I need some help idenifying this boat....

[Northernguy59]

I have an offer on this 24' Cutter that is conditional on the survey results. The owner died and the wife know's nada about it. All I can find out so far is :

24' Cutter built by Henry Boat Works Port Delhousie, Ont
Built in 1972, Double planked, Volvo diesel, iron keel, boat weight is 7000 pound's.

I have other photos of her interior which is sparse and incomplete. It looks to be in great shape so far and from what the guy is telling me. It is listed with a reputable broker.

Any thought on design or designer ? I hope this work's I have never posted photo's before.

Thanks, Dale

[Flying Orca]

No idea what she is, other than nice!

(Being in fairing hell at the mo', I'm thinking that buying might have made sense...)

[johnw]

See if the wife has any documents. Is there a current survey?

[Woxbox]

Looking for clues, here. Does she have bilgeboards?

[jerry bark]

Nice looking boat, hope it goes your way.

jerry

[Tanbark Spanker]

Is there any sheer or crown in the deck. It may be lens distortion or the camera angle, but I'm not seeing a lot of sweep in the deck. The Alden Malabar Jr on eBay has flattened out over the years. The boat in the picture seems to have a slight hog and no crown left in the deck. Maybe it was designed that way. I'd shop around. It looks like the deadwood is iron fastened. That type of keel gets old and wiggly over the years and the garboards 'll leak.

Is the S & S Gulfstream 30 still listed for for sale at $6900 in this months Woodenboat? Now that's a boat, man!

[Northernguy59]

The wife has absolutly no information on the boat. Yes she has bilgboards. Her draft is 3'-6". I am having survey done but there is so much snow it will take some time.

I have not looked at the boat. Its a ways away from me. If the survey come's back good then I,ll go look at at it. I think the boat is sound from all I gather. Thete is no current survey, just an old one.

Thanks, Dale

[Northernguy59]

she has 8' beam.............. also

[kc8pql]

I'd want to be there when the survey is done. A little face to face conversation will tell you a lot more than the typical written report. You'll also be able to see just how complete the survey really is.

[reddog]

Hmmm...possibly a Maurice Griffiths design?Looks similar to his Eventide design which had bilge keels.Check out this site:
http://www.eventides.org.uk/
Good luck;

Earl

[Northernguy59]

I just might be there forthe survey. Im trying to work out date's now.

Thanks reddog I,ll check it out.

Thanks, Dale

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Hh'mmmm.... Well, there are Eventides and Eventides, because they were so popular. But I don't think she's one, Earl -- transom-hung rudder vs internal rudder-post, different rudder, different deck-house, fore-hatch in different location, looks like more rake on the bow, and perhaps (can't tell for sure from the photos) not a hard enough lower chine abaft mid-length.

Eventides are available with fixed bilge-keels and a shallow ballast-keel, or with a fixed deep keel. But as far as I know there was never any provision for vessels with offset centreboards, which I assume is what Woxbox means by "bilge-boards," and which appear to exist on this vessel just below the topsides.

Mike

[Northernguy59]

I went through the web site of Maurice Griffiths. I didnt see anything that was like this boat. I went through some other designers like Atkins, Brewer and havent found anything simalar.

She was built in 1972, what would be some designers in that era ?

Dale

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Its not a Wittholz design is it?

[tjaldur]

Anyway you should (yourself) investigate the hull thoroughly. Use a knife or a small screwdriver on the boards to see if the tool enters the wood. Try it on any piece of wood first for comparison. Preferably the same kind of wood that is use on the boat. Also knock on the wood and listen to the sound. Knock on you door first for comparison. Both outside and inside. Special care to be taken in the waterline.

Smell inside the boat, searching for the smell of fungus and other microorganism of decomposition. If the boat has been on land for a long time, you may need to do some caulking under the waterline. Go inside the boat and look if you can see through the boat, between the boards. That is to be expected if it has been on land for a long time.

Painting can possibly hide many flaws.

[johnw]

Is Henry Boat Works still in business? They might have some records.

[reddog]

Mike,I agree she's not an Eventide but with the flat sheer and bilge boards could be a design from across the pond.Or it could be a local variation on a design,artistic license so to speak.

Earl

[Northernguy59]

From what I have gathered so far Henry Boat Works is not in operation any longer. The surveyor I have hired is trying to find out some detail's..... if he can.

Dale

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Earl, I don't think those bilge-boards (if they're what I think Woxbox means they are) are so common in the UK. I have an idea that Iain Oughtred is using them on a couple of his designs, but his are pretty recent in the scheme of things. As far as I know, English "East Coasters" that didn't have a fixed keel used either a c/b on the centreline (often with a folding table fixed to the top of the c/b case,) or the bilge keels shown in the pictures above.

If you de-saturate Dale's second photo a bit you can see a black line which I take to be a bilge-board slot a few inches below the topsides paint. However, it's a good deal further outboard than I'd expect it to be, as I understand bilge-boards are usually designed to fit under the front (inboard) edge of a berth. This one looks far enough outboard that it could be operated from on deck, although the first photo doesn't show any obvious signs of lifting tackle, etc. (Maybe the tackle runs back under the deck to the cockpit?)

I'm inclined to think your artistic-licence idea is probably right -- although on what original design I'm afraid I don't know.

Mike

[skuthorp]

I'm no authority on this subject, but any further outboard and those bilge keels would be lee boards. She's not a continental design, from the Low countries or the Baltic maybe?

[Northernguy59]

WOXBOX.........it seems we may have some confusion. What are you refering to when you say bilgeboard's ?

I,ve been looking on line checking out alot of designer's I know of and cant seem to find anything just like her. Its odd to me there is a camber in the cabin roof and none on deck. Looks a bit weird to me. I have some photos of her interior and bilges I,ll try to post on Friday.

Thanks for help, I really appreciate it !!

Dale

[Hwyl]

Is it only me, I don't see any bilgeboards.

I'd say she's a modified design, that semi balanced rudder is out of character to the rest of the boat. i like it though.

The trailer is spectacular.

[Woxbox]

When I saw what looked to be a slot in the bottom, I thought of Oughtred's Eun Mara, which he designed with bilge boards. Here's one upside down. Not a common thing -- as noted above, it's usually a case of what Bolger calls an "off-center centerboard", typically a single board located as also noted above along the front edge of a bunk or storage bin -- or bilge keels, which are permanent and common for boats that need to dry out with every tide. But not a pair of boards that far outboard.

So it struck me that having a pair of "centerboards" at the turn of the bilge like that (what else can you call them but bilge boards?) is odd enough that it ought to identify the design. But I'm coming up empty just like everyone else is.

[skuthorp]

How about a 'home design and build' There are influences there from Seabirds and older style boats from the 20's and 30's. I wonder if someone built his 1 off dream? It somehow reminds me of a pond yacht scaled up with that flat deck and oddly fitting deckhouse

[m poulin]

Hello all,

I had a quick look at this boat last fall and also tried to get more info on the design, builder etc. but did not get very far. This site has a nice photo of the boat on the water which might make it easier to identify for Knowledgeable folks on the forum. Sorry I don't know how to post photos.

http://nsc.ca/classifieds/hettie2.jpg

At a glance, the boat will need work on some planks at the bilge, around the stem eyebolt, lower mast end and refinishing but I've seen worse posted here. I don't think it's hogged but it definitely has a flat sheerline, no bilge boards but many portholes! Did not have a look inside so can't say about overall soundness and being double planked I wonder if it will take up well. I think it has been on the hard awhile. Nice solid trailer, engine is said to run, did not inspect rigging, hardware etc. and I understand the seller is motivated. Could be an interesting project!

Keep us posted and best of luck.

Maurice Poulin

[Northernguy59]

Maurice, Thanks for the photo and input. That deckhouse is friggen huge !! I can see why reddog thought it might be a Maurice Griffiths design, his generally have huge deck houses as well. Maurice, how much digging did you do on her designer ?

Thanks, Dale

[m poulin]

Hello Dale and all,

I did not do a great deal of searching, could not get much details from the broker. I searched the Transport Canada registry under the name Hettie (that's the current name for the boat) nothing. Might work if there is a registration number to be found. I searched the web for Henry Boat Works, found only very oblique reference in a site on history of Port Dalhousie. Nothing to go on. The owner has an old survey that might contain design info. I think the boat looks like a derivative of someone's design and it would be fun to discuss what and who as you would then have an idea how it could sail. If not, well so what, it looks well built overall and could be a fun project.

Be nice if someone here could recognize the design.

Cheers,

Maurice

[Northernguy59]

Thanks Maurice,

Any information at all helps. I,ll let you know as I dig for information and as the survey come in. I have the old survey and even called the old gentleman who did it.............. he doe's not remember anything !! How could he not remember a fine sleek sailing vessel such as "Hettie" ?? (tongue in cheek)

Dale

[Northernguy59]

reddog suggested she might be a Maurice Griffith design and more and more I look he may have something there. When you think of the time she was constructed, 1972 the owner maybe have been think about buiding a boat long before the actual start of construction. In those day's Canada being a colony of Britain was influanced in a lot ways and probubly in boat designs as well. If you look at the following link it give's a description of how Maurice Griffith viewed his design's. If you also look at the "Waterwitch" although bigger there are alot of simarlarities in this boat. Any thought's or am I all wet??
Thanks, Dale http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=49830&url=

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Waterwitch --



Nothing like, in my opinion.

Nor do I think your boat is anything like any other MG design either. Sorry.

Mike

[Northernguy59]

Hey Mike, No need to be sorry. I dont think the boat is a Waterwitch or an Eventide, what I was thinking was some of the trait's in both design's and the description on the boat on yachtworld of how MG aproached his design's is similar to this boat.

No ?

Dale

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Dale, I agree that MG's design philosophy was pretty-much as quoted in that article --

"The signature features of his designs are shoal draft often with bilge keels for the shallow East Coast creeks, raised topsides to give cabin volume for a wet Essex week-end when sailing is not desireable but boating is and no great stress on windward performance."

The raised topsides in particular were a great favourite with him (as later was his "loco cab", used so successfully in his own boat Kylix among others,) and I can vouch for the fact that raised topsides give vastly increased cabin space. As I think I said elsewhere, in Waterwitch MG gave a nod to people who like side-decks, but they're really pretty unuseable in this instance. Many of his designs had none.

I don't know of any MG designs that had bilge-boards, although fixed bilge-keels (as shown in the drawing in my last post) were commonly used as an option to centreboards for many of his designs.

In the case of your boat there are apparently bilge-boards (although one can't tell where they are exactly or how they're operated;) and there's clearly no attempt at building up the topsides.

One other feature I've just noticed is that your vessel appears to have a housing bowsprit. This is a good thing to have when berthing at a marina that charges fees based on LOA. But this wasn't an issue in England when MG was designing (when there were no marinas as we know them, and shoalwater craft on the East Coast were left on drying berths) -- so I doubt that he would ever have designed one.

I'm sure in my own mind this isn't an MG design -- or even a design based on one, as, for instance, Alan Buchanan's Wild Duck was. But on the other hand, I have no idea what design it might be, which is pretty frustrating. So I'm sorry to sound negative about your MG theory, but perhaps we should treat it in the same way as Edison treated his incandescent-filaments experiment? Not as a failure in deciding what this design is, but as a success in deciding what it isn't.

If it's a US design, then my best guess (for what it's worth) is that it comes from somewhere towards the south of the east coast. Are there shoal waters in Canada where such a design would make sense?

Mike

[Northernguy59]

Mike, Thanks for your insight, greatly appriciated. Someone here was aking if she had bilge boards, no she does not. Yes there are lot's of water where this boat was built and sailed that is shoal waters.

Damn Mike I thought I was making progress !! lol

I,ll keep plugging away, I did send an email to the local historian where the boat was built, maybe that will turn up some information. This boat isnt really mine yet. I have an offer conditional to survey and my personal inspection. Otherwise I,ll be in the market for another. For some reason I am attracted to such mysteries. I love to investigate I guess. Thanks for your help.

Dale

[Northernguy59]

The broker found a drawing from A.M. Deerling, Naval Architects/Marine Engineers of Chicago, IIlinois. Has anyone heard of this designer ?

I tried a google search and did not come up with anything yet.

Thanks,

Dale

[Northernguy59]

Bigfella corrected me, the name is actually A.M. Deering and I found this boat on WB For Sale page.

looks similar ?

http://classifieds.woodenboats4sale.com/?1500D10

Dale

[soba]

Isn't Bigfella's Grantala a Deering design? I seem to remember that...

I think the Deering Archive was at Roamer Boatworks when Chris Craft bought the steel division. I seem to remember Hope College having that collection, and sending it to Mystic. If so, the plans might be available from Mystic Seaport.

Just speculation and vague memories...be interesting to find out...I've been following this thread with interest.

[Northernguy59]

I got the survey back and on "HETTIE". Just as Maurice said a few planks need some attention but I think shes in fair shape overall. I still have not found any information on the designer but they do have some sort of plan. It's hard to get information out of these people for some reason. I have a friend who know's some people where the boat was built so he is doing some research for me, maybe that will turn up something. I can't find any information on A.M. Deering at all. I even checked with Mystic Seaport, nothing. I did find a few boats on the web for sale by Deering and she sure looks like them.

I am going ahead with the deal and have to go to Nepean, Ontario next week to pick it up. Cant wait to get her. I am trying to find someone to service the trailer so I dont have any problems. I,ll post some more photo's after I get her. Wish me luck !

Dale

[m poulin]

Well done Dale,

I bet you will fun with the boat, it is a nice one. Hope the trip home will go well. The trailer looks real solid so I would not fuss too much about it.

Send more photos, I'm sure someone will recognize it at some point.

Cheers,

Maurice