5154
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    That horse is impressive work indeed. Nice job fairing the rod into the base. I wish I had half your skills. I'm having a rudder/rudder stock welded up by a local guy for my fantail launch but I doubt it'll have the soul of your workmanship.

    Thanks, Rich. Fairing welded joints, in bronze, particularly, is a simple and satisfying task, using a rotary burr and files. Welding, well, that takes some practice, but you don't have to be that good if you're going to fair the welds, so long as they're melted in well. Casting, that's a whole 'nother chapter, and most folks do well enough making patterns for casting in a foundry. I learned these things so I could avoid talking to strangers about my project.

    I ain't gonna bore youse all no more with the traveller, just one last picture before moving on to what I oughta be doing. I'll leave it to the scholars among us to argue the proper name, but not here, okay?.

    Jim.



  10. #5155
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I've probably missed the post Jim, but is the horse silicon bronze ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  11. #5156
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Thanks, Rich. Fairing welded joints, in bronze, particularly, is a simple and satisfying task, using a rotary burr and files. Welding, well, that takes some practice, but you don't have to be that good if you're going to fair the welds, so long as they're melted in well. Casting, that's a whole 'nother chapter, and most folks do well enough making patterns for casting in a foundry. I learned these things so I could avoid talking to strangers about my project.

    I ain't gonna bore youse all no more with the traveller, just one last picture before moving on to what I oughta be doing. I'll leave it to the scholars among us to argue the proper name, but not here, okay?.

    Jim.


    Hey, that thing is gonna hold your beach towel just fine.

    I think the flare is sweet. The bases look like little trumpet ends smooshed into the deck.

    You’d better knock if off, or you’re going to run out of boat building project! What is next, anyway? What bit ARE you “supposed” to be doing?

    I look forward to every step.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    That must have been a royal pain to get the flange angles perfect... looks 200 years old. That's a compliment BTW.

    Following avidly from an embarrassed distance...

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I've probably missed the post Jim, but is the horse silicon bronze ?

    Yes, Peter, silicon bronze. That's an interesting idea you have casting small parts for sale online. I wish you well with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Hey, that thing is gonna hold your beach towel just fine.

    I think the flare is sweet. The bases look like little trumpet ends smooshed into the deck.

    You’d better knock if off, or you’re going to run out of boat building project! What is next, anyway? What bit ARE you “supposed” to be doing?

    I look forward to every step.

    Peace,
    Robert

    The trumpet angle was definitely on my mind as I was filing away, Rob, a goal to pursue, a look to strive for, any dim kind of mental picture to urge the furiously scrubbing fingers this way or that. It still needs more filing, especially the other end, but I have to put it away, I can't look at it because all I see is the lumps. Come back in a month and you see a thing with fresh eyes and the work flows from there.

    What I'm "supposed" to be doing at any given moment is a construct of my own imagination that I think up afresh just to ruin the enjoyable and constructive moments I spend here.


    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    That must have been a royal pain to get the flange angles perfect... looks 200 years old. That's a compliment BTW.

    Following avidly from an embarrassed distance...

    It wasn't to bad getting the angles right. Couldn'ta took more than a mornings work...spread over a coupla days. I'm thinking of brass work you might see on old steam engines. Polished as some of it was, there was no shortage of casting flaws and tool marks in evidence, if you looked close. These flaws gave the pieces a texture and life that perfection wouldn't. So, thanks.


    Jim





    Lets get back to the toerails. Fust, lets deal with these loomps...



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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I'm betting you know about these Jim, but just in case and perhaps for the benefit of others...
    (note 20,000 rpm-ish)


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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Wonder how it would work if you capped those loomps with a 1/4" thick crook? / Jim

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    The small flaws are what give it the human touch. I tiled a backsplash yesterday and I could have used those little plastic X things to make sure every line was perfect. It would look horrible that way. The grout lines will be uneven and just a little off and they'll look better for it. Those trumpet shapes are sweet looking. I bet you'll come back to them in a months time and just continue on instead of taking a new view of things and making major changes.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I recall an art teacher at college who specialized in pottery. He would never make anything perfectly symmetrical or overly finished; his work had to show the human touch. And of course it was better for that.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quite lovely Jim. Nice work.
    Chuck Thompson

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post


    Superb!

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    Wonder how it would work if you capped those loomps with a 1/4" thick crook? / Jim

    It would probably look real nice, Jim., but I don't have any suitable crooks. The Angelique is all long lengths of absolutely straight grain with no knots. No worries, though, we will proceed despite the disadvantages and come out with something reasonably satisfactory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    The small flaws are what give it the human touch. I tiled a backsplash yesterday and I could have used those little plastic X things to make sure every line was perfect. It would look horrible that way. The grout lines will be uneven and just a little off and they'll look better for it. Those trumpet shapes are sweet looking. I bet you'll come back to them in a months time and just continue on instead of taking a new view of things and making major changes.
    Thanks, Dan. Some tiles look their best with an uneven grout line, handmade Mexican tiles, for instance, and some not. Some unevenness and flaws go a long way to making a piece more "friendly" feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I recall an art teacher at college who specialized in pottery. He would never make anything perfectly symmetrical or overly finished; his work had to show the human touch. And of course it was better for that.

    Good point, Dave, pottery, hand thrown pieces anyway, need to be made quickly and with a sure touch. Too much fussing about will spoil the piece.


    Quote Originally Posted by chuckt View Post
    Quite lovely Jim. Nice work.

    Thanks, Chuck, glad you like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skegemog View Post
    Superb!

    Thanks, Skeg, that's very kind.





    I was fooling around with the quarter knees for a while, scribed them down to the deck, rough trimmed the ends. They look good, but there's some other pieces need gluing up before it gets cold.


    Summayouse might recall the dorade boxes and face frames on the hanging lockers. They've been patiently waiting their turn, and now that the deck is finished they can be assembled. Before that happens I need to make three small laminations, two to go inside the lockers and one to fill the space between the lockers, covering the deck beam and deck edge. These laminartions will extend higher than the deck and be a foundation for the cabin side.

    Here they are after some initial fitting. The central lamination is three lams thick, onto which will be glued some of the quarter inch veneer for the cabin side. This is a highly visible element in the cabin and should match the cabin sides. The two smaller outer laminations will be inside the lockers, not be readily visible, and will be painted.

    Jim



  21. #5166
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    My daughter stops by a couple of times a year to mine my boathouse and shop for Instagram fodder. Gotta admit she takes a nice photo, sees things I overlook with fresh eyes.

    I'll just put these four up without comment...

















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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    She has a good eye, Jim, I like the composition of the 3rd photo !!!




    Rick

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye54 View Post
    She has a good eye, Jim, I like the composition of the 3rd photo !!!

    Rick

    Thanks, Rick, I enjoyed that one myself.


    Here's those three laminations being fitted. Fitting pieces where both ends need scribing can be a challenge. The reason the face frames were left loose was for this very reason. With the face frames out of the way it was simple to scribe the outer corners. Having done that the inner ends of the outer laminations could then be trimmed to fit up against the inside of the face frames. Removing one face frame allows one end of the center lamination to be fitted up to the opposite face frame. Fitting the other end is just a matter of some nibbling, a little at a time.

    The initial cuts were sawn with a Japanese saw, but the actual fitting of the ends was done with a belt sander, sanding up to the scribe line.

    Jim


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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Thanks, Rick, I enjoyed that one myself.


    Here's those three laminations being fitted. Fitting pieces where both ends need scribing can be a challenge. The reason the face frames were left loose was for this very reason. With the face frames out of the way it was simple to scribe the outer corners. Having done that the inner ends of the outer laminations could then be trimmed to fit up against the inside of the face frames. Removing one face frame allows one end of the center lamination to be fitted up to the opposite face frame. Fitting the other end is just a matter of some nibbling, a little at a time.

    The initial cuts were sawn with a Japanese saw, but the actual fitting of the ends was done with a belt sander, sanding up to the scribe line.

    Jim

    It took me a minute to find what the heck you were even talking about in this picture.
    That looks snazzy, Yo.
    I am putting off installing the second set of boxes on my project because all the other joints are so good, and one screw up now means I have to remake three new joints...

    I really enjoy the finicky fitting of wee bits, though. Anything that will shut up my stupid brain for a few peaceful moments...

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    That horse is impressive work indeed. Nice job fairing the rod into the base. I wish I had half your skills. I'm having a rudder/rudder stock welded up by a local guy for my fantail launch but I doubt it'll have the soul of your workmanship.
    Jim, everything Rich Jones said except the rudder/rudderstock and fantail bit and a question, please. You are obviously capable of fabricating parts both by welding and casting. I get that some shapes (may only) lend themselves to casting and with others it's readily apparent welding is the first choice. What drives your choice of method when both will serve? Thanks.

  26. #5171
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I'm on a short hiatus from the catboat while I wrap up a different piece of work. I sometimes try juggling two jobs but I think that each one suffers from a lack of complete focus. I know this, but nevertheless I still do it. Eventually I give up one for the other, usually the boat is given up in favor of the more pressing job. In this case I am installing radiant heat in the floor of our house, a huge, repetitive, dirty, boring effort that will pay big dividends...eventually. Thing is, we are, at the moment without heat, baseboard radiators, boiler, piping, all gone, and it ain't getting any warmer out. Such is the life I have chosen. As always, the boat will wait for me.

    Rob, I sometimes fall short of the mark in my narrative and for this I apologize. There is also a certain amount of hopping around the boat that might seem disjointed to a casual observer but that's just me. I envy those that are able to work in a more linear fashion, but, hey, you have to work with the hand you're dealt. I'm just not wired that way.

    Wiley, you ask a good question. I'm a novice when it comes to metalwork so anything I might say should be taken as the mutterings of such. I'm going to give you a big ramble on the subject in a few subsequent posts. I'm mulling over some ideas now, but haven't the time to write them out. I'm off to the crawl space to lay on my back to grind nails poking through the subfloor.


    Because I still can.


    Jim

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    I'm on a short hiatus from the catboat while I wrap up a different piece of work. I sometimes try juggling two jobs but I think that each one suffers from a lack of complete focus. I know this, but nevertheless I still do it. Eventually I give up one for the other, usually the boat is given up in favor of the more pressing job. In this case I am installing radiant heat in the floor of our house, a huge, repetitive, dirty, boring effort that will pay big dividends...eventually. Thing is, we are, at the moment without heat, baseboard radiators, boiler, piping, all gone, and it ain't getting any warmer out. Such is the life I have chosen. As always, the boat will wait for me.

    Rob, I sometimes fall short of the mark in my narrative and for this I apologize. There is also a certain amount of hopping around the boat that might seem disjointed to a casual observer but that's just me. I envy those that are able to work in a more linear fashion, but, hey, you have to work with the hand you're dealt. I'm just not wired that way.

    Wiley, you ask a good question. I'm a novice when it comes to metalwork so anything I might say should be taken as the mutterings of such. I'm going to give you a big ramble on the subject in a few subsequent posts. I'm mulling over some ideas now, but haven't the time to write them out. I'm off to the crawl space to lay on my back to grind nails poking through the subfloor.


    Because I still can.


    Jim
    No, Brother. I meant I couldn’t even discern where you were fitting those parts! They look like they’re already part of the structure. I was confused that you were fitting them, as they look already well fitted.

    As far a small jumping around and multiple projects? Well. I’m only building two boats and renovating one room and doing three jobs for money and training for running races and trying to invent a pedal car...

    I also certainly understand sequence of events when building.

    You remain a benchmark, Brother. And a true inspiration.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    ...I am installing radiant heat in the floor of our house, a huge, repetitive, dirty, boring effort that will pay big dividends...eventually.

    Jim
    Walking around the house in February barefoot like a Hobbit? Priceless!

    Thanks, Jim. Patiently awaiting your ruminations on metalwork and trying resist the urge to drift the thread towards what sort of system you're installing, Warmboard (or similar), tubing under a lightweight topping slab, etc. Best of luck with the installation.

  29. #5174
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Dear Jim, your way with narrative is what makes this thread so unique! Warm toes will help with that!
    The craftsmanship on show within your beautiful little boat is a bonus. It is the artists way to follow the beat of there own drum.
    Greetings from Australia.
    Steve

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    +1

    Rick

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    What dedication to perfection, most of us would just leave the nails alone and try to avoid them. I am interested in your heating system but maybe it would not be appropriate to talk about it on this forum. when I was young we lived in a house that had radiant heat in the ceiling and it was awsome. You know you ought to concider your own "reality show" seems to me that most everything you do is interesting. BTW is the heat hydronic, steam, or resistance?

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by tooljunki View Post
    What dedication to perfection, most of us would just leave the nails alone and try to avoid them. I am interested in your heating system but maybe it would not be appropriate to talk about it on this forum. when I was young we lived in a house that had radiant heat in the ceiling and it was awsome. You know you ought to concider your own "reality show" seems to me that most everything you do is interesting. BTW is the heat hydronic, steam, or resistance?

    The trouble with any kind of "reality show" is that the presence of the watchers skews the "reality". Would I moonwalk, stir the pot and raise the roof after making a particularly difficult fit on the toerail? Maybe, but then again, who knows?

    Here's a quick rundown on the heating system, and then that's it. The boiler will be a natural gas condensing unit heating the water to around ninety degrees F. The heated water will travel through half inch Pex tubing, in runs of between two hundred and two hundred and forty feet in length. The pex tubing is snapped into aluminum heat diffuser plates that transfer the heat to the floor. Very simple.

    Half the basement is a crawl space, which makes the work more difficult, either working on my knees or laying on my back on a makeshift platform. As you can see there is a concrete-like substance coating the joists. That's old concrete from when the joists were used for the forms when the house was built. Any banging about of the joists brings down a fine rain of sand into the eyes and nostrils of the unfortunate one below. There's a lot of banging about. The subfloor originally had thousands of nails poking through that secured the flooring to the subfloor. These had to be cut off with an angle grinder and cutoff disc, and they had to be cut off below the surface of the wood to prevent contact with the aluminum plates. The red hot nail ends had a habit of falling in my direction, me being underneath and gravity being what it is, while my attention was focused on not doing damage with the spinning grinder.

    As you might have noticed, the original builders didn't pay much attention to joist spacing, or even getting them somewhat parallel, or even plumb. They're all over the place, because it didn't matter back in the days before plywood.

    The aluminum plates are screwed in with 3/4" #8 pan head screws made of 316 stainless on six inch centers. You have to bore for the fastenings as the fins come without holes. Close screw spacing insures good contact with the subfloor and consequently good heat transfer. There's about two thousand feet of this stuff, pex and fins, but it seems like less somehow.

    Existing wiring and plumbing offer additional challenges as might be imagined.

    Before any of this work began the basement had to be emptied which was no f##kin' picnic, the contents consisting mainly of heavy hardwood planks and brimming kegs of bronze screws.

    'sall I got.

    Jim

    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 10-09-2018 at 08:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Lying on your back, grinding off thousands of protruding nails. You, sir, have the patience of a saint!!!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    What is the heat transfer like through the PEX and wood? I don't know if I'd ever bother putting radiant in floor heat under a wood floor. But maybe I'm wrong. The only one I ever did was electric under a tile floor which transfers the heat quite well.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Okay so we don't know the build up of the floor, but just for comparison, 3/4 inch oak has an R value of .85 and 1/4 inch ceramic tile has an R value of 1. We don't know what type of flooring is on top of the oak, but the ceramic tile is going to need a sub floor of plywood (3/4 inch = R value 1.08), and a coating of thinset mortar (R value .8), so I think it's safe to say that the wood floor is more efficient or aproximatly equal. Jim I am sorry for opening up this can of worms, and I'll not say anything else about it. Glen.

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