Tahiti Ketch - Any thoughts?

[lilou]

Hello all,

Long time lurker....first time post!

I have been looking to buy a wooden sailboat for some time, and have a pretty good idea of the type of design that I am after.

More specifically: traditional, comfortable, ocean capable. I have been looking at Angelman's, which I absolutely love but are hard to find.

Recently, I came across a Tahiti ketch, which was really amazing. My only question is: Do they really sail as bad as some people say?

It seems that the opinions vary greatly between "safe, reliable capable ocean cruiser" to "can't get out of it's own way, uncomfortable rolling motion, etc."

I would like to clarify that speed isn't a big concern to me, as long as it doesn't take an act of God to make it sail!

Could some one shed some light on this?

Also, another slight concern: Planking is Doug Fir, fastened with galvanized fasteners....Does that spell out trouble?

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Hwyl]

They are slow, there are some with bigger rigs.

[TR]

Do they really sail as bad as some people say?

As designed.....yes!

Keep looking for an Angleman Sea Spirit or Sea Witch, far better boat.

Tad

[goodbasil]

I've heard they are slow even to people who just want to live aboard.
I put a post under People & Places a few days ago and the responders commented that they were slow. That seems to be the common opinion.
On the other hand they can be built cheaply. A fella I knew said he built one for $750- thats motor sails wood stove labour everything.
However that was during the depression.

[lilou]

Keep looking for an Angleman Sea Spirit or Sea Witch, far better boat.

Tad

Thanks for the advice! I absolutely love Angelman's, but they are so hard to find!

There is a Sea Spirit in Port Orchard, but it's in sorry shape. The interior is stunning, but I don't have the skills to undertake that kind of restoration. It needs some serious replanking, a lot of rot....

I am going to see a Moonbeam in January....a variation on the Sea Witch, marconi rig and more modern rigging.

I guess it's worth hanging in there to find exactly what you want? Or is it just being unreasonable? A bit like finding a needle in a haystack?

[lilou]

On the other hand they can be built cheaply. A fella I knew said he built one for $750- thats motor sails wood stove labour everything.
However that was during the depression.

That's pretty funny!

[rbgarr]

That's about $11K in today's dollars. Probably didn't include an allowance for his own labor.

They are slow, but the one I sailed on rolled along okay in the Tradewinds with the twin jibs set. Otherwise it was 'Westerbreeze' (engine assisted) for any course above close-hauled (into the wind).

[djn]

Here is the unofficial webpage for the Sea Witch boats. There are a number of them for sale. Cheers.......great boat.

http://www.heritech.com/seawitch/seawitch.htm

[Jay Greer]

I recieved, rigged and made ready for sale both the Angelman Sea Witch and Mayflower ketches that were built in the Orient for sale in S. CA. The boats are reasonable and comfortable sailers both for living aboard and extensive cruising. Hugh Angleman and Charlie Davies designed a square sail for the boats that has proven to be successful on several of the boats, even though most of the buyers never opted for that option. I am also very familiar with the Tahiti Ketch that most of us consider to be a very poor performer; it's only saving grace being that the commodious hull provides enough space for sea stores to keep the crew from starving to death before reaching port!
The "West Sail" version has often been referred to as the "Worst Sail!"
Jay

[rbgarr]

Or the 'Wet Snail'. My wife and I sailed one during a part of our honeymoon and it was pretty disappointing boat all around IMO.

[robtcw]

Build new in Thailand or the Philippines.

[sv Lorelei]

On the one I've seen. Pretty salty boat, but even the owner said it takes 15 knots of wind just to get it moving. And the mizzen boom is a real widowmaker.

[djn]

Here is a FG knockoff. Cheers.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...+36&slim=quick

[lilou]

Here is the unofficial webpage for the Sea Witch boats. There are a number of them for sale. Cheers.......great boat.

http://www.heritech.com/seawitch/seawitch.htm

Thanks, I am familiar with that great website.

I actually tried to buy the Sea Spirit that's listed on the sale page, but the owner proved to be too difficult to deal with. Since there were no broker involved, the situation became overwhelming and we decided it was best to let it go.

It's a shame, it was a sweet little boat.

Got the message loud and clear on the Tahiti!! I guess we'll pass on it. It looked so salty and traditional, it's a shame they are so lousy.

Keep on looking!!

[Jay Greer]

Look for a boat that has good sailing qualities, one that will get you from point A to point B in a reasonable amount of time in comfort and safety. A racing boat will, often, tire and beat you to death as will a maverick design such as some of the awkward and fat, supposed, cruisers. The Good Boat Books by Roger Taylor have many examples and astute comments as to their design, usefulness and sailing qualities. Arm yourself with practical knowledge first and decide later as to what design will best fit your needs.
Jay

[Tom Hunter]

Your boat will cost you time, touble, money and pain.

It's all absolutely worth it if you love the boat. Hold out for the one you want.

[sv Lorelei]

Tahiti Ketches were pretty popular cruisers at one time. Back in the thirties quite a few of them left on circumnavigations. Some of them are due to arrive back in port soon!

[Ron Geisman]

I've sailed on Sea Mist, a Sea Witch ketch in the Wednesday beer cans in Newport Harbor (CA) and we were invariably the last boat to finish. Take a look at Herb Payson's book, Blown Away. It will give you a pretty good read on Anglemans. If that is what you ultimately decide is right for you, look around in southern California, as that is where many were originally built.

As for Tahiti ketches, Weston Farmer drew a set of plans for an updated version of the boat to be built in steel. However, his commentary of the design is worth reading as well as taking a good look at his revised sail plan which would be a good starting point for assessing the true performance of the boat. Slow isn't necessarily bad and both designs have certainly taken people further and in some comfort.

[Rukk]

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...=false&rid=108

There you go. Thats a good boat. I know because I own and am rebuilding one, built in '66 at the same yard.

She's got a fair bit of work that needs to be done, probably new decks, maybe cabintop (if your lucky), but check out that honduran mahogany planked hull, copper rivet fastened. Plus you get a brand new diesel in her and a complete interior. Much more worthy than a Tahiti, atleast in my biased oppinion.

-James

[kc8pql]

There is a Tahiti Ketch group on Yahoo if you want some feedback from people who actually own one.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tahiti_ketch/

[lilou]

Thank you all for your comments. It's been a great help.

I have no illusions about going fast in an Angelman.

I did read Herb Payson's books (even thought the 2nd one is really painful to get through) and I certainly got the idea that speed and weatherly was not the name of the game.
But I am more interested in comfort and safety, qualities than never seems to lack with H. A. designs.
In that respect, I am interested to see how that Moonbeam will turn out, as she has a slightly narrower beam along with a marconi rig, which should improve some of the Sea Witch's flaws.

Rukk,

I did look at that Sea Spirit in Port Orchard. It broke my heart. The interior was stunning. But the owner has seriously neglected it for several years.
Water has infiltrated where the deck steps up, by the bulkhead, and has consequently rotted those frames and about 10-15 planks on each side. The deck ply was shot also in that area.

I still have pictures of it.....

And that's just what was painfully obvious to my untrained eyes.....

If I had the skills, I would have bought it, but I was advised to stay away if I didn't know how to repair myself. Out of curiosity, I went and chatted with a couple of shipwright in Port Townsend, they quoted me around $800-1000 per plank!!

Rukk,

Is your Sea Spirit on the hard in Port Townsend? We saw one and were tempted to leave a note for the owner...the yard neighbour mentioned that the owner had done a lot of work on it.

kc8pql,

I did check out that Yahoo Group, but then had reservations about posting on it. I wasn't sure how objective the responses would be. I thought I would fait better on more neutral grounds, if there is sucha thing!

[Jay Greer]

I once asked Hugh Angleman why he designed the Sea Witch Ketch with such a fat beam length ratio, which, essentially made the boats less than speedy when going to weather. His answer was, "Every one powers over to Catalina Island on Friday afternoon, parties over the week end and broad reaches home on Sunday afternoon." That was the origional intended use for the boats. Only after "Sea Witch" gained great notiriety by winning the Trans Pac on corrected time did the design gain great appeal. Like a pretty lady with ample beam the boat is very comfortable and still will out sail the Tahiti Ketch.
Jay

[johnw]

When the Tahiti Ketch was designed, practical auxiliary engines were a new thing, and there were some who thought no one would sail to windward or in light air once they had the inboard. This may be why the Tahiti Ketch was designed with a sail area to displacement ratio that is worse than most motorsailers. Since most people who like to sail prefer not to use the engine if they don't have to, it may be that the premise behind the Tahiti Ketch is the wrong one for most sailors. There are enough that like it to keep people building it. You just have to decide whether you're one of them. I'd say if you like sailing to your destination, get something that sails better.

[kc8pql]

kc8pql,

I did check out that Yahoo Group, but then had reservations about posting on it. I wasn't sure how objective the responses would be. I thought I would fait better on more neutral grounds, if there is sucha thing!

OK, but I'd say a first hand opinion would be at least as valuable as third hand hearsay, which is mostly what you're getting here.

[Rukk]

Rukk,

I did look at that Sea Spirit in Port Orchard. It broke my heart. The interior was stunning. But the owner has seriously neglected it for several years.
Water has infiltrated where the deck steps up, by the bulkhead, and has consequently rotted those frames and about 10-15 planks on each side. The deck ply was shot also in that area.

I still have pictures of it.....

And that's just what was painfully obvious to my untrained eyes.....

If I had the skills, I would have bought it, but I was advised to stay away if I didn't know how to repair myself. Out of curiosity, I went and chatted with a couple of shipwright in Port Townsend, they quoted me around $800-1000 per plank!!

Rukk,

Is your Sea Spirit on the hard in Port Townsend? We saw one and were tempted to leave a note for the owner...the yard neighbour mentioned that the owner had done a lot of work on it.

Shame about the planks, but there is always a problem at that break in the deck. I've replaced a fair section of the big deckbeam at the back of the house (on the lower end of that), the back of the house itsself and done some signifigant repairs to the double sheer clamp directly below. Luckily my frames and planks are in great shape in that area.

$800-$1000 a plank? Whew. I believe the going rate in Vancouver is approximately half that (including materials). Hiring shipwrights is always a expensive undertaking though.

Nope my boat isnt the one at port townsend, I'm up on Gabriola Island BC. Although you SHOULD ask about that one. I think it has been mostly replanked and I believe there was a note up on a local notice board last time I was around PT, I think the asking price was 12k or 15k? Nothing too outragous.

Mostly it depends how much you love the boat. I bought mine a little over a year ago now with very little experience, less than no money, no tools, and no place to keep her let alone haul her out. I've been living aboard and rebuilding her at anchor with hand tools for around half a year, and with any luck next summer I'll be doing some local sailing. It'll be many years before she's in prime condition, but I've done lots of framing repairs now, most of the deck is new, systems are about 50% new. Think I'll have to wait for spring to get the deck glassed, get the trim back on, new toerails, do some minor planking repairs, some more framing, yadda yadda yadda. No end of fun. If everybody waited until they had experience money and time to start on a wooden boat there wouldn't be any more wooden boats. Find a boat you really love and make it work. All the best

James

[Flying Orca]

James - pix, man, pix! (and Merry Happy to your and yers!)

[Rukk]

James - pix, man, pix! (and Merry Happy to your and yers!)

Hey man, hows it going? Missed you on Raid 07, hope you can make Raid 08! Check the website for scheduling details, new locations and random excitement. www.shipyardraid.ca.

Pix, pix.. I'm sadly lacking in new pics, but heres one from when I first got the boat home (which was quite a adventure): http://rukk.stfu.ca/seaspirit.jpg

How is your boatbuilding project going? Sailing yet?

James

[JimD]

Hey, where'd it go?

[JimD]

Oops. Big pic. Sorry.

[Rukk]

Oops. Big pic. Sorry.

Yeah dude, there was a reason I linked it

//edit: There we go, should be a bit better now. Good thing I host my own pics.

[Flying Orca]

Hey man, hows it going? Missed you on Raid 07, hope you can make Raid 08! Check the website for scheduling details, new locations and random excitement. www.shipyardraid.ca.

Oh, I've been reading and wishing, no fear. 2008 isn't out of the question, but I would guess the bro won't be there, so I'll have to see if some other support vessel needs a cook'n'troubadour...?

Pix, pix.. I'm sadly lacking in new pics, but heres one from when I first got the boat home (which was quite a adventure): http://rukk.stfu.ca/seaspirit.jpg

Wow. That's about 47 different kinds of awesome. If I haven't said so already, my sincerest congratulations!

How is your boatbuilding project going? Sailing yet?

VERY funny. Seriously, worktime is limited 'cause it's 60 to 90 minutes each way (depending on traffic and weather) and I'm stooopid busy with my band. That and we didn't start planking 'til late September; the summer was a complete bust with everyone out of town at various times.

So we're very nearly done planking (maybe 8-10 strips to go), then we'll fair over my folks' trip to the Bahamas and glass when they come back. I'm hoping for sailing in '09.

But it's, you know, a process. Cheers!

P.S. nice domain.

[Clyderigged]

Well, I guess the adage "different ship, different long splice" still applies to a "little ship" like the Tahiti Ketch. I have a love affair with mine, so it becomes difficult to be objective....but then when has anything been other than subjective with boats. In my marina, Loch Lomond, in San Rafael, California there are 3 Angleman ketches ( 2 Sea Spirits and 1 called an A30 along with 2 Tahiti Ketches. I have sailed on all of them and like any vessel they have their own charms and pimples. The one thing I know is they all sail better than the HMAV BOUNTY replica I sail on across the Pacific---that was slow.

Here is a link to a wonderful saga of sailing a Tahiti Ketch Taihoa from New Zealand to San Francisco in the 1950's
http://www.thesquarerigger.com/files..._in_TAIHOA.pdf

and another saga of a Tahiti Ketch named Jaho and her passages. A very good read!!
http://members.tripod.com/~FOSBERY/areflx/jaho-1.html

Here are some photos I have come across on the web and from my own collection that paint a salty picture of the Tahiti Ketch:



















For a few more Tahiti photos
http://www.thesquarerigger.com/photo_files.html

[saphena]

this is kinda off the tahiti ketch topic, but with all the angelman posts i thought i'd include it here...please redirect if there's a better place...i bought a sea spirit last year and am slowly , lovingly dismantling her well, that's how it feels sometimes, but some things are going back together. question i have is, on the aft deck, i removed the rotted inner "bulwark" and found nearly all the frame heads rotten, but the deck doesn't go all the way across to the inside of the hull planking. when i rebuild this area, i am thinking of cutting the frames off at deck level so i can install a real covering board , and using shorter wood stanchions that would go maybe 2 or three planks below the covering board riveted to the planks to support the planking above the deck, and caulking all around, cutting better scuppers, and leaving the stanchions exposed, no inner bulwark planking. my dilemna is whether the covering board should also go on top of the hull planking, or butt up against it. i hear this is a problem area with many anglemans.

[Rukk]

this is kinda off the tahiti ketch topic, but with all the angelman posts i thought i'd include it here...please redirect if there's a better place...i bought a sea spirit last year and am slowly , lovingly dismantling her well, that's how it feels sometimes, but some things are going back together. question i have is, on the aft deck, i removed the rotted inner "bulwark" and found nearly all the frame heads rotten, but the deck doesn't go all the way across to the inside of the hull planking. when i rebuild this area, i am thinking of cutting the frames off at deck level so i can install a real covering board , and using shorter wood stanchions that would go maybe 2 or three planks below the covering board riveted to the planks to support the planking above the deck, and caulking all around, cutting better scuppers, and leaving the stanchions exposed, no inner bulwark planking. my dilemna is whether the covering board should also go on top of the hull planking, or butt up against it. i hear this is a problem area with many anglemans.

Sent you a PM with info pertaining to this aspect of Sea Spirit repair. Just trying not to get too far offtopic..