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Thread: Lofting the Brewer catboat

  1. #5006
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I think lipstick would be just the ticket for identifying the interference...

  2. #5007
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Most likely the angle of attack is slightly different from the way the fid was fitted.
    Last edited by navydog; 08-02-2018 at 12:35 PM.

  3. #5008
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Thanks all, for the excellent suggestions. They were most helpful.

    Navy, you were right, the rails were too fat on the inside top, an easy fix.


    Here's that bronze bit after some more fumbling. There's some holes drilled in the end with a couple of screws going into the stem. The holes are smaller than they need to be and they're not countersunk yet. There's always the hope that some minute final adjustment can still be made to pull push the piece one way or the other by drilling pilot holes and such off center. Should the need arise.

    The hole in front for the breasthook bolt has been drilled through the bronze. I was a clever lad, marking the hole with a drill bit run through from the inside. Here's the clever bit...marking with a punch one sixteenth higher than the drill mark, the idea being to be able to pull the cap down tight with the bolt. As things turned out, tho, the holes lined up perfectly, which wasn't what I wanted but it's a darn sight better than the hole being too low.

    Once the piece was keyed in location some of the excess was trimmed, which added a lot to the overall appearance of the project.

    Later...

    Jim



  4. #5009
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Here's a casting of the lug that will be the attachment point for the lower end of the forestay with the casting channels still attached. The wooden part is the pattern. The turnbuckle fork will attach to the lug.



  5. #5010
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    What alloy Jim?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  6. #5011
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    It's silicon bronze, Peter, not the strongest alloy, but very weldable.

  7. #5012
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I haven't used that yet.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  8. #5013
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    More consistently fascinating craftsmanship. Thanks for this series, err.. thread.

    What do you use for the bronze you cast? Is it plumbing fittings or do you use a more raw material?

  9. #5014
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by John Husky View Post
    More consistently fascinating craftsmanship. Thanks for this series, err.. thread.

    What do you use for the bronze you cast? Is it plumbing fittings or do you use a more raw material?
    Thanks, John. I have, in the past, melted old fitting and propeller shafts, but I find that these items produce a lot of dross floating on top which must be skimmed. You never know the composition of scrap which makes any fitting produced from this material suspect. This might be okay if you're casting a wall plaque but less so for rigging hardware and rudder fittings. I use bronze purchased in 20 lb. ingots, of a known composition, and avoid the uncertainty. Much of the bronze gets remelted, the runners and sprues from previous casting mainly, plus cut pieces of bronze fastenings and sheet scrap.


    Here's the cast bronze eye, cleaned up and drilled for the pin of the turnbuckle, tack welded in place.



  10. #5015
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Nice looking work Jim. Your boat will be a marvel when done.

  11. #5016
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    There is so much wonderful work in this project it's hard to know where to begin praising it. Besides, it's so beyond my skill level that I'm completely in awe. Well done Jim!
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

  12. #5017
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    What's really impressive to me is the level of attention and detail given to every part, no matter how small. True craftsmanship. It's a pleasure to see it coming together and it's just as remarkable in person.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Another masterpiece! Well done..

  14. #5019
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Thank you all for your interest, kind words and encouragement. Welcome aboard, Isla, it's good to see you here. Tom, we look forward to your next visit.


    The welding of the lug onto the bronze plate took most of yesterday. The reason is that I could only weld for about fifteen seconds at a time, while allowing the piece to cool down between weldings. It was done this way to avoid warping the thin sheet, which occurs very quickly when too much heat is applied at once. As a consequence, the weld was not very even. They never are at the best of times but this is as good of an excuse as any. Ten or fifteen starts on a four inch bit of weld, I mean it takes me a quarter inch of weld to get things in the groove and then it's time to stop. The important thing is it's a strong weld, burned in nicely even if looking rough.

    What I have in mind is a smooth fillet that looks more cast than welded. This piece has a prominent place on the boat and needs to be well finished. I intend cleaning up the weld with a rotary burr. Here's the scene on the bench. Using a magnifying light the burr can be used very carefully to clean off the high spots on the weld. A round file can be applied to the weld which shows up the high spots as shiny areas. These spots can be taken down with the burr, removing material much quicker than the file alone. Low spots can be filled in with more weld. This photo was taken shortly after beginning work.

    This is a technique I've been thinking about lately, and if it works out I see plenty of further applications and possibilities.

    Cheers to all,

    Jim


  15. #5020
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Mere mortals would just do a quick clean-up of that weld and call it good. You go the exact mile... or ten.
    Fast forward to the year 2150 when this boat is still sailing and people are admiring the craftsmanship.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  16. #5021
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Nice, Jim.

    A pleasure to watch you work.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  17. #5022
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Would it be possible to flow some brazing rod around there as a filler, rather than more welding?

    I mean, if the welds are good, and this is just cosmetic work, maybe some braze rod would work better? It tends to sort of flow, anyway, and even I can make fairly smooth, nice looking joints with brazing. I learned how to filet braze when I thought I might make bike frames. I do make a few, but that all stopped when I got wise and starts building kayaks, instead.

    I was also thinking the lower temp of the braze would be easier on the welds you already made. Rather than welding and welding the same spot. But, I’m guessing and thinking, and will surely defer to more competent and knowledgeable metal workers.

    Looks slick, either way.

    Peace,
    Lug Brazington

  18. #5023
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    The ability to weld bronze would greatly enhance my options. Can you give us some details? What type of process, filler rod, etc.. are you using?

  19. #5024
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Thank you all for your interest, kind words and encouragement. Welcome aboard, Isla, it's good to see you here. Tom, we look forward to your next visit.


    The welding of the lug onto the bronze plate took most of yesterday. The reason is that I could only weld for about fifteen seconds at a time, while allowing the piece to cool down between weldings. It was done this way to avoid warping the thin sheet, which occurs very quickly when too much heat is applied at once. As a consequence, the weld was not very even. They never are at the best of times but this is as good of an excuse as any. Ten or fifteen starts on a four inch bit of weld, I mean it takes me a quarter inch of weld to get things in the groove and then it's time to stop. The important thing is it's a strong weld, burned in nicely even if looking rough.

    What I have in mind is a smooth fillet that looks more cast than welded. This piece has a prominent place on the boat and needs to be well finished. I intend cleaning up the weld with a rotary burr. Here's the scene on the bench. Using a magnifying light the burr can be used very carefully to clean off the high spots on the weld. A round file can be applied to the weld which shows up the high spots as shiny areas. These spots can be taken down with the burr, removing material much quicker than the file alone. Low spots can be filled in with more weld. This photo was taken shortly after beginning work.

    This is a technique I've been thinking about lately, and if it works out I see plenty of further applications and possibilities.

    Cheers to all,

    Jim

    Put plenty of fillet on. then work harden and compress the fillet by peening with a straight peen hammer, then fair it off with a burr or rat tail file.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #5025
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I'm thinking that if I need a big magnifying glass to see imperfections I'm not going to worry about it any more.

  21. #5026
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Nice, Jim.

    A pleasure to watch you work.

    Kevin

    Jim, I have to echo what Kevin (and many, many others) have said - great craftsmanship, well-documented. I have enjoyed reading - and rereading - each of these pages --- Many thanks to you, Sir


    Rick
    Last edited by hawkeye54; 08-07-2018 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Spell check put one over on me - again!

  22. #5027
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Nice, Jim.

    A pleasure to watch you work.

    Kevin
    Thanks, Kevin, it's interesting stuff if you like that sort of thing.




    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Mere mortals would just do a quick clean-up of that weld and call it good. You go the exact mile... or ten.
    Fast forward to the year 2150 when this boat is still sailing and people are admiring the craftsmanship.

    I've no doubt, Rich, that there might be a few willing to accept less in the finish department than I. OTOH, I've seen plenty of cleats polished way beyond the limits of my patience. I'm sanding to 220 and that's it. It'll all turn brown by Labor Day.




    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Would it be possible to flow some brazing rod around there as a filler, rather than more welding?

    I mean, if the welds are good, and this is just cosmetic work, maybe some braze rod would work better? It tends to sort of flow, anyway, and even I can make fairly smooth, nice looking joints with brazing. I learned how to filet braze when I thought I might make bike frames. I do make a few, but that all stopped when I got wise and starts building kayaks, instead.

    I was also thinking the lower temp of the braze would be easier on the welds you already made. Rather than welding and welding the same spot. But, I’m guessing and thinking, and will surely defer to more competent and knowledgeable metal workers.

    Looks slick, either way.

    Peace,
    Lug Brazington

    Isn't that the technique they use on motorcycle frames to fair the joints, first oxy-weld and then fill with brazing? Thing is, I'm not familiar with brazing, it's something I should learn. Less heat would be a plus. Is the filler bronze or brass, or either? Something that flows easily might be a plus.






    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    The ability to weld bronze would greatly enhance my options. Can you give us some details? What type of process, filler rod, etc.. are you using?

    The welder I'm using is a Miller Syncrowave 250 which will both stick weld and tig. This is tig welding, which is very similar to oxy-acetylene welding, in that each uses a torch in one hand and a filler rod in the other. The tig torch is water-cooled and the amperage flowing through the torch is controlled by a foot pedal. The electric arc and the weld puddle are surrounded by a bubble of Argon gas that prevents contamination of the weld. Compared to other methods of welding tig welding is slower but can be more precise. It is suitable to small work and fine detail where a lot of control is needed.

    The value of ability to weld bronze and steel cannot be underestimated when building a boat of any size. This idea of welding castings and flat stock together has interested me for some time and I'm glad for this opportunity to try it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Put plenty of fillet on. then work harden and compress the fillet by peening with a straight peen hammer, then fair it off with a burr or rat tail file.


    Thank you, Nick, and I assume it'll be watertight at 300 meters.




    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    I'm thinking that if I need a big magnifying glass to see imperfections I'm not going to worry about it any more.


    Magnifying glass aaaand reading glasses. I'll get to the point I won't worry about it anymore soon enough, never fear.




    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye54 View Post
    Jim, I have to echo what Kevin (and many, many others) have said - great craftsmanship, well-documented. I have enjoyed reading - and rereading - each of these pages --- Many thanks to you, Sir


    Rick

    Thank you, Rick. I'm thinking of indexing the thread on the first post to make it easier to find a particular part of the build. that, and I still have a lot of photos left over from the P-Bucket fiasco that need reposting in their correct posts. Thread repair.




    Here's the piece smoothed up somewhat with some filler welds trying to fill in the divots. There's some warping of the plate, unavoidable really, but that should straighten out. The piece has been bored and countersunk for the screws.

    Thanks all,

    Jim



  23. #5028
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    does your welder have a pulse setting or maybe is it a separate add on module ?
    it's a really big help in limiting heat input on extremely light sheet or tube material
    and to limit distortion or other delicate situations

  24. #5029
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    While not Rob - I've done quite a bit of brazing. Bronze rod flows at a far lower temp than tig. Use an oxy-acetylene torch - get the metal hot enough to where the bronze will flow onto it & stick, move slowly on while flowing from the rod.

    Someone skilled can braze very thin sheet metal without any warping. If you have an oxy-acetylene torch, grab some brazing rod from any welding supply place (or even Lowes: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lincoln-Ele...g-Rods/4740742) & play with it. If you're good with tig, brazing will come naturally.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #5030
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by coelcanth View Post
    does your welder have a pulse setting or maybe is it a separate add on module ?
    it's a really big help in limiting heat input on extremely light sheet or tube material
    and to limit distortion or other delicate situations
    Yes you can buy add on pulse units for the Miller syncrowave.
    The Miller Syncrowave is the king of welding machines.
    It was made before pulse welding came on the scene.
    With Jims welding skills he does not need pulse welding.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  26. #5031
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    While not Rob - I've done quite a bit of brazing. Bronze rod flows at a far lower temp than tig. Use an oxy-acetylene torch - get the metal hot enough to where the bronze will flow onto it & stick, move slowly on while flowing from the rod.

    Someone skilled can braze very thin sheet metal without any warping. If you have an oxy-acetylene torch, grab some brazing rod from any welding supply place (or even Lowes: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lincoln-Ele...g-Rods/4740742) & play with it. If you're good with tig, brazing will come naturally.
    Tig welding with silicon bronze filler helps to keep the heat down and the warping to a minimum as opposed to oxy-actelene welding.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  27. #5032
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    While not Rob - I've done quite a bit of brazing. Bronze rod flows at a far lower temp than tig. Use an oxy-acetylene torch - get the metal hot enough to where the bronze will flow onto it & stick, move slowly on while flowing from the rod.

    Someone skilled can braze very thin sheet metal without any warping. If you have an oxy-acetylene torch, grab some brazing rod from any welding supply place (or even Lowes: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lincoln-Ele...g-Rods/4740742) & play with it. If you're good with tig, brazing will come naturally.

    Nothing to add except brazing, to me, has always been more akin to soldering than welding.

    Whereas in welding the base material is melted into the pool with whatever filler is to be added, brazing is applying metal to other hot metal. The two don’t really melt together, as far as I know. It’s a sort of “super” soldering, I think.

    All the fillet brazing I did was similar to silver soldering, say a knife. Little chips and bits of braze material mixed with flux and a sweeping kiss of the torch until it all melted into one lovely, smooth fillet. Every time. Haha.

    I think I honed what skill I did have at brazing by hard surfacing farm implements with a torch, and fixing cast iron stuff.

    Dude, you will become adept at it in no time.

    Peace,
    Robert

  28. #5033
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Thanks for the replies and advice. Donald, it's good to see you here, you're keeping well, I hope.


    This welder predates pulse control. There's just a few knobs and switches on the front that control the basics. Even so, it's way more welder than my skills deserve, something I'm growing into. Being able to throw a few more variables into the mix would just make me anxious.


    Here's a nice long shot of the fillets. They're as good as I could get them using what's at hand. Look close and there's still divots, mostly made by the burr. You can fill them, but grinding them down is likely to produce a fresh scar. Heavy sanding might take some out, but the metal gets eaten away where you don't want it to. So, i'm leaving it at that, sanded to eighty grit. After the band is screwed on the whole shebang will have to be smoothed up, screw heads, edges and so on, so a final smooth up and blending will occur then.

    Meanwhile the three sections of the "tail" have been welded together and are ready to fasten to the top piece.

  29. #5034
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    ooooooooooooooooo.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  30. #5035
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    In all honesty I was hoping for a dragons head on here, but it seems this has more of a functional aspect to it, which I can appreciate, as well as the durability! Be careful not to hit anything, it could get ugly. By the way what are you doing to prevent moisture from getting around those screws? Glen.

  31. #5036
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by tooljunki View Post
    In all honesty I was hoping for a dragons head on here, but it seems this has more of a functional aspect to it, which I can appreciate, as well as the durability! Be careful not to hit anything, it could get ugly. By the way what are you doing to prevent moisture from getting around those screws? Glen.

    Dragons head, eh, Glen? Ah, the chances missed once restraint gains the upper hand.


    Here's the last opportunity to see the mighty stem band as a unique piece. This morning it gets glued in place, and about time. The band will be set in a nice troweled-on layer of black 5200. The screws will be temporary while the bedding sets up. Once set up the actual fasteners will be screwed in. The holes in the lower band are undersized and without countersinking. The fear was that the band would be too easy to kink with the countersinks drilled in, so they will be drilled in place. The screws will be coated with a dab of 5200 to keep the water out. The stem face and top have had multiple coats of sealer in preparation.


    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 08-12-2018 at 11:45 AM.

  32. #5037
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    The fear was that the band would be too easy to kink with the countersinks drilled in, so they will be drilled in place. The screws will be coated with a dab of 5200 to keep the water out. The stem face and top have had multiple coats of sealer in preparation.


    They don't have to be drilled in place now that you have bent it to the correct curve. They can now be drilled and counter sunk in the vice.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #5038
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    I could have made a table for the drill press that would have worked when the piece was flat, Nick. I was worried about the holes and countersinks creating a weak spot that would kink the piece if it was mishandled. Probably overthinking it, but drilling the holes in place is not terribly difficult.

    Jim

  34. #5039
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    I could have made a table for the drill press that would have worked when the piece was flat, Nick. I was worried about the holes and countersinks creating a weak spot that would kink the piece if it was mishandled. Probably overthinking it, but drilling the holes in place is not terribly difficult.

    Jim
    No, you are correct. Drilling before bending can allow kinking. Now that you have it bent to fit, you should be OK to finish the drilling on the drill press. A curved wood block under the work would be good.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #5040
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    Default Re: Lofting the Brewer catboat

    On a much smaller scale, we install brass quarter-round for stem bands on the canoes my students build. It gets pre-bent to match the stem curvature and then drilled and counter-sunk for oval-head screws. If you don’t pre-bend before drilling, it will kink at the weak spots created by the holes. I think you’d see the same results with your metalwork.
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