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Thread: Lofting the Brewer catboat

  1. #5111
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    If in the future if it was required to remove the metal work someone would have to drill and use easy outs to remove all those screws. Why would you do that to someone else?

  2. #5112
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    When you heat copper alloys they turn into crystals of alloy suspended in liquid copper, a bit like a slush puppie and just as strong. So the temperature for forging is critical. Or you anneal, do some work and anneal again, and again, and again.
    Thank you, Nick, that explains a lot. In my rush to get welding and banging out in the shed I always skim the chapters that explain the effects of heat on the crystalline structures of the various metals. Always intending to come back for a real read later on, you understand.



    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    My only experience with bronze was having to bend a strap of silicon bronze to make a gudgeon. I had a plumbers "B" tank and torch and I could only get the bronze to a dull red. I heated it up, let it cool and banged away, heated it up, let it cool and banged away, again and again.

    It worked but it wasnt pretty. Thank God it was under water so nobody saw it after it was installed. Took a lot of filing and grinding to make it look decent.

    Without filing and grinding where would most of us be? It wouldn't be pretty, I can tell you that.




    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    The kind of traveller you are making is called a "horse" in the UK. A much better word.

    Thanks you, Gareth, horse it is then.




    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Not enough to matter, or even measure (with a ruler )...

    This surprises me, Jake. I would have thought that forging a curve in round bar would involve some flattening and re-rounding of the curved part, what with all the stretching going on. As for measuring the diameter, I'm using a digital caliper instead of a ruler, that way I can fuss over smaller increments.




    Quote Originally Posted by tooljunki View Post
    Ahoy captain Ledger, I just had an idea and wanted to run it by you guys, what if there were screw with a head that was slightly proud of the beveled recess, and after you installed it you grind it flush for a no-show at all?

    It could certainly be done and would look very cool...but...


    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    If in the future if it was required to remove the metal work someone would have to drill and use easy outs to remove all those screws. Why would you do that to someone else?

    Because it looks cool.




    Here's an update on the trav...ahem...horse. I've fallen down this rabbit hole, you see, and everything else will just have to wait.

    The bends on the ends of the bar are looking a little better after much filling, filing and grinding. You can see the latest addition of filler, yes, that bumpy patch, waiting to be ground off to the proper contour.

    I made a pattern for the flanges that will attach to the ends of the bar. The two resulting castings can be seen just as they came out of the sand. The cylindrical lumps on the back of the castings are there for chucking in the lathe and will be cut off later. The flanges need to be secured to the ends of the bar at an angle corresponding to the angle of the deck.

    Before attaching the last flange I need to make a ring to slip over the bar. I'm thinking some half inch bronze rod bent into a circle and welded shut, but I'm not at all sure how to go about doing that.

    Cheers,

    jim


    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 09-03-2018 at 08:06 AM.

  3. #5113
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim,
    I don't have the hot work tools you are using therefore my method would be to cold bend the bar over a radius, like using a pipe bender. I'm wondering why you didn't?

  4. #5114
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Any reason you couldn't cast the bronze dounut?

  5. #5115
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Jim,
    I don't have the hot work tools you are using therefore my method would be to cold bend the bar over a radius, like using a pipe bender. I'm wondering why you didn't?

    I bent the shallow curve by hand using a radius form sawed out of 2X lumber and that took some doing. One reason I didn't attempt a cold bend on the small radius ends is that there is nothing on the property that would withstand the force required. That would be one hell of a pry bar.



    Quote Originally Posted by tooljunki View Post
    Any reason you couldn't cast the bronze dounut?

    No reason it couldn't be done, but the result would be less than satisfactory. Although the cast piece might be the same material as a piece of drawn rod the drawn material is superior in terms of strength and hardness, having been squeezed to dimension by sets of high pressure rollers.





    Here are the two flanges from the previous photo. They've been cleaned up, bored and countersunk for fastenings, and bored on an angle to accept the ends of the horse. The angle is necessary to accommodate the deck crown and slope.


  6. #5116
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim,
    I'd rent one of these. Radius might be different but oh well.
    1" steel rebar. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...IWjeL1Q-uD9uHO

    Nice job on the flanges. Will you run the bar through the deck and use nuts on threaded ends?
    Last edited by navydog; 09-04-2018 at 07:38 AM.

  7. #5117
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    I'd rent one of these. Radius might be different but oh well.
    1" steel rebar. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...IWjeL1Q-uD9uHO

    Nice job on the flanges. Will you run the bar through the deck and use nuts on threaded ends?

    Thanks, that's a handy piece of equipment to know about.

    About the radius though, it's important. If the radius is too tight there's the possibility that the ring attached to the mainsheet block will be able to hang up. I wanted an easy curve with very little vertical straight section so that there will be free movement of the block across the horse when changing tacks.

    The bar itself will not go through the deck. It will be welded to the flanges top and bottom, and the flanges will be through-bolted through the deck and the Locust blocking beneath.
    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 09-04-2018 at 01:47 PM.

  8. #5118
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I thought as much about the radius. I don't care for the block dropping down on the deck so much in light down wind conditions. Are you going to rig the traveler with a positioning system?

  9. #5119
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Jim,
    I'd rent one of these. Radius might be different but oh well.
    1" steel rebar. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...IWjeL1Q-uD9uHO

    Nice job on the flanges. Will you run the bar through the deck and use nuts on threaded ends?
    Another option might be to find a garage that has an exhaust bending machine. I have a friend who has one that he's used for bending all sorts of stuff. Similar in concept, but more adjustable for radius.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  10. #5120
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Great idea on that.

  11. #5121
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Jim, this is a horse I took a shot of at the last Australian Wooden Boat Festival. I'm not sure how well it might work but it was beautifully made. It might help in your deliberations:

    Horse.jpg

    Rick

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Rick, that is gorgeous!

  13. #5123
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Does all the tension from the sheet pass through that little S-hook?

  14. #5124
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Slick. I really like the springs/shock absorbers. I broke what I thought was a massive aluminum traveler on my last boat on a tack in 40 knots. A couple of springs probably would have prevented that.
    -Dave

  15. #5125
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I have made plenty of "rings" for rigging work by simply bending stock between two pins and welding the butt joint. If you want to forge it perfect after welding you can do that. (Some of these rings were made from 1" steel bar stock, maybe 5" in diameter)
    Depending on the size of the ring, (a small one, say up to 1/2" bronze bar stock) you can drill a hole in a piece of bar stock, insert the (heated dull red) end of your "ring material, and just wrap it around the bar (about 1-1/2 turns, unless you want more than one) Cut and weld. Like making candy...

  16. #5126
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    Does all the tension from the sheet pass through that little S-hook?
    It is a twisted D shackle.

    You deserve a "Duh!"!
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #5127
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I undoubtedly do deserve such, but that traveller looks to me like it's cobbled together from spare parts.

  18. #5128
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    I undoubtedly do deserve such, but that traveller looks to me like it's cobbled together from spare parts.
    Mebbe you lot can take your discussion elsewhere and stop bumpng my thread for f#ck all.

    Jim

  19. #5129
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Mebbe you lot can take your discussion elsewhere and stop bumpng my thread for f#ck all.

    Jim
    So make something already.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #5130
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    So make something already.

    What did you make today, Nick?


    Here's the first trial. It needs work yet to get plumb and I think it's too high, but you might see where it's going.



  21. #5131
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    What did you make today, Nick?


    Here's the first trial. It needs work yet to get plumb and I think it's too high, but you might see where it's going.


    I put another coat of paint on my skiff and filled 11,976 temporary fastener holes in another boat today.

    The horse looks dope, yo. The curve on this near side looks nice.


    Peace,
    Robert

  22. #5132
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I posted the picture of the other horse as it has interesting stops. Sorry if that's breaking yet another rule. I have a friend who nearly lost three fingers to a badly designed traveller.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 09-05-2018 at 05:35 PM.

  23. #5133
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    What did you make today, Nick?


    Here's the first trial. It needs work yet to get plumb and I think it's too high, but you might see where it's going.


    Why too high? Looks good from here.
    Are you going to fit some stopper rings

    so that the traveller and block does not slide down onto the deck and become trapped?
    finished 005.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #5134
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why too high? Looks good from here.


    Are you going to fit some stopper rings so that the traveller and block does not slide down onto the deck and become trapped?


    There's no tiller going beneath this one, Nick, I can drop it down three quarters of an inch with no effect on its function. As close to the deck as possible would seem to be a guiding design principle. It matters little if the flanges move into the curved portion, in fact, functionally it would be best as there would be less chance of snagging.

    No to the stopper rings, at least initially. The ideal situation would be for the sheet block to sit as far outboard as possible, or so it seems to me. If the block is free to move without catching why would you need stoppers. Maybe they're a thing on highly tuned boats, I don't know.

    My intention is to use a stainless steel ring of about two and a half inches ID and attach the sheet block to that. Hopefully this arrangement will be loose enough to work freely from all positions.

    We'll see,

    Jim

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Probably too light for your use, but I bought a bronze ring-1/4" x 2" dia. here http://www.downwindmarine.com/Sea-Do...-90890710.html

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Turks head pad around the bases?

  27. #5137
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    There's no tiller going beneath this one, Nick, I can drop it down three quarters of an inch with no effect on its function. As close to the deck as possible would seem to be a guiding design principle. It matters little if the flanges move into the curved portion, in fact, functionally it would be best as there would be less chance of snagging.

    No to the stopper rings, at least initially. The ideal situation would be for the sheet block to sit as far outboard as possible, or so it seems to me. If the block is free to move without catching why would you need stoppers. Maybe they're a thing on highly tuned boats, I don't know.

    My intention is to use a stainless steel ring of about two and a half inches ID and attach the sheet block to that. Hopefully this arrangement will be loose enough to work freely from all positions.

    We'll see,

    Jim
    The point of a traveller is to provide more efficient down force so any additional advantage from allowing the block to travel outside the curve is negligible. Jamming is a real issue with a curved horse not only when in ordinary use but also in the event of an unplanned gybe, especially with a large-ish mainsail. If the ring is large enough, it may prevent jamming but how will it hold the boom where you want it, especially in a seaway, and how will it help to control a gybe? I'd have flanges/rings to prevent the block from passing over the curve and moveable stoppers to assist with gybing. Just my view.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 09-05-2018 at 08:07 PM.

  28. #5138
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    There's no tiller going beneath this one, Nick, I can drop it down three quarters of an inch with no effect on its function. As close to the deck as possible would seem to be a guiding design principle. It matters little if the flanges move into the curved portion, in fact, functionally it would be best as there would be less chance of snagging.

    No to the stopper rings, at least initially. The ideal situation would be for the sheet block to sit as far outboard as possible, or so it seems to me. If the block is free to move without catching why would you need stoppers. Maybe they're a thing on highly tuned boats, I don't know.

    My intention is to use a stainless steel ring of about two and a half inches ID and attach the sheet block to that. Hopefully this arrangement will be loose enough to work freely from all positions.

    We'll see,

    Jim
    If the sheet block drops on to the deck when squared off, they can hang up on the vertical leg of the horse when you gybe and not be able to move over with the boom. If you do find that this happens you can clap on a pair of chunky Turks heads as a retro fit.
    Will the horse be high enough so that the sheet block will not drag, rattle, and bang on your deck?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  29. #5139
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon1 View Post
    Probably too light for your use, but I bought a bronze ring-1/4" x 2" dia. here http://www.downwindmarine.com/Sea-Do...-90890710.html

    Mike
    Thanks, Mike. I have one on order, 3/8" x 2 1/2" id. For seven bucks it's not worth making one. It should arrive today, so experiments can be carried out as to the actual behavior of the sheet block.

    Jim

  30. #5140
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    A coincidence, I've been making a few patterns today, one for a ring pattern from 2 wooden curtain rings sawn in half up the parting line.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  31. #5141
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    The point of a traveller is to provide more efficient down force so any additional advantage from allowing the block to travel outside the curve is negligible. Jamming is a real issue with a curved horse not only when in ordinary use but also in the event of an unplanned gybe, especially with a large-ish mainsail. If the ring is large enough, it may prevent jamming but how will it hold the boom where you want it, especially in a seaway, and how will it help to control a gybe? I'd have flanges/rings to prevent the block from passing over the curve and moveable stoppers to assist with gybing. Just my view.

    Rick

    Thanks for your thoughts on the matter, Rick. I'd rather not have stops on the bar, but if I feel them necessary I could make up a set later on from a piece of bronze bar stock and a couple of stainless cap screws. My idea is to make the parts loose enough that there will be little chance of the block hanging up...it's the catboat way. It seems a shame to make a five foot wide traveller and then stop it down to four feet actual usable width.

    Nevertheless, you have made good points and I will keep them in mind during the sailing trials.

    Jim

  32. #5142
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Thad View Post
    Turks head pad around the bases?
    Hi, Thad. Thump mats, you say? Like in the Hervey Garrett Smith book? They're going to love that down at the clam shop. I'll see how everything works and if needed I'll make up a set.

    Thanks,

    Jim

  33. #5143
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    If the sheet block drops on to the deck when squared off, they can hang up on the vertical leg of the horse when you gybe and not be able to move over with the boom. If you do find that this happens you can clap on a pair of chunky Turks heads as a retro fit.
    Will the horse be high enough so that the sheet block will not drag, rattle, and bang on your deck?

    Turks heads, Nick...as stoppers on a catboat mainsheet? Need to be pretty tight, they would.

    No the horse will not be high enough to prevent the block from hitting the deck, it just can't be. Here's the traveller on old Sea Rover. While hanging up was an issue, and a pair of stops would have helped there, damage to the deck was minimal. With that in mind I'm going low.

    Jim



  34. #5144
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A coincidence, I've been making a few patterns today, one for a ring pattern from 2 wooden curtain rings sawn in half up the parting line.
    Coincidence? Some might say...

    So whatcha gonna do with with that, Peter?

    Jim

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I'm retired now Jim but would like to earn a few dollars via Ebay selling a few castings. Oarlocks, cleats, fairleads , eye bolts,small boat blocks, that type of thing. So a few new patterns are required.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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