Turning a Shields sloop (fg) open cockpit into a cuddy-cabin

[rbgarr]

Not my boat but I'll be following with interest: http://knockaboutsloops.blogspot.com/

[bamamick]

that's got to be one of the best and most informative web sites of it's kind. Super job there, and obviously we share a love of this kind of boat, but........

One of the Dragons that lives in Seattle has had many of the things that this fellow wants to do to this Shields done to it, and now the present owner is going to great expense to rip it all out and return it to 'Dragon' status. A person can do whatever they want with their belongings, but it hurts me to see a class boat changed so dramatically that the odds are when this guy's time with the boat is over that she'll wind up being chainsawed.

Just my opinion.

Mickey Lake

[sv Lorelei]

I have to agree with Mickey. Even when the factory does it.

In the sixties, Columbia Yachts came out with a 5.5 meter open boat with an eye towards developing it as a class racer for Olympic competition. The IOC didn't bite and within a couple years they re-released it with a cabin as the Columbia Sabre. Frisky boats, but not as fast as their open full out race machine brethren..and at 32 feet long and a bit over a 6 foot beam, not exactly a lot of peoples first choice as a cruiser.

Even the pros get it wrong sometimes.

[rbgarr]

This boat is probably lost to the class now, but it is a worthwhile experiment and you can still buy new ones. He even acknowledges that Shields 'purists' will be disappointed or even horrified. The boat wouldn't revert to class legal without some expense, specifically because the cockpit opening has been enlarged and the required air tanks in there have been removed. Chainsawing?? They are pretty cheap boats to keep on a trailer like the one he's got, so I don't see that happening.

The owner lives on Lopez Island where there's no Shields class racing and intends it for cruise/daysail only, like me. His desire is to have a 'classic gentleman's daysailer with a cuddy' in that size for as short money as he can. He seems to be going about it the right way, mocking up to get a good look at the three dimensional actuality versus the potential illusions of two dimensional drawings. It's also nice that he can see photos from across the continent and he and his builder are documenting progress on their blog/websites. I hope his enthusiasm for it all continues and he gets what he wants.

My daughter guides kayaking tours out there. I hope she'll be able to meet up with him and go sailing. She could compare the setups for me!

[Paul Pless]

next thing you know they'll be cutting the cabins and decks off of pearsons and turning them into daysailors

[TimH]

Would have looked nicer if he had rounded the front of the cabin trunk like the Dark Harbor 17 and put the mast thru the cabin trunk.

[bamamick]

I am just very glad that it's not a Dragon that I am seeing modified in this way.

Mickey Lake

[TonyH]

The UK magazine Practical Boat Owner ran a series in 1995 about doing this to a Soling. It came out looking OK IMHO, and several more of have been done.

[JimConlin]

next thing you know they'll be cutting the cabins and decks off of pearsons and turning them into daysailors

How many Pearson Tritons were built? 675? And they're so stout that I expect very few have perished. Could be a nice (and relatively inexpensive) one-design gent's dayracer.

[Paul Pless]

How many Pearson Tritons were built? 675? And they're so stout that I expect very few have perished. Could be a nice (and relatively inexpensive) one-design gent's dayracer.

done

[Bluenose]

Well this may be akin to throwing myself into the Lion’s den but I am the owner and instigator of this Shields conversion. This is the culmination of three years of planning, research and design so if the boat I end up with gets chain sawed by the next owner (which may be my next of kin) I will have failed miserably. But where the project stands now, that is just not going to happen.

All along one of my concerns was removing a class racing boat from the fleet that I have grown to love and admire from afar. So even though I searched for the better part of a year I always seemed slow to respond to ads and let countless “nice” boats go by.

The boat I ended up with just didn’t sell. She was one of the first batch of Shields produces in the mid 60s and looks to have had a long, hard life. Her inspection revealed some issues but disassembly has revealed many, many more. Both the headstay and traveler track failed during removal. The shroud fittings are bent from a previous demasting. There were two major repairs to large cracks in the deck and the decks had separated from the hull near the chainplates. The plywood in the seats was saturated with water, etc, etc, etc. In addition this boat has already had one owner who chose to upgrade to a newer class boat in favor of renewing this old Shields. Although a handful of these older Shields are still competitive nationally in the class most of the top boats are much newer and that seems to be the trend.

A very important aspect of this project is the quality, integrity and aesthetic sense of the builder who is performing the work. This is shown clearly in the previously posted photo of his Triton Daysailor project. Neither of us is going to let this become a “Columbia Sabre” or the like.

I am not expecting or trying to change anyone’s mind but in my opinion (admittedly biased) I think I am providing an tired old race boat a new lease on life.

Cardboard Mockup

[seayou7]

Blunose, Good looking vessel! Tough being criticised for altering a boat others love (love; by definition/irrational). That would be part of the sport, the part that happens off the water.
I would be curious how this rebuild compares to a new build. Reflecting on the six meter issue of WB, I would love to wade into those waters. The prospect of being released from dependence on boat yards is the goal while still having a thrilling sailboat.
Nice trailer. In Alabama the lake sailers have an extendable tongue, allowing roll off launch for the J22 fleet.
Have fun!

[rbgarr]

Bluenose,

I noticed the dilapidated condition in Tim's condition report and was amazed. That boat had been badly abused. The forestay fitting through the deck was truly alarming. I agree about the non-competitiveness of the boat and it would have cost anyone who wanted to make her so more than a good used or maybe even a new one.

Do you know which fleet she was originally part of when new? It must have been one of the service academy boats based on the hull number. King's Point perhaps?

[Bluenose]

Bluenose,

I noticed the dilapidated condition in Tim's condition report and was amazed. That boat had been badly abused. The forestay fitting through the deck was truly alarming. I agree about the non-competitiveness of the boat and it would have cost anyone who wanted to make her so more than a good used or maybe even a new one.

Do you know which fleet she was originally part of when new? It must have been one of the service academy boats based on the hull number. King's Point perhaps?

Yes, I believe she was one of the original King's Point boats.

[ahp]

I remember when the Shields first appeared, and I wrote to the builders if they would ever make a cruising version. I got a very unenthusiastic reply. Some time later they did build a cruising version with a small cuddy cabin.

[rbgarr]

Could that have been the Atlantic class boat? I've seen the fg version in both open cockpit and molded cuddy cabin decks.

[JimConlin]

Could that have been the Atlantic class boat? I've seen the fg version in both open cockpit and molded cuddy cabin decks.

According to Cape Cod Shipbuilding, the Atlantic was (adapted to FG from) a Starling Burgess design.
Wasn't the Shields by S&S?

[Bluenose]

According to Cape Cod Shipbuilding, the Atlantic was (adapted to FG from) a Starling Burgess design.
Wasn't the Shields by S&S?

The Shields was definitely a Sparkman and Stephens design. And to the best of my knowledge they were only produced as open boats. I believe that Chris Craft and Cape Cod both produced the Shields and Atlantics in the past. I have also heard rumors about a Chris Craft produced Atlantic with a cuddy cabin. Although I have not seen one.

The fiberglass Atlantics were adapted from the wood boats and the Shields were designed from the start as a fiberglass class.

One thing I found quite interesting is this modified Atlantic that Starling Burgess designed. A shallow draft "cruising" version with the same hull and sail plan as the original Atlantic. Looks like she might have been fun.

[rbgarr]

I spoke to Olin Stephens at a conference and he said the Shields design was influenced by the 5.5 meters Olympic class boats of the era. If I understood him correctly (reading between the lines of his ever subtle comments) he was not altogether satisfied with the design of the keel.

[lagspiller]

Hey ho, Bluenose. I think it is beautiful. The Shields and the US 1 are two of the absolute nicest 'modern' designs on the water. I agree completely with your reasoning - it is better to save a worn racer and make something that can be used for generations to come than to preserve an uncompetitive boat that will never give joy in the fleet in which it was originally designed to compete. A poor racer is hell to own. A fast, beautiful cruiser is FANTASTIC.

If it is any consolation, given some of the comments, this is standard proceedure for old 12 meters. They resurface after their competitive racing years are over as fantastic cruiser/racers.
You are following up a grand tradition.

[Bluenose]

Hey ho, Bluenose. I think it is beautiful. The Shields and the US 1 are two of the absolute nicest 'modern' designs on the water. I agree completely with your reasoning - it is better to save a worn racer and make something that can be used for generations to come than to preserve an uncompetitive boat that will never give joy in the fleet in which it was originally designed to compete. A poor racer is hell to own. A fast, beautiful cruiser is FANTASTIC.

If it is any consolation, given some of the comments, this is standard proceedure for old 12 meters. They resurface after their competitive racing years are over as fantastic cruiser/racers.
You are following up a grand tradition.

Thanks for the kind words. You have pretty much nailed my sentiments. I can't begin to describe the hoops that I have jumped through to keep the existing standing rigging and sail plan intact. For me performance was paramount. There are many, many ways to fail in a project like this. One of them is adding too much weight and degrading her performance. My total weight allowance including the structural changes, all equipment, supplies and my wife and I is about 3/4 of the allowed crew race weight.

Funny you should bring up twelve meters. In the old days they referred to the Shields as a mini twelve meter. Maybe just a bit of marketing.

[Bluenose]

I spoke to Olin Stephens at a conference and he said the Shields design was influenced by the 5.5 meters Olympic class boats of the era. If I understood him correctly (reading between the lines of his ever subtle comments) he was not altogether satisfied with the design of the keel.

Oh great! Now I find out about this. Well what would a boat be with a wort or two.

[KristianCYR]

The Shields has only been produced as is, although there has been at least one other cuddy cabin conversion that I know of. That owner took his down to the Caribbean,

As for the keel, I heard the same sentiment when Olin visited the Shields 40th anniversary national championship, but he was referring the build of the keel. The keel molds were originally made assymetric, and it's been an annoying facet of one design racing that you have to keep them that way! I can tell you from much experience that the boat is balanced very well, and is still my favorite boat to drive upwind. Once trimmed right, they just go and go.

[Tom Robb]

As someone suggested, the forward end of the cuddy is too abrupt - too squared off.
Yes, yes, beauty is alleged to be in the eye of the beholder, but it's also in the thing itself.

[Bluenose]

As someone suggested, the forward end of the cuddy is too abrupt - too squared off.
Yes, yes, beauty is alleged to be in the eye of the beholder, but it's also in the thing itself.

Tom, thanks for your constructive comment. This is the comment that I have most often heard during this project and I waffled back and forth quite a bit before deciding on the final cabin concept. But I wonder if this is a matter of period styling rather than absolute beauty.

I also quite love the curved forward cabins of the older knockabouts like the Dark Harbor 17 from B. B. Crowninshield.

But latter knockabouts seemed to developed the flatter and sharper cabin fronts. Examples of these are the Dark Harbor 20 and the Alden Triangle.

From what I have read of these two designs, it is my understanding that they are considered classic beauties. I choose this direction because the Dark Harbor 20 (and Gimcrack) was one of Olin Stephens' contribution to the knockabout sloop concept. It felt right, and I love the look of the Dark Harbor 20, to design the Shields (also an S&S design) with this style in mind.

Here is a picture of Gimcrack that rgbarr sent me that really defines the look that I am going for.

Thanks again for the thought provoking comments. It always helps me to consider the rationale that I use to make decisions.

[Figment]

You simply MUST wear a suit coat and fedora while sailing this boat.

[Bluenose]

You simply MUST wear a suit coat and fedora while sailing this boat.

Drop that boat on my doorstep and I will head out to the antique clothing store.

[lagspiller]

I think the cabin looks right. Not completely unlike the cabin on my boat.

Except that mine extends beyond the mast.

http://www.22kvm.net/index.html for more of the above.

If you do find someday that you would like to extend the lines in the cabin forward, you can easily do that by adding a hatch with the forward corners forming a natural end of the extention of the cabin. That will fool the eye into making the 'connection' both in longitude and in bringing the top of the cabin down - a kind of illusion.
But from the photos, I think it looks pretty well thought out.

[rbgarr]

The reconstruction log on Bluenose's Bolero continues here. He generously gave me the old sheet winches and cockpit seats, which I will be adding to my boat for spinnaker handling and more seating in the cockpit. I also saw a transformed Triton-into-daysailer this past summer tied to a dock nearby and I'm wondering if it was the one posted above.

http://www.lackeysailing.com/

[rbgarr]

Progress on the Shields alteration is ongoing. The builder is to the stage of mocking up the interior and trying to find a way to fit a Porta-Potti in the cabin.

http://www.lackeysailing.com/bolero/march08/33108.htm

[Ian McColgin]

Bluenose, I think your conversion most intelligent. You already have my thoughts on a boom vang.

Enjoy and most marvelous sail.

[paladin]

There's a similarly modified Triton in Deale, Md. at Herrington Harbor North boatyard....looks NICE.....

[Bluenose]

Progress on the Shields alteration is ongoing. The builder is to the stage of mocking up the interior and trying to find a way to fit a Porta-Potti in the cabin.

Well actually not any more. The porta potti is out. It just didn't fit the space and the vision. Turns out there are some clever alternatives that actually work better for our needs since mostly we will be day sailing.

And here is an updated picture.

Bluenose, I think your conversion most intelligent. You already have my thoughts on a boom vang.

Enjoy and most marvelous sail.

Yes, thanks Ian.

I have looked into using a boom brake but I don't have any experience with them. Actually I have never seen one in person. My only thought was, would lines to the shrouds get in the way of going to the foredeck. I will have to look a bit more.

Cheers, Bill

[SchoonerRat]

I used to race those things back in college, but they sure didn't look like that. Even did a little cruising in them.

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

There's a similarly modified Triton in Deale, Md. at Herrington Harbor North boatyard....looks NICE.....

Hey Chuck, where in HHN? I'm over there occasionally to pick something up. Would love to see it.

AND, BTW, our club's new boat (to us) of which I am the Boat Capt... is at HHS. You will have to join me for a sail this spring/summer.


Dave Tew: yep, that's Tim Lackey's boat that was posted earlier. He of the TRITON381 restoration. Pics of both his Tritons were posted on the forum last year. And if I make it to Boothbay prior to the WBS I want a sail in your Shields!

[rbgarr]

Dave ,

Is that (WBS) the Show or the School for you?

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

Dave ,

Is that (WBS) the Show or the School for you?

Show, I (and the redhead and the red car) will be in Mystic at the Whaler w/ all the other Bilgerats.


I'll pop you an email.

[paladin]

Dave......when you enter HHN...go completely through to the back portion where the offices for the marina are located....just as you pass through the "swamp" and come up on the curve, it used to sit to your left in the middle of the curve, second row back...got my attention when I drove through there. The guy was doing the bottom about a year ago.....I haven't been back there this year. They auctioned off several "abandoned boats last year, I bid on 3 of them, and then at the last minute they wanted to pay not only the fee for the boat, but a $500 "transfer fee" and the back storage....I told them to stuff it......they ended up eating the fee's etc......Ole Stuart wouldn't intercede as the manager makes him too much money, but most all the folks I know have bailed out and moved elsewhere...

[tprice]

This Shields conversion sounds similar....
I was looking for a project and had the chance to get a free Columbia Sabre 5.5 meter and do a similar project. Sawzall off that ugly deckhouse and build a nice one on that lovely 5.5 meter hull.
But out of the blue came just the boat I was really looking for, at a ridiculous low price, needing work but basically sound and fairly nearby. A BB 10 meter. I had wanted one for years ever since they were introduced to the US. My neighbor, Judy Lawson had one that she raced Transatlantic in an early OSTAR (she made it partway home but lost here rig).
I quickly forgot about the 5.5 project and bought the BB 10. (see pix)
A lovely boat, she has her roots in Scandanavian square meter classes.
In Conn. I saw an Etchells reconstituted with an attractive cabin and self bailing cockpit. I also remember an article in Sailing World (One Design & Offshore Yachtsman) about an Etchells conversion that sailed transatlantic.
My father had a Six meter with an attractive cabin. Awfully cave like below. (see other pix)
All this is to say that your Shields conversion is following a surprisingly well travelled path. Too bad most of the hugely overpriced "gentlemans daysailers" being produced these days miss the mark in their appearance.
Your conversion looks great. The flat front cabin is ok. The IOD has similar and it's the best looking boat ever designed (IMHO). Some (after the fact) comments. Taper the coaming from the deckhouse to the aft end a bit more. A touch more coachroof camber. Keep the house aft of the mast - having it come up through the house is structurally problematic and looks wrong.

[Bluenose]

tprice,

I am looking forward to seeing your pictures when you add the links. Sounds fun.

Your conversion looks great. The flat front cabin is ok. The IOD has similar and it's the best looking boat ever designed (IMHO). Some (after the fact) comments. Taper the coaming from the deckhouse to the aft end a bit more. A touch more coachroof camber. Keep the house aft of the mast - having it come up through the house is structurally problematic and looks wrong.

Thanks. I have often thought of IOD as the Shield's big sister. And it has been a big influence in some of my design decisions.

They also share some common history since the Shields class was conceived in 1965 by Cornelius “Cory” Shields and designed by Olin Stephens. Cory was also responsible for starting the IOD fleet.

Thanks for the design critique and suggestions. I am always grateful since I never know where the next great solution will come from. Here is my latest working sketch. I did keep the mast forward of the cabin for the reasons you mentioned. The design for the coamings and deck house camber have been fixed and partially built. They were influenced by the Dark Harbor 20 and IOD a modified as required for the Shields.

[Tanbark Spanker]

Can you afford to be 1 1/2"-2 3/4" more generous in the amount of crown in the aft portion of the coach roof? It might compliment the sheer line in the mid-section of the boat. Looks fine like it is.

[Bluenose]

Can you afford to be 1 1/2"-2 3/4" more generous in the amount of crown in the aft portion of the coach roof? It might compliment the sheer line in the mid-section of the boat. Looks fine like it is.

The aft cabin bulkhead has already been cut and installed so we have by definition the "perfect" Coach roof crown.

[tprice]

I used to own IOD #5 "Flicker" here on the Chesapeake. First IOD to ever leave the LIS fleet. She was dropped when new (1936) and repaired but sold and replaced to ensure the boats were identical. We owned her for 10 years back in the late 70s - 80s.
I had trouble adding pictures. I'll try again.
TP
By the way, the latest issue of ClassicBoat has a nice description of adding a new cabin top on a lovely Albert Strange yawl. Beautifully done.

[Wild Wassa]

Some boats turn heads.

Warren.

[Tom Robb]

...and some turn stomachs.
Not in this case, I trust.

[TimH]

Some boats turn heads.

Warren.

They look even better with the port light in the proper place (see my avatar). Some of these boats had a steam bent coaming that wrapped around the cockpit (sort of a mirror image of the front of the cabin trunk)

Very beautiful.

[tprice]

I found this mouldering in the back field of a Boatyard in Maryland (MIddle River). Looks like a Dark Harbor. I'm not a big fan of the bent round cabin front. The LFH Fishers Harbor 21 boats have a nice bent to a point cabin front. Squared off flat looks fine if kept low and with enough cabin top camber. A little sheer to the cabin sides helps a lot but makes plywood planking hard. Most of all, the ports have to be done right. They are the "eyes" of a boat. When you look at a boat, just as at a person, you are drawn to the "eyes" (unless other obvious attributes are irresistable)

[Canoeyawl]

There is an often-overlooked little detail to build a flat cabin front.
If is truly flat, the deck crown gives it the illusion of being concave.

To achieve a cabin front that appears flat you have to incorporate a small curve to that panel (athwartships). Maybe as small as only a half-inch, this is a detail that you will notice if it is not done. A mock-up will get it just right.

[TimH]

I found this mouldering in the back field of a Boatyard in Maryland (MIddle River). Looks like a Dark Harbor. I'm not a big fan of the bent round cabin front. The LFH Fishers Harbor 21 boats have a nice bent to a point cabin front. Squared off flat looks fine if kept low and with enough cabin top camber. A little sheer to the cabin sides helps a lot but makes plywood planking hard. Most of all, the ports have to be done right. They are the "eyes" of a boat. When you look at a boat, just as at a person, you are drawn to the "eyes" (unless other obvious attributes are irresistable)

We were trying to figure out what that was. Could be a Northeast Harbor A class. Did it have a steel fin keel?

[tprice]

From my "Schoettle" book, Sailing craft, and the Diane Esterly (?) book "Early One Designs", I think she is a BB Crowninshield design and related to the Dark Harbor. Probably exactly as you say, a NE Harbor 17 or Manchester 17. All variants of a similar boat. Steel fin keel. She has a samson post in her foredeck which the Manchesters had and her stern shape resembles it more than the Dark Harbor 17. She's pretty far gone and is a beautiful sight, regally, dying quietly among the grasses, surrounded by lesser craft.
I can send you better pix if you email me at tprice@usna.edu
I can't figure how to add decent pictures at only 19KB