Success is in the details...rolling and tipping

[RodB]

So I repainted my topsides of my 18 foot skiff (23" X 18' per side) using the roll and tip method after a very mediocre attempt with a 3" Purdey brush. I failed to achieve an even coat of paint due my lack of understanding of the method and sheer inexperience. I applied too much paint on the roller and thus the foam brush was unable to even out the application. I had summoned all my collected data and painting wisdom gleaned from any book or forumite and still did not like the results...

So I spent some effort to get some more specific instructions on the finer points of rolling and tipping...a method that is supposedly so good that you read things like, "it looked like it was a spray job"... etc.

I have decided that general descriptions for us inexperienced in a process are sometimes just not enough. Decent success can be subject to the quality of the instructions on the method, and many times little details are left out.

Here is what I have formulated as a recipe for success using this method and having tried it out now... and having been very happy with the results.

1) Use 1/2 of the standard 7" foam roller pad on a 3" roller frame.

2) Use a 12" X 12" piece of plywood as a flat roller pan...for instilling paint onto the roller pad...this allows great control of how much paint actually is on the roller pad. (I fabricated a small table with a hanging spot for my roller frame and a hole for the foam brush haandle and a spot for a paint container).

3) mix up about 8 ounces of paint in a small container and only pour out enough at a time to charge the roller pad maybe a couple of times at most.

4) Thin the paint appropriately (I found this was only found out by doing... and getting a feel for what consistency seemed to work well) and continue to add thinner as you go along as the thinner in the paint container is evaporating.

5) With a controlled amount of thinned paint on the roller pad, roll a swath about 4-6 inches wide up and down on the topsides and then tip from left to right with a 3" foam brush.

6) Pour a little more paint on the ply sheet, load the roller and roll another swath next to the first...and again tip with the foam brush...dry to wet blending the 2nd swath to the first. Tip lightly and evenly and be sure you did not roll on too much paint.

7) Keep moving and repeating the above steps and you get really great results even in 85-90 degrees.

The above allowed the application of a very uniform thin coat of paint that pretty much shows no marks... and looked great.

I have boiled down the process more or less to the above elements and have found the results very satisfying. I would suppose that many of those more experienced in this process could offer some additional tips that would expand the possibilities of this process and of course allow for covering larger surfaces with just as good results... I would welcome any such tips as I am quite impressed with the smoothness and uniformity of the layer of paint I have been able to apply with this method.

By the way, I noticed that the minute you put too much paint in the roller pad, the paint roller pad applied too much paint on the work surface which in turn made it very difficulty to avoid some sagging (slight runs) in the cross brush marks. Even If you tried to tip the paint, you would get some drooping/slight runs from your strokes with the foam brush. I decided the way to master this process was to experiment with thicker paint to optimize coverage, most likely paint and Penetro.

Maybe it just takes me awhile to get some things, but I am happy that I finally figured it out, heat and all. I just failed to really understand the nuances of the process when looking at the basic method in an overview description. Some of my mistakes were having way too much paint on the roller, using too wide of a roller pad, thinning the paint too much...just to mention a few.

Comments welcomed.

RB

[ 08-06-2005, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[capt jake]

Rod, what paint did you end up using? I also have had pooor luck with brush and tip, ended up having my boat sprayed. I have a tender that I would like to brush and tip.

thanks,
Jake

[RodB]

I used Kirby's but I am quite confident that working in this method properly that you can get good results with just about any alkyd enamel or urathane alkyd paint.

I think the key is not loading too much paint on the roller pad... apply an even thin coat of paint but not any more than necessary on the roller. This fairly thin layer of paint... when tipped just layes down very smooth and uniform. As long as you move right along and blend each swath of paint with a foam brush into the last swath you just laid down, it all blends together and looks great. You get a feel for the right amount of paint thinning, I was thinning about 15% or so in 85 degrees...it looked like cream/half and half when I poured the small ammounts on the ply board. I added a capful of thinner every 5 minutes to maintain the right consistency in the paint.

The use of a flat board as a roller pan just allows so much control in how much paint is instilled into the roller pad. Also, my little mobile table that I built has a roller frame hook on an upright 1X2 and a spot for a small container of paint, a stir stick and a hole for the foam brush handle to fit in upsidedown... this is a great setup suggested by an experienced boat painter I know. I just set this little table on the sheer deck and moved around the boat. Works like a charm.

Just as with most boatbuilding tasks, once you figure out any part of the process, you are just about done with it... Lastly, I do not see how I could ever get such a smooth uniform finish with a brush BUT I have seen with my badger brush moving around on smaller areas, I do get great results...but they are small areas where its easy to keep a wet line and move along easily. Mostly, I expect to be able to do much better, easier when the weather cools down and its not almost 100 degrees every day.I just have to paint in the mornings early.

RB

[ 08-06-2005, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Richard Smith]

I have had good results (spray quality) using West System rollers to apply the paint. For tipping I use the roller cut and used as they suggest for smoothing (tipping) their expoxy resin. In tight spots I use foam brushes for both application and tipping. This works for me using Sterlng coatings. Heat, humidity, thinning, first coat vs second coat and knowledge of what imperfections will take care of themselves also come into play.

RS

[guillemot]

Can you back up a step and describe what "tipping" is? I presume it has nothing to do with diary herds or waiting tables. What does it do, and how do you do it?

Thanks,
Jeff

[Todd Bradshaw]

Tipping is very lightly brushing the surface of the paint or varnish, as soon as possible after thr rolled-on application to knock down any bubbles created by the roller. The roller is there to distribute a thin layer of paint as evenly as possible, but tends to leave a bubbly surface. Some of these bubbles will pop on their own, but usually not enough of them to leave a decent finish, so you use the tip of the brush (soft bristle, foam, etc.) and very lightly brush them down (usually using parallel, vertical brush strokes) before the stuff sets-up enough for them to become permanent fixtures.

[pcford]

RodB...sounds like you are getting the hang of it. Great!! It will become easier with more experience. Can't beat the techinique for quality and speed. It would be easier in the temperature you are experiencing if you were using a paint with a retardant.

Todd Bradshaw posted 08-06-2005 01:45 PM .... and very lightly brush them down (usually using parallel, vertical brush strokes) before the stuff sets-up enough for them to become permanent fixtures.

It's important to use _horizontal_ strokes. Paint will not flow as well if tipped out vertically.

[Stephen Hutchins]

Much is really dependent on speed and technique for roll and tip. Some can eliminate most of your instructions under many conditions: ie. temp, humidity, type of paint, etc. I'm not gonna tell my tricks though, unless you pay me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[pcford]

uch is really dependent on speed and technique for roll and tip. Some can eliminate most of your instructions under many conditions: ie. temp, humidity, type of paint, etc. I'm not gonna tell my tricks though, unless you pay me.

It's really not that difficult. It is kinda difficult to explain. And there is no way to predict conditions existing at the time you put paint to boat. The most important thing is to not put the paint on too thick.

Remember the 7th commandment of boat painting:
Thou shalt always prefer a holiday to a run, curtain or loogy.

[Graham Knight]

It's important to use _horizontal_ strokes. Paint will not flow as well if tipped out vertically.

I think every reference I've ever read on this subject says to use vertical strokes, and that's how I always do it.
I've been spraying paint professionally for nearly 30 years, but I'd use the roll and tip method to paint a boat every time. Much less waste which is very important with the cost of good marine paint, and the whole surrounding area doesn't get painted too!

[Todd Bradshaw]

I've always tipped both paint and varnish vertically, which from my experiments helped prevent sags better and I certainly can't complain about the results. I do roll the hell out of it though, until it's really a thin layer. By that time, it isn't really flowing anywhere.






I do alternate vertical and horizontal tipping, layer-by-layer, when appling epoxy filler coats over glasscloth or when barrier coating, which seems to give a more even fill than tipping out five or six coats of resin all in the same direction, but until the paint or varnish jobs start looking bad on my boats I'll continue to tip vertically thank you.

p.s. the paint on that little green boat had been sitting outside for about three years, uncovered when the photo was taken. It's a mix of dark green and black Brightside over heavily sanded 20 year-old gelcoat with some filling and patching of breaks in the hull, dings, etc. (the previous owners let it fill with water and the aft bunks went THROUGH the hull - at least I bought it cheap - $800 with trailer). The boat had recently been washed and gone over with 3-M One-step cleaner/wax before the photo. My point is that I'm a pretty mediocre painter. If I can get a paint job that looks that good, using dark green paint out on a gravel driveway in the summer on a sunny day, which is what I did because I didn't have any other place to work on it at the time, it's a pretty darned good painting method.


[ 08-06-2005, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[Don Maurer]

If you wanted to use the roll and tip method on a small lapstrake boat with strakes between 3" and 4" wide, would you still tip vertically or would you both roll and tip along the length of the strakes?

[RodB]

Well, I've already picked up some good information in these responses. Thanks!

TODD, you are getting really nice results. It sounds like you are getting lots of "pot time" when painting large areas which I do not get in our summer heat right now. Please describe how you paint a large surface where you have to go across one section at a time but must continue again underneath that section and several minutes have passed... with cooler conditions, I assume the paint still blends even if laid down several minutes earlier than the new painted section. Also I assume this would be a two or three guy job where one guy similtaneously is moving along below you as you start at the top and move along the hull.

Now I was going along my topsides (boat on trailer, sheer at mid chest height) rolling up and down from sheer to taped waterline just above the chine. Total painting surface of topside was about 23 inches up and down, boat 18 feet long. So, I rolled up and down and then tipped horiziontally...which works ok but I do see some sags... Except for the small sags, it would be "great"... even with the small sags, it still is a 3 foot paint job unless the light is just right. Even with the small sags, its better than anything I have gotten up to now except for the small areas painted with a badger brush (paint reduced with 30 % Penetrol only) ...no brush marks period!

Also, I see a comment above where you keep rolling until the paint is really evenly distributed before tipping. That is good to know as I was thinking it a good idea to minimize rolling, move quickly in this heat...and was just trying to be precise in loading the roller pad with just the right amount of properly thinned paint. I will roll a bit more tomorrow on my 4th and final topsides coat and see how it helps. Remember, though, I am working in 85 degrees in the early morning so I have to keep moving right along, and keep adding thinner every now and then.

Question. How do I tip vertically if I am painting along the side of the boat and trying to maintain a wet line? I can see that unless the coat of paint is very thin and uniform, I still get little sags...but I 'm unsure on how to tip vertically unless I first tip horizontally, then go vertically immediately after. I can see vertical tipping would DO AWAY WITH THE SAGS, and then the results would be FANTASTIC....please elaborate.
Be very specific.

BTW, I painted my console again this AM along with my daily coat on the topsides...and I am finally happy with the results. I just have a little trouble with all the nice radiused corners all around the console... Any surface I paint, I stop at the edge of the radius hoping the visual break of the radius will hide the paint break if it doesn't blend well. Its very difficult to blend all the damn corners on all four sides because you can't continue down but one side at a time. I am trying to paint up to an already dried radius corner and then use thinned paint and a foam brush to really blend the new paint into the curve of the radius. Suggestion anyone?

RB

[ 08-06-2005, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Graham Knight]

a small lapstrake boat with strakes between 3" and 4" wide

Lapstrake/Clinker boats are a special case, you'd pretty much have to tip horizontally I suppose. I'll be doing one in a few months time so it'll be interesting to see.
As many have discovered the crucial thing is to roll the paint well out, as with all painting methods several thin coats are much better than one thick one.

[WindHawk]

WB puts out a vary good book, "Painting & Varnishing", which is a collection of articles by various authors. What is striking about the book, and WB clearly admits it, is that much of the advice of one person or the other contradicts that of others. It really does come down to "what works for you".

For me, the first time with either paint or varnish or scraper or stripper or epoxy or palm sander or a sanding block on my "baby", it was sheer terror. I learned a lot, developed a process (style???), and I Thank God that she's only 13' long!!!

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think that's true. We all probably do a better job with methods that we believe in and have had success with in the past and I doubt there are too many absolutes in rolling and tipping. The only lapstrake boat I've ever painted was an 18' Simmons Skiff that I rebuilt for a friend. It had fairly wide strakes, but I decided to use a brush. I suppose you could roll and tip one, but it might be more trouble than it's worth and the laps tend to be so dominant visually that they seem to hide a fair number of painting sins (a pier on Lake Michigan later collapsed during a storm directly onto the skiff, smashing it to pieces, so maybe we do pay later for our sins). It's those big smooth areas on other hulls where roll and tip really seems to pay-off for me.

My situation was/is this: I'm a great sander. I can sand the wings off of a fly with a big, 12 lb. Black&Decker disk grinder and watch him walk away. I was getting nice, fair, baby-butt smooth hulls all the way up through final sanding and then screwing them up with my poor painting/varnishing skills and it was really ticking me off. When the Gougeon Brothers Book first came out I looked at all the photos of those varnished hulls and was surprised when they explained that no, they weren't sprayed, they were varnished or painted using their foam epoxy rollers and a brush. I figured I had to try it. There was also a brief sentence or two that's made more difference in my paint jobs than anything else I'd ever read. It said something like "The reason paint runs, drips or sags is because it's either applied too heavily or it's not applied evenly" (or both, I suspect). I guess this is basic info that we're all supposed to know, but I'd never really thought about it and it was somewhat of a revelation.

The people who are good with a paintbrush have obviously learned this and have learned to control the thickness and evenness as they brush (maybe without actually thinking about it during the process, but they have to be doing it). I wasn't - and though practice has improved my brushing skills somewhat, on a big smooth hull they still don't do my sanding jobs justice, compared to rolling and tipping.

The Starboat, driftboat and one side of the green boat were done singlehanded. I had a Gougeon 7" roller in one hand and a brush in the other. On the Star and green boat I'd start at one end and work toward the other (or all the way around the hull in the case of the Star).

I roll a vertical band (gunwale to chine) about the width of the roller. As I said, I really roll it out thin. I go for even color coverage, but it's thin enough that there is no way it's gonna' drip or sag anywhere. Then I tip it immediately and roll the next band. The rolled-out paint never sits on the hull for more than about a minute, if even that, before being tipped out. Then you move on, lapping the painted area just a bit. I had problems working in the sun on the green boat as I was getting lap marks on the first coat where the stuff was drying faster than I could roll and tip even narrow bands. So I taught my wife how to tip the paint (a very smart move) and she now tips-out all paint, varnish and resin jobs as soon as I'm out of the way and moving on to the next band. That way we get almost a continuous flow of work and there isn't time for lap marks to form.

I should say that I don't know squat about paint or varnish additives, thinning, etc. I just use it straight out of the can. I do, at least, stir it and filter it if it looks lumpy, but that's about as high-tech as I go with it. It might be a good area to do some experimentation if you're working in adverse conditions. My best ally seems to be speed, especially when rolling. I'm not delicately flowing it on, I'm spreading a fairly small amount of stuff over a fairly large area with a goodly amount of roller pressure and repeatedly going back over it until it's spread thinly and evenly. The tipping will put the final finish on as long as I'm out of the way soon enough.

Boats like keel-less canoe hulls, where the sides and bottom are all one continuous expanse are a little trickier. I'll start at one end, roll a band from gunwale to keel line on one side, then run around and roll the same area on the other side, meeting at the keel line. While I'm rolling the second side, my wife is already tipping the first and we go back and forth, working toward the other end and trying not to run into each other. It's a bit of a Chinese fire drill, but works. When I did them by myself, I'd roll and tip one band before going to the other side, but you really have to work fast. It's almost better to try to find a place where you can run a line of masking tape down the keel, allowing you to do one side at a time and take care of the tape ridge later.

So that's how I do it, right or wrong. I just keep it thin, try my best to keep it even, work as quickly as possible and rub the gloss down with a Scotchbrite pad between coats.

[RodB]

If you are painting for example my topsides, what is a good procedure as far as sanding between coats, direction to tip, etc.

Say you start rolling vertically, then tip horizontally for the first coat. The next day, you sand with 220 grit, across the very small sags or very minimal brush marks...with a rubber block....90 degrees to the marks orientation...minimally sanding the entire hull and then apply the 2nd coat.

2nd coat: do you roll in a different orientation and tip accordingly?

3rd coat: same question.

When sanding between coats, specifically what is the best approach and grit... I assume starting with 220 and then go to 320. Do you sand across the direction of the tipping or parallel with it?

BTW, I have tried to use straight paint and it is impossible because without some mineral spirits or turps the paint just won't flow or blend, becomes quite sticky and drags the foam brush...at least in my temperatures. I have used paint with only Penetrol and brushed smaller areas with good results, but not straight paint...it just is too dry too fast. Adding about 20-35% Penetrol seems to work ok with a brush, but on the roll and tipping I seem to have to add thinner to get a consistency that flows out thin, and blends together well when tipping (temp range 78-90 degrees). I really enjoyed the nice thick paint and Penetrol as it flowed with my 2" badger brush... covered very well and blended together great as I brushed back into the previous area. I think this would be difficult with a larger area but was painting small 2" wide areas between my non-skid sections and the rubrail. Temp 82-87 degrees. I'm open to suggestions.

RB

[Todd Bradshaw]

That sounds like an awful lot of work to me. If I had to sand the whole hull with 220 and then 320 between coats of paint, I probably wouldn't paint boats at all. Since I roll on 7"-10" wide vertical bands, it seems to make more sense to also tip vertically as it takes a few long strokes instead of a whole bunch of short horizontal ones. This means I can get done tipping and can leave it alone sooner as well as get back to rolling the next band quickly to prevent lap marks. Application speed seems to be a top priority and is the best way to avoid having brush strokes in the finish. A typical bootstripe to gunwale band takes maybe 20-30 seconds to roll and perhaps another 20 seconds to tip out. When I varnished the Star topsides, starting at the bow stem and going down one side, around the transom and up the other side and back to the bow stem it wasn't even taking 1/2 hr. to do an entire coat on the 22' long hull working alone. I've always rolled and tipped vertically on all coats of paint or varnish and from the look of them don't see any reason, or anything to be gained, by trying to roll or tip sideways.

Unless there is something ugly on the last coat, I don't usually sand at all. Scotchbrite knocks the gloss off which is all the surface needs if the last coat went on smoothly enough. I just rub from whatever angle seems most comfortable and don't worry much about direction. A sag indicates to me that I didn't roll the last coat out enough. My goal is to finish a coat thin and even enough that it won't sag, fast enough that the brush strokes from tipping can heal and self-level before the paint stiffens-up and to end up with a smooth enough job that there is nothing to be gained by sanding part of it away. It doesn't always work out perfectly that way, but it ain't half bad.

[RodB]

Since I have been tipping horizontally I do notice very very small strokes/sags...but it feels smooth and looks fine unless you look very close. Even then, the marks you notice look like minimal brush marks.

I will try your orientation of tipping vertically this next session, and forget the sanding. Overall I have applied very thin coats but I can see horizontal tipping has the disadvantage of possible sags. Well, its getting light....I'm going out right now and try your way. I'll let you know.

RB

[Tom Lathrop]

Todd and others,

It seems to me that you are only talking about non LPU paints. The process and time lags that are being quoted would never prevent a dry edge with the 2 part polyurethanes. Much of what has been said transfers to PLU's, like using the roller to get a thin even coat but, unless the fresh paint is faded into the older section, you will still get a dry edge. This seems to eliminate vertical tipping on the side of a boat. Adding sufficient reducer (thinner) helps retard drying but LPU skims over so fast that it is often necessary on large surfaces to have two people shoulder to shoulder, with one rolling and the other tipping.

Am I not seeing your method correctly?

[Wild Wassa]

Some things that I pay particular attention to when I paint are ... and Stephen Hutchins said it all, with his simplicity. It is all about speed ... and not overstroking or overworking the paint. When I roll I don't find a need to tip, I roll really hard, more like a squeegee than a roller ... there isn't enough paint anywhere to tip. Thin is best I find, with many individual coats applied.

Further to Stephen's comments (not that simple correct advice needs over engineering but I will).

The surface temperature of what is to be painted, should be 3 degrees C above the Dew Point. Any lower than that, uneven gloss levels and a possible build up of condensation on the newly painted surface can result.

It is also not advised that paint is applied when the RH is above 85%, 70% or below is best, again same problomos can occur with slow skinning or from rapid temperature loss. If you are spraying water to lay down the dust do it well ahead of time to make sure that the internal RH has not increased over the external RH. If painting indoors.

Keep within the manufacturer's temperature guidelines. Closer to the average guideline is best for most, rather than painting at the extremes (although I like painting at the bottom end, as I'm a polyurethane user mostly. Poly is totally unforgiving unlike other media. Cold temps can cause problems with poly from the yellowing of isocyanate curing agents when too cold). This is most important in OZ, as everything is extreme where I paint, especially the surface fineness. I've no idea what an average temperature is over here.

If all the above are not working for me, it doesn't matter how good a painter I think I am.

Warren.

ps, I added a bit more to my post this morning, as I was too tired from fairing boats last night. Good painting needs much good prep and with a uniform scratch pattern per coat (if physically keying). Otherwise the paint will not draw from the brush or roller well, nore coat evenly.

[ 08-07-2005, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[RodB]

We are talking about Alkyd enamels and also Brightsides, etc too.

Well, I just applied another coat on my topsides and rolled both horizontally and vertically just to get the paint on and even, then tipped vertically. It seemed to work fine as long as I made sure to overlap the rolling on the last swath of paint. I prefer tipping horizontally and fading the new paint into the old with the foam brush... but I do have visible (although very shallow) horizontal brush marks.

I just applied my last coat tipping vertically and it seems fine, the fading just has to be a little different, so I just overlapped rolled and then tipped from gunnel to chine. I still have visible very shallow horizontal brush/tipping marks from my previous first coats, although the paint job looks pretty uniform. From 5 feet away she looks great (Kirby's white semi-gloss).

My problem is in 80 degrees plus (temp may or may not be the problem) is that when I used paint that is not thinned or thinned very little, I think the brush marks from the foam brush are worse. As I thin the paint with mineral spirits, it becomes about as thin as half and half, then the brush marks go away mostly and the paint seems to lay down better.

To be brutally honest like Shane always says, I have achieved a fairly uniform application but still it does not look like it was sprayed... I have applied an entire coat at about 80 degrees and on these vertical surfaces I think the brush marks (foam brush tipping) were too strong until I cut the paint about 20% with mineral spirits. My best attempts with this white paint looks great standing back about 7-10 feet, but looking close you do see horizontal brush marks, although very very shallow.

I wish I had tried it vertically just to see the difference. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but rolling and tipping with paint even approaching full strength was making for brush marks that were unacceptable.

I want to try a test just rolling and tipping with paint say cut about 5% and really spread it thin, I think I applied the uncut paint too thick, I need to concentrate really rolling it on very thin.

Probably, my main mistake has been just applying too much paint, I just need to keep trying. I am going to quit on my topsides now as I am not that displeased that I would want to sand it down to complete flatness and repaint, I will do that next time. I want to launch by months end and the paint job is pretty uniform. She looks pretty good for now. ...just slightly perceptable horizontal brush marks up close. .... ie., she looks like a boat hand painted. This painting ain't easy.

RB

[ 08-07-2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[pcford]

RodB,

It sounds like you are making progress on your project. Great. To become an expert at painting takes time and experience. As someone up in the thread noted, it is ultimately impossible to teach someone how to do it. There are just so many things that you have to feel and experience.

However, in the thread there are several bits of advice which, if followed, would send you off in an incorrect direction.

1. Always tip horizontally. If you are raw beginner, you may have less runs if you tip vertically. However, if you are having runs it means that you are having problems with uneven application. The paint must work with gravity to flow out properly. This necessitates horzontal tipping.

2. Paint clearly DOES continue to flow after you lay it down. A quality paint will level for some time after it is applied. Not sure of the time, but certainly a couple hours.

3. Rolling avoids uneven application of paint. Notice that I did not say too thick application of paint. Paint will sag over an area of too thin beneath it. That same thickness will not sag elsewhere if the film were even. You need to work the paint around. I try to work an area very roughly three by three feet. Roll up and down and then fore and aft. Then tip fore and aft. Do not try to work a single narrow band. (!) It is helpful to have one person roll and another tip. Four eyes will spot problems better.

4. If you are having trouble with runs you are most likely applying the the paint too thick and/or unevenly. Again, and I can't say this too many times, better too thin than too thick. A holiday will be picked up next time. Runs, curtains and loogies may take days to dry so that they can be sanded out properly. Avoid at all costs!!!

5. Kirby's paint is part of your problem. A more sophisticated paint would have retardants which would make your life easier. It is has been years and years since I used Penetrol. However, I recall that thinning to an extreme level as you are forced to do with Penetrol with the Kirby's paint will change the nature of the film, not to mention the color.

5. One _always_ sands between coats. It is an essential part of the process. You can toss on paint over a partially cured paint layer if painting a tugboat.

6. Again, if you are having trouble, try using a foam brush. Using a foam brush yields a much thinner film. Maybe 2/3rds normal. However, you will tend to have fewer problems with runs. Oh, and keep a dry foam brush in your back pocket to wipe up runs.

Though I am primarily a boatwright, I do a lot of finish work. The suggestions above are by no means peculiar to me, they are used with most professionals that I know.

Painting is difficult. No need to make it more difficult by following some of the misplaced suggestions in the thread. Painting is, finally, a Zen process. You have to get "a good fat coat" to get good leveling and gloss. Yet you have to stop short of thick enough to run. It is a delicate balancing process; it takes concentration. Don't just slap the paint on as in house painting. Use good materials. Prepare and sand carefully between coats. Turn the radio off. Go carefully. Think and concentrate.

[RodB]

PCFORD,

I really appreciate the tips, thanks.

My first two coats/attemps were with a 3" foam brush, rolling about a 6-8 inch swath vertically, then tipping horizontally. I got pretty excited because of the uniformity and smoothness of the coat I was able to apply... and the nice blending of each swath of new paint into the old...but I did notice slight horizontal brush strokes which did not go away and a few of these had a bit of sag. The paint was thinned only with mineral spirits, about 20%...the paint being the consistency of half and half milk. I tried to avoid applying too much paint, but I need to do better. I was using a 3 1/2" roller pad ( normal 7" foam pad cut in two).

The overall paint coat feels real smooth but these visible strokes must be in the thousandths in thickness because they are very shallow. You have to get fairlly close to see them, but standing a few feet away she looks great.

I can see the horizontal tipping allows for great blending to the old paint and it all looks like it was applied at the same time. I just need to get an exact fix on the amount of paint to roll on and the amount of thinner to add. I also think at 78-90 drgrees I could use a retarder so the paint would have more time to settle. One final point, I would think the white color makes it harder to see all the problem areas so it looks better than it really is.

Note: I would have to spend awhile sanding with say 180 or 220 grit to totally get rid of the brush marks... I did do that between coat one and two, but with coat three the marks were back again due to my technique. I just haven't gotten it down good enough to look like it was sprayed... I have the horizontal brush marks even with no sag... I must figure out how to get rid of them completely....they are just enough to be visible at about 3 feet.

The factor that makes me think I need to add more thinner is the depth of the brush strokes when tipping ...with thicker paint they seem deeper and don't seem to settle very quick or easy...so I thin the paint more and the paint lays down better and the strokes disappear more. I definitely feel the solvent is a double edged sword, where it at some point causes the paint to dry faster. Maybe just lots of Penetrol only would work best...that has been suggested before. I have not tried just rolling and tipping with say 30 % Penetrol only as an additive. I did try painting with Penetrol only...with a good badger brush and was able to get great results on small strips on my decks, between non-skid sections. I would not want to try that on larger areas. Also, horizontal decks are much easier than vertical topsides.

I may end up just applying Brightsides atop the Kirby's if it will lay down better...but it is glossy and my present topsides are a nice semi-gloss... and looks pretty good. I may do a test later.

Hell, I may get finished, more or less, and still not know what I'm doing as far as painting goes...you just keep trying until it looks aceptable, even if done wrong, sooner or later even a blind hog finds an acorn...but I am getting a little wiser in regard to painting. I just need to keep trying variations until I find a combination of methodology that works for me.

RB

[ 08-07-2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by RodB:
"We are talking about Alkyd enamels and also Brightsides, etc too."

So was I. I was talking about all paint bases, they all have some things in common. I just added the bit about poly (in my first post) for fellow poly users.

Each morning I go here firstly to be on the ball. This is what painting is really about.

http://www.canberrayachtclub.com.au/...nt_weather.htm

It tells me how my painting day will be ... I often refer to this page a few times during the day if I feel changes. I have a small weather station to check my temps indoors.

So Mate, as a photographer, do you hold +/- 1/5th of a degree with your working chemistry and water bath them, right down to knowing the value of 0.1 above base plus fog when you process, maintain +/- 1/5th of a stop with your exposures, right down to +/- 1/10th on your spot meter so that you can determine the last hint of shaddow detail needed, so the processed gamma will give it to you and you have calibrated everything no doubt and know all the relationships between film speeds, shutter speeds and apetures, right down to the last level of known reciprocity and which CC filters are needed with each professional film type that you use ... and an 18% reflectance means a lot more to you than just a mid grey does to most others, right? ... so it is when I paint but I do not need such fine parts of a degree for temperatures that your trade employs. Success is in employing the very fine details when I'm chasing accurate repeatable results.

Do you know the manufacturer's advised thickness for each coat of paint that you use? It is details like this that will raise the bar for you.

Warren.

[ 08-08-2005, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[RodB]

I don't know the recommended mil thickness per applicaton of Kirbys, I'm trying to work that out by trial and error. Even if I knew a specific number, I still would just have to "do it" to get a feel for what works.

Right now I'd settle for an application technique that provides a finish with virtually no brushmarks...within a reasonably warm temperature range. ...although I am beginning to think my topsides are looking better every day. Perhaps my initial evaluation was just too close up and unreasonable... the more I look at the surfaces the more I realize it is quite even and uniform and you have to look close up to see the very shallow horizontal brush marks.

What are some of the specific problems encountered with higher humidity besides the paint just taking longer to dry? Can humidity have any causative effect on brush marks showing up?

One good thing about this is I can at any time in the future tape the waterline and repaint the topsides with a decent amount of prep. I definitely expect to improve in future painting like waiting for cool temperatures, etc.

Rb

[Wild Wassa]

Rod, I had written in my previous post (but removed it), being a visual person you probably see a lot more than most and your paint job is probably stunning.

When you apply paint to a surface the paint absorbs energy (heat) which then allows the solvents sufficient energy to evaporate. This dissipating of the solvents causes the surface to cool down. You don't want too rapid a cool down, of the paint. Too much water vapour in the surrounding air, from high humidity can condensate on the surface and cause a rapid cooling down. This will give the paint an uneven surface gloss because different areas of a boat will cool down at different rates.

When you paint a boat you can't always be sure that the temperatures are uniform on the boat, to start with. If a boat is outside especially. Indoors, air conditioning or heating the room can give big surface changes. Or from a flow of air near a door or window can be effecting ... if what you are painting is close to a uniform temperature with a lower RH than 85% the entire paint job will be more uniform no matter what level of skill the painter has.

When using waterbased polyurethane paints, which skin within a few seconds this is particulary important, it is important to have the starting temperature cool and uniform for both the surface and paint. You don't get to paint a third stroke if temperatures are up with the poly and the speed at which I paint is important. That's why I paint with poly at the cooler end of the manufacturer's recommended temperatures to give me a chance. But too cold a temperature causes other problems with poly, like discolouration and not just problems with the surface gloss.

It is a hard balancing act for all painters generally in both summer and winter, if surface quality is important to them.

Warren.

[ 08-08-2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[RodB]

Warren,

The paint job is getting better the more perhaps "realistic" I become as I continue to evaluate quality and whats the best you can expect. Perhaps my expectations were unrealistic at the start, I'm trying to get a handle on exactly just how good I should expect it to end up. I can see really "brushless" results with my badger brush and paint only cut with Penetrol. I don't know if thats possible with larger areas, and besides, that was on a horizontal surface.

PCFORD,
I would think it very difficult to roll an area say two to three square feet and then tip the entire area with good results... at least in my temperatures. Please reinterate your comments on size of area to roll and tip at one time. I ask this because I have seen several descriptions on the process where they only recommend rolling a 6-10 inch swath and then tipping horizontally. It was compared to applying epoxy, where you only mix 3-4 oz at a time, roll about 10 square inches and tip with a foam brush....only easier with paint. With the paint you are keeping the container thinned appropriately and only pouring paint out on the flat board/roller pan as you apply it, thus keeping the paint, unlike epoxy, fresh as newly mixed. I had no problems getting very good level flat results when applying epoxy to my bottom and side panels...although they were laying horizontally on sawhourses. but the working time of epoxy controls how you must apply it... paint is affected lots in warm temps.

Thanks

Rod

[ 08-08-2005, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[pipefitter]

On my Simmons I found that the badger brush works better because I think the tips of the brush seem to stay more wet than the foam. It seems to hold just the right amount of residual paint and doesnt just ride on the surface. I am painting under a tent and I dont see any brush marks until I turn on the flourescent light.And if anyone says anything about my brush marks after all this work they are getting a beating. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Also,I had a hard time finding an art store here with a big enough sable brush so my gfriend gave me a fat little makeup brush which is perfect for radiuses inside and outside ones.One pass is all it takes.The brush is round to start with so it fits perfectly.I tip those first.I am thinking the slight orange peel left by the foam roller without tipping looks fine as well.Very small texture and hardly noticeable and it is more consistent a surface than the tipped.I haven't had any problems with air marks from bursted roller bubbles.Looks almost like a factory enamel car finish. I will try the tipping thru the process but if I can't get the results I am after I will leave the orange peel.Hardly noticeable with the brightsides thinned at 10%. I have about the same climate as you do RodB.
I do feel fortunate with having lapstrake sides though.The 6" plank surface is very easy to manage one strake at a time.

[RodB]

I think my rolling and tipping experience here was kinda like getting a glimpse through the window of "marvelously successful painting world". I can see the potential of the method but have to work out the fine details. I'm almost there in this 85 plus degree weather but I still have those fine horizontal brushmarks...

I have been thinking about the cause of the fine brush marks and can only come up with this: the paint was reduced too much and the solvent made the fairly thin layer of paint dry too soon, thus it did not "settle" enough to make the brush marks go completely away.

All in all, I feel strongly that it would be extremely difficult to match the smoothness and uniformity of my Roll & Tip topsides with a bristle brush job but I still keep contemplating sanding her down to flat and trying again for an even better finish. I just hate to have to spend $65 for another gallon of semi-gloss Kirbys, wait over a week for it... fight the weather and rain, etc... Besides, she looks pretty good from a few feet away. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If I decide I can live with a glossy finish at some later date...I am just going to have to give the glossy Brightsides a try on my topsides. I think I used up about 1/4 gal to apply one coat to my entire topsides, front and rear transoms, and sponsons, etc. So, it would make sense to buy a gallon ( $76 )plus the $13 quart can of reducer.

RB

[ 08-10-2005, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[pipefitter]

Take a look at the finish on a glass boat. Even the expensive ones.The gelcoat is smooth,yes but the hull itself is crap.More waves than the water it will be riding in and they pay 30k on up for this.I am sure your boat looks fine and brush marks however faint still add that hand made look. The only true way to avoid it I am thinking is spraying but then,might as well bought a glass boat. Paint it and go fishing. I bet you forget about the brush marks. Mine is getting whatever it has with the paint I bought.I am not going to keep trying for perfection.Time to get it in the water. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Use it for the summer.If it bothers you,scuff it and paint it in the winter when the temp is lower and the humidity is less.Plus can get an idea how long the paint is going to last before going to all the trouble first.Will probably need some touchup by then anyway.

[ 08-11-2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[RodB]

Yea, I had decided what you have said makes a lot of sense. I'll take photos of the finished paint job and post them later on.

I also had someone mention that semi-gloss paint does not have the settling properties of glossy, and that that could be one factor in the minute horizontal brush strokes showing. I may go glossy next time but will really focus on a great prep job...

Hell, I may paint her a different color on the topsides every year or so... I have been trying to get up the courage to paint the topsides Herreshoff green...but the white looks so nice.
RB

[ 08-11-2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Stephen Hutchins]

Sorry I was kind of a jerk in my earlier post. It sounds like it's the paint your using. Most paints that are good for roll and tip will actually recomend the method on the can. If you want really high gloss next time with spray like finish, try Interlux "Toplac" with foam roller and foam tip brush. Hint: the tip brush can be used to even out the coat as well as tip off. If your way thick after your roll, just use more pressure with the foam brush, wiping excess into a spare can. Also, flip the brush 180 degrees after each pass. Mostly, yacht painting is about adapting quickly to ever changing circumstances, which can only be accomplished by focusing your thoughts to the task at hand. If your working at the best speed, your arms will get tired quickly from the repeated motions so it is best to be able to do all tasks with both hands. The same holds true with carpentry. Don't take this advice to the extreme though, or you'll wind up with a bad back as I have.

[ 08-11-2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Hutchins ]

[RodB]

Thanks SH, I have been squeezing paint out of my tipping foam brush as often as possible, which I think helps too.

I think it boils down to two possible reasons the slight brush marks did not go away...One, the paint was thinned too much and considering the heat...just plain dried too quick... or Two, the semi-gloss just doesn't settle as nice as glossy and that was a contributing factor.
RB

[ 08-11-2005, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

I certainly don't claim to be a painting expert, and granted, you're having to paint in difficult circumstances, but I still believe that part of the reason you continue to get brush marks is finishing off with horizontal tipping. Where else can small amounts of uneven buildup go but to settle into horizontal ridges? Check the instructions on the Interlux painting guide:
http://www.yachtpaint.com/USA/boat_p.../paint_pro.pdf

Same thing from their "Applying Varnish" article by Pete Mathews (Interlux sales rep) on a different part of the site:
"For large areas, rolling and tipping, applying the varnish with a roller then tipping it off with a brush is also an acceptable method. Be sure to apply the varnish as evenly as possible with the roller, and then finish by tipping off lightly with a vertical stroke. "

I doubt I ever would have tipped a boat vertically unless it said to do it that way in the Gougeon Brothers literature, as it seems to be a rather unnatural direction to move a brush on a horizontal boat hull, and they seem to have a fair amount of experience building and painting boats.

[pipefitter]

You're right,semi-gloss doesn't settle as good as the glossy. Same with the primer. But then being semi-gloss,it doesnt show alot of other things like glossy does either so it is a toss up. I bet you're boat looks fine. I used to be around alot of wood boats and I never even cared to notice if there was brush marks. Fish don't care either.Thing is,we've been staring at these things so much we notice every little thing.Noone that come over sees anything that I do. They just say "wow,nice boat".

[RodB]

Hey Todd, I read the tips from Interlux and I think they suggested tipping both ways, with vertical being last...

I applied my final coat (4th coat) with vertical tipping and it was fine, I just didn't sand the 3rd coat enough to get rid of all marks. Overall, she looks pretty good, and next time I paint my topsides I will have done some experiments to be sure to get optimal results. Sanding between coats was with a rubber block and 220 grit...a very quick once over the hull sides.

I have found that about half the folks out there recommend horizontal tipping, and the other half say vertical. The boatbuilder/designer of my boat, Tracy O'brien, has always rolled vertically and tipped horizontally...and gotten great results...But he has pretty much used glossy paint, and he suggested the semi-gloss was probably part of the problem as it just doesn't settle as well as glossy paint.

I still intend to try four things as tests...One, thin the paint with turps ( with less thinner than before...which would offer a longer "working time") ... Two, add some linseed oil to increase "paint settling time", Three, in all tests, roll the paint on very thin (less paint than I have been putting on), as you suggest in your methodology and Four, just mix the paint with Penetrol only and roll her on very even and thin before tipping.

I will experiment until I get optimal results, but for now, I think my topsides are probably much better than I originally expected or thought. I will also try Brightsides and/or toplac in the future when I decide to go for glossy.

RB

[ 08-11-2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[pcford]

RodB,

Sorry I didn't get back to you with your email and posts. Busy with paying boat job.

I really don't know what to say. You are getting brush strokes with semigloss paint..............

The problem sir, is the paint. I told you this at the beginning. Easypoxy will be....much easier. Brightsides is good too. I prefer Easypoxy and am used to it.

I really can't tell you how to use Kirby's...I am not familar with it. My guess is that it is not the easiest paint to apply. Nobody uses it here in Seattle. It does not have proper thinners to adjust for environment.

I roll vertically in a kind of W pattern. Then tip horizontally. Rolled area is about 3' x 3'. I can't imagine how you can distribute the paint evenly if you are just rolling one pass.

A lot of this stuff is by feel. It is finally impossible to tell how how to do it...beyond a certain point you just have to do it.

Starting with less than optimal materials has made life more difficult for you.

Toss the Kirby's. Or maybe Cleek will buy it.

[RodB]

I would think it was most likely operator error before blaming the paint...and I do really prefer the semi-gloss finish over glossy. ..anyway, I'm out of the white Kirby's and the topsides are done. I didn't know semi-gloss would not "settle" as easy as gloss finish paints, I guess you have to use alkyd enamels if you want a semi-gloss. I definitely have gotten plenty of feedback on how easy the single part Marine Polyurathane's are to work with... ( Interlux Brightsides and Petit Easypoxy, etc).

On my Kirby's... I also should have spent more time testing techniques in these 80-90 degrees temps... before starting the real painting. The light gray Kirby's is easier to apply than the white. I am convinced that if I was starting over, I would be able to achieve very good results, easier... and would consider name brand marine Polyurathanes for my topsides. I still would want a quality semi-gloss for my cockpit interior, decks and console.

Thanks for the tips, believe me I will consider all reasonable techniques until I come up with a system and paint that works for me. . . and will also apply some gloss finish in the future, ie Petit EAsy Poxy and/or Brightsides.

The boat looks pretty good overall, and only the topsides gave me any doubts...which I am realizing are probably much better than I originally thought. Photos to follow later on.

RB

[ 08-12-2005, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yes, I saw that (assuming that's what they meant with their rather vague illustration). I can't ever remember a paint job where I really felt like there was time to tip-out twice. It will be interesting to see what kind of results you get with Brightside. It's certainly possible that much of the reason that I get good results that don't look like crap is that it lends itself well to the technique. I've never rolled Kirby Paint, so I can't compare the two and how they roll and tip. I did try Easypoxy once and my results weren't as good as with Brightside. The paint seemed thicker and harder to control, but I didn't do enough of it to really say that it wouldn't work just as well with practice. I did try West Marine's house brand of dark green on a canoe once. It was a beautiful color, but seemed runny and splotchy by comparison. I put on a couple coats, didn't like the look and sanded it off. Maybe three or four coats would have worked fine, but after two it still looked pretty bad.

I saw a quote on one of the painting websites that stuck in my mind. It was in reference to wooden/traditional boats and trying to achieve a perfect paint job and was something like "Do you really want your boat to look like it has been sprayed with plastic?"

[pipefitter]

Even with regular exterior alkyd paint the gloss takes the longest to dry,semigloss is next and ofcourse the flat dries the fastest.The longer it stays wet, the longer it has time to flow. Just for the hell of it I added flattening agent to the gloss and it dries quite a bit faster.Also it shows more brush marks.With the gloss one part urethane I just added 10% brushing liquid and it works perfectly.Brush marks are small enough to where you pretty much have to put your face up to it to see it and with the right light.I have to look low at an angle to see them.I still think brush marks look ok as long as they are neat and it doesnt show the lap marks.I remember thinking that if I wanted a perfect gloss job I was going to have our fibreglass guy spray it with Imron.I am going to use alkyd semigloss for the inside from Ben Moore.With the brush marks.

[RodB]

Thanks for the encourgement. What semi-gloss are you going to use from Ben Moore? I have been thinking of trying Kush Paints semi-gloss marine enamel.

RB

[pipefitter]

Not sure yet.Probably the satin impervo.I already have interlux's interdeck for the walk areas.I will just use the BM for the sides and the interior trim pieces/frames.I saw a bench on a dock that was painted with it and it looks fine after a couple years.Something without glare.Most of the boats at work are white inside and what a killer on the eyes.I may drizzle a antiglare pattern on the white interdeck that matches the color of the interior sides.Also,I know a builder that uses BM satin inside and out and his holds up for a few years.He isn't the first one that told me about BM being good paint.He claimes Sears was his 2nd choice.I think we overthink paint quality when it comes to alkyds.I am also thinking that top grade exterior house paints is probably as good as marine alkyds. The ingredients read the same on the cans.
I had one painter tell me to add topcoat to my primer at 50/50 to keep the 2 closer in flexibility instead of the primer being so different from the topcoat and to aid in color uniformity.Also he said to leave the orange peel texture in any coats that are going to be color sanded as a depth guide to sand by.I didnt tip my primer coats.

[ 08-12-2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[RodB]

I did check on the primer sold by Kirby's, and he did say it was very similar to their paint...and suggested just thinning their paint would be awful close to their primer (which costs the same as their paint BTW).

I used the high build sandable primer described earlier, because it dried so damn fast, adhered so well, and sanded so beautifully. I think it really resulted in a very tough coat to paint on and a great barrier between the topcoat and the epoxy. I especially like its bonding characteristics to the sanded epoxy and from what Tracy Obrien told me, it is a great primer for alkyd enamels and polyurathanes.

What about using CPES as a sealer and then painting right on top of it per the usual recommendatons. I would think that using CPES would be the optimal method of protecting wood that is going to be painted only (no epoxy involved). I have about 1/3 gallon of both part A and Part B CPES left now... and have really liked it for protecting wood in several instances, especially when I cut holes thru my deck for hardware installation where I use the CPES to seal the end grain before applying two coats of epoxy. It is good insurance and does give one a little peace of mind. Sealing through-hole endgrain is one of the main uses I have had for CPES, and also I used it on glassed bilge panels, before glassing for a little insurance.

There have been some very interesting anecdotal experiences on this forum where CPES treated wood that was painted did great over time compared to wood that was only primed and painted.

I turned a custom riflemaker/gunsmith on to CPES and he uses it on stocks now before applying finishes. He has tested it extensively on many materials (hardboard/masonite) and woods... and simply loves it for rifle stocks...he feels the stock could not be better protected than applying CPES as the initial application to bare wood. And paint etc sure sticks to it great.

If I were building a non-encapsulated boat of wood, I think I would definitely use CPES prior to painting where practical.

RB

[ 08-12-2005, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[pipefitter]

I used I-lux's two part epoxy primer and it is also nice to work with. My boat is sealed with epoxy. I took the thin epoxy and thinned it with denatured alcohol and it disappeared into the wood alot like sanding sealer.Then 3 coats of thin non blush.Lets face it,our trailered boats have nothing to worry about with a little maintenence. I used BS1088 Meranti for everything except the sheer cap.There I used DF exterior ply glassed.I wont ever use fir ply again because it took so much fairing work.The scraps of BS1088 that have been sitting outside unprotected for 2 years now are still sound. These boats will outlive us.Alot of the rot worries posted on here are from ppl with boats staying in the water.I think for trailered boats we are in good shape.
When I told the old builder I know what I was putting on my boat, he claimed I would spend way more time repairing dings and stuff way more than any rot.

[ 08-12-2005, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[RodB]

I built my boat from the best Okoume I had seen (asked and received samples from several suppliers...was purchasing 30 sheets), the top two being Malvaux (France) and the Greek stuff from Edensaw. Direct comparison of the samples made it quite easy to select the best quality plywood. The Malvaux was Lloyds certified for $100 more so I went with that.

With total encapsulation and any surface exposed to the elements being glassed, this trailered boat will be around long after I'm gone. I will use this skiff to become proficient at painting in the future as I will get practice keeping her in good shape.

RB

[ 08-13-2005, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[capt jake]

Well I guess I still am not doing it right, or it's the product ath I am using.

I have nearly a gallon on Ben Moore M22 left from my first attempt at roll and tip on another boat. I am painting a very small dinghy. I thinned it, added a bit of Penetrol, rolled it with an ultra fine foam roller and tipped it off.

At first I was using a foam brush for tipping and got fair results. Next coat I used my Ox Hair brush; this left 'nice' brush marks in the paint (as happened on the previous boat). Another coat with the foam has evened it out a bit but not to my satisfaction.

I will wet sand it smooth tommorow (again) and try it again. This time thinnning it a bit more with Penetrol.

No wonder I had somebody come to the shop and spray my sailboat! I need to buy one and start spraying.......

[pipefitter]

I got rid of the brush marks. I would rather see the brushmarks than the sanding scratches. Next time I am just going to paint like I always have on nice trim work. Alot can be said for a nice neat brush job.Other than that, it seems the only real other option is spraying.The inbetween seems to be not worth the amount of prep and care.Oil base or Imron for me from now on.I have to say tho on I-lux's Brightsides. Really nice stuff to work with.Covers well even when thinned.Definitely not short on gloss.
RodB,I bet you are realizing that nearly any finish looks perfect in photo.A 50ft finish would look perfect in a picture as long as it was shiny it seems. So you have to wonder why noone is confessing to brushmarks or scratches. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 08-18-2005, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[RodB]

So far I have been able to achieve the expected results in all facets on my boat, but this painting thing has been a challenge, ie, the topsides. I am pretty much very happy with all the interior and decks done in light gray, and brushed... as the horizontal surfaces came out great. But, these areas are long and narrow and easy to move along keeping a wet line. I was also able to get a good finish on my console, which took a few attempts but came out great with brushing the center sections and rolling and tipping the sides.

I had a small blemish about the size of a half dollar (small area where I burned through the primer) ... that I couldn't retouch out, so I sanded and repainted one side again with Kirbys (two coats) considering all the factors discussed in this thread... . I tried to really apply it thin per normal procedure. I cannot seem to get rid of the very shallow brush lines from the foam brush. I tried three separate surfaces on my sponsons with vertical tipping and it looked a bit better but still showed some foam brush vertical marks.

It may be the semi-gloss is the main problem, but I 'm not seeing this white Kirbys semi-gloss paint "settle out" on vertical surfaces ... its just drying too fast. BTW, I did roll and tip the vertical sides of my rather large console, rolling horizontally, and tipping vertically with fairly thick Kirby's light gray paint... top to bottom... and it came out fine. No brush marks at all and no runs or sags. Could it be that its just the color of the paint and the fact that its semi-gloss??? I have been told that different colors behave differently during application.

Well, I'm out of Kirby's semi-gloss white now and if I decide to repaint my topsides I will try it with the white semi-gloss Petit Easypoxy ...the cost is $100/gal at West M plus $20 for thinner. ...or just try Brightsides glossy. I'm trying to decide if I want to spend the money and time (another weekend gone) to prep, retape, and repaint my topsides. You hate to spend a couple of years on a project and not achieve a pretty nice finish, but on the other hand, even with the marks that show its a pretty nice 3 foot paint job in white semi-gloss and besides, the bangs and bumps that will start to take place once fishing begins will make for an "imperfect" paint job straight away in the near furture.

I definitely have a sense that the light gray Kirby's semi-gloss is easier to get a smooth finish (settles better) than the white.

When I tried to apply the white with Penetrol only, the paint was just too thick, and would not spread out evenly without difficulty. I found that adding enough turps to get a consistency of half and half milk was the only way I could apply a really thin coating that seemed to stay wet long enough... and then the paint failed to settle out enough. Perhaps at 70 degrees, with the paint cut much less, I could get better results.


If I try the Petit Easypoxy or Brightsides and the "pot life" makes all the difference in getting smooth results... than PCFORD will have been right, I should have used a more modern paint from the start, especially in these temperatures and it will have been lots of effort going this route.

RB

[ 08-18-2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[pipefitter]

I am having to wait until the hull is cooler to touch which is right before dusk.I have maybe 2 hrs to paint in a day with the same climate as you are speaking of.Saturday it rained at about 2 pm. Stopped early enough for the sun to dry things up real good yet didnt get back to as hot as it was and I had a good paint afternoon.Here there is a fine line between when it is just cool enough to when all the bugs come out.Painting at night would be ideal temp if not for all the bugs attracted to the lights. Sunday it rained alot longer than usual and the air outside was like soup.So now I have the top done and one side.All I needed was an hr but no,could cut the humidity with a knife.
Now I am painting it and going to refresh it when it gets more towards December if need be.Sofar it looks pretty darn good.The horizontal laps came out perfectly.Except for the sanding scratches.The Sheer deck came out nicely too as far as brush marks are concerned.