Dory Ballast

[rdrishel]

After a long series of misfortunes I finally have my Swampscott Dory built from the plans in Gardners book ready to go sailing. He makes mention of ballast there but has no information of consequence. Are there any thoughts on the what, where and how much to use. It may be worth noting that I built a sail boat w/o knowing how to sail but I learn fast!

[Thorne]

Try it in light winds with no ballast. Learning to sail, particularly in a new boat, is challenging enough without complicating it with any other factors.

Best way is to lure experienced sailors into sailing with you, as they will have a lot of knowledge you can pick up without having to learn it all the hard way.

In my experience with dories, ballast is used for two primary purposes -- sailing and rowing, and I think it is more important for the latter.

You can shift your (and your crew's) weight around when sailing, but are fixed in place when rowing. And if rowing across the wind or upwind, you may find that a full collapsible water jug (or two) provides critical weight forward, allowing you to row a much straighter course. The nice thing about these jugs is that you can empty and fill them at need, and they pack down nicely to save space when not in use.



I row and sail a very similar boat, as the Chamberlain dory skiff is the front 4/5th of a Swampscott. I have lead sheets cut into sections (and wrapped in duct tape) that fit under my removable floorboards, but rarely use them for sailing. Traditionally dorymen used a 'dory stone' as ballast, but others here recommend canvas bags of gravel or shingle as less damaging to the interior and paint -- the essential part of this is that the ballast material was free.

What sort of sailing rig do you have? Here's the woife and meself sailing SF Bay off Point Richmond -

[Bob Cleek]

I don't have any hands-on experience with the Swampscott dory. However, ballast is REALLY important in any dory I've ever used. Dorys are designed to carry a goodly load. They are light. If they aren't loaded, they ride high in the water. It's the dory's chines that give it directional stability. The flare to its sides give it bouyancy. (Which is why they are initially very tender and then harden up as the rail goes down.) An underballasted dory will be unstable. You want to get those chines down where they should be, either with cargo, or ballast. Sometimes two or three fat guys is plenty. Other times, you need something else. Traditionally, smooth stones were used for ballast. If the dory is dumped (and if you are learning to sail, that is a distinct possibility) the stones just fall out and sink to the bottom with no big loss. You wouldn't want that happening with a bunch of nice lead pig!

Take a look at Gardner's plans and aim for the waterline he indicates. It may take a bit to bring her down on her lines. Keep in mind the weight of passengers and cargo, then start putting a few stones in her until she is where Gardner said she should be.

[rdrishel]

I have the boat rigged as closely to Gardners plans as I could make it. The boom is much lower in the boat than your picture shows your loose footed sail.
I have often read that dories were intended to be used loaded, but was not sure what that meant. I have sailed the boat a couple of times and was concerned about the lack of stability which is why I am asking about the need for ballast. I had not thought about referncing the plans for a waterline to work from. My 220 lbs plus gear had very little effect on the boat.
I have been thinking about launching it in the swimming pool to let it take up water so I may do that and see about the ballast. Is the idea to get the ballast weight evenly distibuted or should it be placed for best results while underway? I talked with Mr. Gardner once when I was building it and he said lots of the boats are out there so maybe another owner could offer some help too. I am thankful for the quick and cogent responses.

[Ian McColgin]

I am not so sure about the value of ballast in a Swampscott. This is a projection from sailing my Leeward, a Chamberlain gunning dory with sections very like the Swampscott.

The traditional dory with its narrow bottom and very steep dead rise is quite tippy when light, basicly inefficent to row or sail, and does absolutely need ballast. If you fish, take rocks and toss some out for the fish you take.

The Camberlain and Swampscott shapes, however, have low-angle garboards before the mayber 45 degree angle of the mid-strake and vertical rise of the shear strake. Initially tippy, this shape hardens right up with a little heel. I could walk Leeward's gunnel and I weigh 250#. And they row well light.

For sailing, a bit of weight in the bottom of a shallow boat is not nearly as valuable for righting moment as parking your butt over the weather rail.

So, experiment but I'm betting no ballast needed.

G'luck

[Bob Smalser]

No harm in experimenting with ballast.

Head over to Walmart or Sportsman's Warehouse and buy a few of the 15lb bags of the lead shot that comes in muslin bags. Soak the bags in copper napthanate to prevent mold and they'll last many years. Two or three shot bags placed on either side of the CB may add some stiffness to your rig, and can be moved around to aid trim when sailing alone.

[rdrishel]

Ian,
I do think the boat rows rather well, especially when I remembered to put the center board down! I have more experience with that than sailing. However, it sounds like the issue of ballast may be like they say in Texas about eating hedgeapples "they are good if you like them". I will try to recruit my friend who sails to go along and offer an opinion on ballast. The news folks say ya'll are buried in snow up there. It is probably best for me not to describe our weather at the moment.
I am still open for opinions if there are any more out there.

[rdrishel]

I will get my hooks into those bags of shot but will tie them to the boat as a precaution against loss in a spill as per Bob Cleek.

[Thorne]

As for attaching the ballast, consider where you sail and how you'd recover from a knockdown. If you go offshore at all, or sail in remote locations, you may want to leave the ballast loose -- you WANT it to fall out of the boat if it is swamped and particularly if floating upside down. This makes righting the boat easier and increases your chance of survival if you have to bail out the boat on your own.

I think what Bob was saying is that it is better to use ballast like stones that are free to replace, rather than expensive lead. My floorboards are not fastened down, so in a capsize they'd fall out and let the lead sheet ballast do likewise.

You need to compare apples to apples when trying to determine if your boat is too tender or not. Can you tell us more about the materials, sailing rig, mast construction and diameter, etc?

See if you can hook up with you local TSCA or rowing group, and get opinions from some others, or even better get 'em in the boat for a sail. That way you can compare your boat to similar designs (pulling boats rigged for sail) and see if ballast is needed at all.

A dory like yours is certainly more tender than a wooden sailboat of identical length -- the sailboat can be up to 1/3 wider and will have much more of that width carried aft. But it is quite possible that your dory is just fine as it is for rowing under most conditions, and may need minimal ballast (if any) for sailing.

You also might gain a lot more stability from building a hollow mast or changing the rig than adding ballast. Best to get a direct comparison with other similar boats before adding too much ballast -- as you can see in the photo of my dory skiff sailing SF Bay, the design doesn't have a lot of extra freeboard -- and I do take water over the gunwales sometimes if I'm not careful.

[boatbear]

I built the Sea Chanty (18' One Design) from The Dory Book. In the book, the owner of the first boats built describes the necessity for 200 lbs of stone ballast under the floorboards. My preference for ballast is two beamy women lounging on cushions either side of the CB case - I made my boat open rather than decked.

When sailing solo I take a couple of 20 litre water drums. I also pack a couple of wheat bags and a camping shovel. I can pull into a beach and fill a couple of bags with sand as required.

A friend of mine has a 13' dory, and used a bunch of cast iron blocks to provide ballast. He and his wife sailed it under one day and nearly lost the boat - she had to hold the boat up while he swam down to throw out the ballast which had slid down to the stem. You need sufficient buoyancy to cover whatever ballast you intend to use.
Charlie

[Ian McColgin]

Test test test. In still water put weight on the rail till the rail just touches the water. Maybe make a graph as you go recording the places of low form stability and places of high form stability.

Then secure a hundred pounds of sand just off-center on what will be the high side of the trunk and do the test again.

Try 200#.

Decide if the stability is worth the effort compared to just hiking out.

Recall that dorys mostly don't actually flip over but in a knock-down are about 45 degrees or so over and with water cascading over the lee side mostly slide into the water, especially if you're following the natural human pattern of climbing to the high side. They can flip but not all that often. Now think about sliding into the water with all that ballast helping the boat settle down.

Finally, try rowing with various levels of ballast, both live and dead. A dory like Leeward - very like the Swampscott - could handle amazing loads as we found one night when we sarenaded Oak Bluffs rowing about with 16 people aboard and that was not near her capacity.

Light Leeward was very easy to row in all sea conditions and faster than laden except going to weather. Loaded she had a very distinct practical hull speed, like hitting a wall. Up to that speed once moving she was easy to row. There was no getting past that speed - somewhere between three and four knots, no matter what, even with two rowers.

I don't see the point to ballast in a Swampscott.

[Ian McColgin]

There are boats that really need ballast. A friend took the lines from some book of an 18th early 19th century peapod and built it. What a crank. The boat was almost dangerous, he complained. So, recalling a bit of history I went down with him equipped with a shovel. We put her in the water and to his horror I started shoveling sand aboard. Stopped when I'd got her down a good six inches and we went for a most satisfying row.

Similarly, when I was using a friend's traditionally shaped but short (16') Banks dory, I ballasted.

[L.W. Baxter]

A few summers ago, I launched a 17' Dion Swampscott built to plans from The Dory Book. I used the sailplan as drawn, with no ballast, and it works fine. The sail area including jib is only about 70 sq ft and low in aspect, so the performance is likely also low. But if, like me, you haven't done much sailing, you won't have much to compare it to and therefore won't really have reason to be disappointed.

I've sailed in fairly blowsy conditions a couple times and have not capsized, or even come close, really. I don't think ballast would help at all for my setup. I'd definitely try first without it, were I you.

[rdrishel]

I am really enjoying this commentary and see the merit in the variuos points of view. It is true that I have no idea how well the boat is performing since I have no experience to draw from. I expect that IAN is on the right track. I should try it empty and then loaded. I live in a part of the world that is rockless but sand is everywhere so I will take the shovel and some bags along. I am happy to provide the particulars Thorne but you may regret asking. I will consult with my teen daughter about a digital photo that I can post with the building info. The boat really looks nice sitting on the trailer.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

In Dove, the 16'7" Atkins Dory Ketch I have, the skeg ballast is 220 pounds, and the internal, in lead plate, is about 350 pounds.

[JimD]

Peter, 570 pounds total ballast?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Yep, and to top it off, I have had 3 adults out sailing in her, and it doesn't make a dent in freeboard...so thats a total load of over 1000 pounds.

[Nordicthug]

Cheap, chuckable, easily handled ballast:

Mesh onion sacks filled with fist sized rocks. Fill each sack with +/- 30 lbs. of nice round beach rocks. In extremis, heave overboard as required, no loss and the sacks soon disintegrate. Get more at the grocery store for the asking.

Chea......Frugal ol'

Gerry

[skuthorp]

"My preference for ballast is two beamy women lounging on cushions either side of the CB case"

It's not a dory but ballast makes a big difference in my Mac. I take a lady (SWMBO won't come) who got adult polio as my ballast. She sailed as a teenager but hadn't been in a boat for 28 years. George and I designed a gantry to get her intio the boat dry, even made a model. Last year they bought a Mirror, much mirth as her husband learnt the vagaries of a sailboat. This year there's a new boat I'm told and I'll see it at xmas. It's back to sandbags for ballast for me!

[Paul Pless]

Yep, and to top it off, I have had 3 adults out sailing in her, and it doesn't make a dent in freeboard...so thats a total load of over 1000 pounds.

Have you thought to add a few hundred pounds of cod?

[boatbear]

Quote "I do think the boat rows rather well, especially when I remembered to put the center board down!"

I had to use the centreboard to assist tracking while rowing until I installed a skeg. The boat just wanted to turn sideways. The skeg is about 1200mm long by about 150 deep at the stern, (4' x 6"). It made a huge difference.
Charlie

[JimD]

The boat just wanted to turn sideways. ....
Charlie

Charlie, do you mean weather helm from a beam wind or it just yawed out of control?

[rdrishel]

Well, I do like the onion sacks and smooth rock idea but would probably have to travel several hundred miles to find the rocks described. Here on the Northern Gulf of Mexico we have sand. Although in this post-Katrina setting we have lots of big chunks of broken concrete I could access. It would be nice to know the displacement of the boat. That would help with working out the amount of ballast it would carry.
I really like the idea of cod as ballast but have the same problem as with the rocks. Now mullet would be a different story.

[Daniel Noyes]

Mr Rdrishel
I think the first post (Thorne) was the answer to your question. For a traditional built dory to Gardners plans I would go with a ballast that will float free in the event of a swamping, anything heavier than water is dangerous especially far from shore or for a beginner. It is wonderfull that you built a dory, Photos? You should have fun learning to sail in the boat as it seems that the sailplans gardner included are on the small side but quite adequate. you mention the low sail with steeply raking boom, your Swampscott style boat should sail well it. The shape is the quintesential dory sail plan, I used this traditional shape on the Ipswich Bay 18' sailing dory and she moves well in a 10 mph breeze. Please keep us up to date on your sail trials
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[boatbear]

Charlie, do you mean weather helm from a beam wind or it just yawed out of control?

Jim, the Sea Chanty has a bottom shaped very much like a surfboard. Without a skeg, it was pretty hard to keep her in a straight line - or rather, when I stopped rowing she would go in whatever direction took her fancy.

Further to the discussion, I have found that the conditions dictate the amount of ballast required. In light air, sailing solo, I don't need any at all, and she ghosts along very well. In a blow I need those couple of bodies and added water or sand ballast, and getting her down near her waterline makes her feel very stable. My advice is, be prepared - reef as required and carry some means of adding ballast to get home if it gets nasty.
Charlie

[boatbear]

Quote from Skuthorp "It's back to sandbags for ballast for me!"

Sku, perhaps you could advertise - "Wanted, beamy woman, on call as boat ballast." Might work, might not. Sandbags don't offer much in the way of conversational opportunities, but they won't drink all yer beer either.
Charlie

[rdrishel]

Freinds in the Forum, I hope to have a more complete response, to include pictures, later in the day. I never expected such a wonderful response from the forum.

[skuthorp]

Boatbear, when I was young and sailing catamarans on Port Phillip Bay you'd test the wind before the days races and if it looked like i needed a 'crew' I'd wander up the beach where a bevy of young ladies sat jus hoping someone with a yacht would ask them out for a sail and pick out one of appropriate 'ballast weight' for the day. And if she enjoyed the trip, well drinks were in order in the club bar, and then, maybe............. Ah!, those were the days!
Of course sometimes a squall came up. She got seasick, cold, terrified, and a beautiful friendship came to an abrupt halt!

[rdrishel]

Friends in the forum
Since you have responded so geneously to my original question I thought I should make a more complete report. The Dory I built over an eight year period is from the directions given in "THE DORY BOOK". It is properly called a Beachcomber-Alpha and the instructions begin on page 209. Each piece of lumber in the boat has a story of its own but let me just say the bottom is cypress, the frames are natural crook live oak, the stem and centerboard are mahoghany, the original transom was live oak recently replaced with douglas fir, the planking and spars, and centerboard box are douglas fir, the gunwales are live oak and the caprail is longleaf yellow pine, the tiller yoke and rudder(both new) are cypress. All of the screws are silicone bronze and it is rivited with copper rivets and roves. The sails were made by a professional. The finish is all paint.
I first saw a Dory while on vacation in Maine and found Gardners book on the same trip. I spent about eight years building this one. I also visited the one in the collection at Mystic and even spoke with Mr. Gardner on the phone. I recently finished replacing the transom, rudder and tiller yoke due to rot. I also had to rebuild the trailer. I have only actually sailed the boat three or four times and have no prior sailing experience.
So here is what prompted my question about ballast. Gardner, on page 221 of the book, wrote "The Beachcomber-Alpha is a good boat to learn to sail in. ................With a full rig, 50 pounds of lead ballast on either side of the centerboard trunk, and a crew of three hiked out on the rail, this boat will draw smartly to windward and handle like a spirited colt.
All of my sailing has been done without ballast and with a crew of me. So I was just wondering how to proceed now that I am back to having a boat ready to sail.
I have some photos and will try to find Thornes' instructions so I can post them for you on the forum.
Thank you so much for your interest and I cannot wait to hear more.
Rod

[rdrishel]

http://www2.snapfish.com/thumbnailsh...5/t_=116419525

[rdrishel]

The photos are in post # 30. I will work on putting them in the reply.

[Jay Greer]

"My preference for ballast is two beamy women lounging on cushions either side of the CB case"

It's not a dory but ballast makes a big difference in my Mac. I take a lady (SWMBO won't come) who got adult polio as my ballast. She sailed as a teenager but hadn't been in a boat for 28 years. George and I designed a gantry to get her intio the boat dry, even made a model. Last year they bought a Mirror, much mirth as her husband learnt the vagaries of a sailboat. This year there's a new boat I'm told and I'll see it at xmas. It's back to sandbags for ballast for me!

College Student seeks employment as movable ballast.

[boatbear]

A fine looking boat RD. At 21 feet, she's a big boat for one person in any but light winds. I would definitely be looking at finding crew and/or ballast. Are there no beamy women you could entice?

Failing that, sandbags and water containers would seem to be the way to go, given that they are an available resource. The advantage of water containers is that you can turn into the wind and fill up a couple while you are on the water, or tip them out if you find you have too much. They will also float if you sail the boat under. With sandbags, the trick is to have lots of them so each one is not too heavy to handle. Two-legged ballast is best, of course.
Charlie

[Thorne]

Try a search on photo hosting for tips on what works with this forum. I prefer www.picturetrail.com, others like other free hosting services. Your choice requires an account for us to view images.

[boatbear]

Picturetrail works for me too. I was only able to open that first picture on Snapfish, but I was able to save it, upload to Picturetrail and get the URL in about a minute. Let us know if you have any difficulties.
Charlie

[skuthorp]

"College Student seeks employment as movable ballast."

Aha! I could finally get the Fireball out fully rigged! Shame your'e on the other side of the pond!

[rdrishel]

[IMG]<style type=text/css>table.outerframe { width:30px;}</style><table width="174" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0">http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2376/10382833/18599627/294287532.jpg[/IMG]

[Thorne]

Right-click on the photo in Picturetrail, select "get image location" or whatever your browser's choice for that is.



Once posted on
the web, right-click the image to copy the URL (web address). Always test
first by pasting the image URL into the window of a web browser and see if
the image displays.

Remember, the IMAGE URL will end in .jpg, not .htm or html. URLs ending in .htm are the page that the image is at, not the image location itself. If the image URL ends in other code, try deleting everything after the "xxxxxx.jpg" part of the URL to get it to display on web forums.

Third - once posted on the web, try this procedure while logged in to this
Forum:

1. Click the "User CP" link in the browser window in the top left of the
menu bar.
2. Click the "Edit Options" link about 1/4 of the way down the left column.
3. In the "Misc Options" at the bottom of the next page, select "Enhanced
Interface" from the pulldown list.
4. Once this interface has been selected, in any "Reply" window you can
click the "insert photo" icon --> a little yellow square icon with the stamp
in the upper right corner, the mountains in the lower center.
5. Once the little dialog box titled "Please enter the URL of your image"
comes up, paste the URL of the photo in the field.

If unsure of the procedure, test first by pasting the image URL into the
window of a web browser.

[JimD]

Yep, and to top it off, I have had 3 adults out sailing in her, and it doesn't make a dent in freeboard...so thats a total load of over 1000 pounds.

The dory's load carrying ability is one of her better points, but all the same, the need for almost 600# of ballast to steady up a small open sailboat is what's wrong with some sailing dories. Sorry, Peter ol' man, but it seems excessive.

[boatbear]

Thorne and RD - Picturetrail is simpler than that. If you go to 'Photo Sharing' > 'Image URLs' it looks like this -


Click on the 'Forums [IMG] Tag:' for the picture you want and copy and paste directly into your reply.
Charlie

[rdrishel]

I am still working on it. Thanks for the help.

[rdrishel]

[rdrishel]

Well Boat bear and Thorne would you look at that. Too bad it is the same photo. I will try to get the others on picturetrail and see what happens.

[boatbear]

Well done, RD. It gets easier the more you do. It's good to set up Picturetrail with a bookmark and auto login (if your browser permits), so you go straight to the right page.
Charlie

[rdrishel]

Here are some more pics of the Dry in question.

[Daniel Noyes]

Very Nice RD.
when you mentioned you had built a gardner swampscott I didn't realize it was the Chamberlain Alpha!
4 juggs 4-5 gallons each, placed two on either side of the centerboard trunk should slow the heeling motion of the Alpha. you want to center the juggs fore and aft this will allow the bow and stern to rise and fall quickly in a chop without slowing your forward motion.
I'd be interested in your observations sailing the boat, tacking, windward ability etc. should be a very fast boat.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[bart]

I've built the 16' Modified Swampscott Dory and use it oar and sail about twice week year round. I've never used ballast per se but have had it loaded for trips and have found no advantage. Possibly it wasn't balanced right. There are a lot of other issues about the boat that make a lot more difference though. Email me if you want. I can't praise the design of this boat enough. For what I do it's perfect.

[Clinton B Chase]

RD,

This is a great thread; keep us posted. How does she perform coming downwind? Is the line steering tricky?

I do a lot of rowing with kids in Alpha-Beach dories and have been amazed at the load we can carry (6 people no problem) and still have more than enough freeboard and stability for being in rough water. This boat is very close to the top of my list for a build. How did you do the bottom? Or is it a plywood boat?

I've been reading about boats with water ballast and that seems like the way to go...you can empty it out while under way or scoop more up if you need to change the weight you have in the boat. We have lots of kids in the boat: I'd get fired if I scooped them out of the boat!

Cheers,
Clint

Cheers,
Clint

[Ian McColgin]

I'm for no ballast. Just get your and your crew's butts over the high side.

[rdrishel]

The responsibilities of the season have kept me off the water but I hope to have a report soon. The wonderful response has certainly given me some insight on what to expect.
Clint, The boat is all solid wood with a cypress bottom. The biggest lesson I learned is that traditional is a code word for labor intensive.
I will be happy to share my thoughts building and appreciate the interest in how the boat sails.
Happy New Year, Rod