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Thread: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

  1. #1
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    Default Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    I just started painting my deck with sani tred and it's by far the worst stuff I ever used! Absolute pig to work with. The first coat with permaflex was ok. Doesn't look fine and I didn't specify "tan" but well since it's more of a primer thought nothing about it.
    Today I started applying LRB and TAV and that's like working with mud. I tried to spread it with a foam roller, foam brush, normal brush, scraper, even with my bare hands but nothing worked to my satisfaction. I find it very hard to get consistent thickness. It won't bond to the permaflex at all, I can easily wipe it of. It doesn't seem to cure consitently possibly due to my changing the mixture over and over again.
    From the instructions it read like a piece of pie so I hadn't expected this desaster at all. At the moment I'm prepared to scrape it all off again BEFORE it cures. Costly experiment to say the least!

    HELP!

    Patric

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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!










  3. #3
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Have you called the Sanitred people? They seemed pretty responsive when I was looking into the stuff for my cabintop. I'd think they could help diagnose the problem.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Intercontinental calls aren't exactly cheap and at the moment I feel a bit like having been stupid enough to fall for the old snake oil ploy.
    I sent them a mail though.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    I know a few here have used it with success. Don't panic until they've had a chace to respond.

    Steven

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    I don't think I'd apply SaniTred on a cambered surface. had enough trouble with the slope of Marmalade's deck. One thing reading the directions told me was that it's a product meant for fairly level surfaces. Stuff is too thick in application for applications where gravity is a factor.

    Foam rollers are totally out and foam brushes even more so. I had very good luck with cloth rollers and plastic squeegees.

    Anyway, it's great where it works, as it has on Marmalade's deck, but I can see that knowledge of the product and application are critical.

    No real advice except you should have done like Joe CSH - test patches - and not like myself relying on luck. I had luck. You didn't.
    Not the product's fault.

    Hope you work it out.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Exactly. The lrb needs to have the thickening activator included befor use on anything except a flat level surface. For a plane old deck just put down the Permaflex, cover it with rubber granules, let set until tommorrow sometime then vac up the loose stuff and recoat with permaflex. Experience helps.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Oh yeah, it eats foam. I only use the lrb, thickened with activater, for fairing. The lrb fills voids and cracks pretty good. It can make a very nice feeling surface if used correctly (read:experience) kinda soft, and with the granules superbly nonskid. The very best use of lrb is to topcoat the permaflex/primer with a coat of non thickend lrb followed by rubber granules, then vac up the granules and put on a coat of permaflex AL.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    OK so here is the deal for me. I was stuck in a quandary with Dove. The deck was just painted T&G ply. Some rot but not much. The deck had never had canvas on it, we took off all the combings and rails and no indication of any tacks or remaining canvas, odd but true. Asked the pervious owners if there had been anything other than paint used they said nope. After we realigned the deck and gave it back its much needed camber, the decision on how to stabilize the deck was an issue. First though was to use traditional cotton / white lead and irish felt. But the deck itself was T&G so cracking and movement were a BIG issue. Then we though OK Dynel and epoxy again the T&G movement was a big deal. So we thought OK remove the T&G replace with marine ply and then go traditional Cotton and white lead. But what about a third option SANITRED. It was elastic enough to expand and contract the T&G and also hydrostatic to prevent water penetration. Best of all what was the down side ??? We would have to remove the deck and replace it with a solid ply deck? Well we would have to do that anyway. So why not experiment.

    This is the experiment. IT WORKED OUT FANFREAKINGTASTIC

    FULL DISCLOSURE



    Sanitred EEEEK







    Ohh the sarcralage

    FWIW the product worked FLAWLESSLY. The rubber grip is much softer on knees and feet than Dynel and epoxy and does not slip. Most important it MOVES (Dynel and epoxy do not ) and is 100% Hydrostatic. Welcome to the future my friends.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    The Website SUX !!!!

    OK lets start at the beginning.

    This is how I got Dove with her painted T&G ply deck. She was fastened with monel nails.



    Close up of the deck as she came.



    Close up of the T&G ( actually a very well done spline )



    Here is the deal. We scrapped, sanded the deck down to bare wood.
    After scraping and sanding the deck down to bare wood, we routed the seams to give us a fresh place to apply the LRB (Liquid Rubber Base) is a fluid rubber which will cure throughout its entire volume at ANY THICKNESS in 4 hrs or less at temps 70 F. We applied the LRB in the seems to give max expansion to the splined deck and the LRB is totally bondable. to the final Sanitred product.



    Initial samples of Sanitred products



    LRB (Liquid Rubber Base) is a fluid rubber which will cure throughout its entire volume at ANY THICKNESS in 4 hrs or less at temps 70 F. or higher (longer in colder temps). LRB cures reliably even in extremely cold temps, never produces gas during curing and does NOT generate heat as it cures. LRB is solvent-free, low VOC, low odor, molecularly welds to itself new to old; just to name a few of its unique characteristics. LRB cures to a hardness of “shore A" 65 which is as though as a truck tire and has 650% elongation.

    Then we mixed up the Sanitred permaflex, a little goes a long way. Using a couple of test strips we found that a good chip brush worked best and it had some self leveling properties. But be careful about pooling I have some too thick spots on the fordeck, but all in all a great first attempt. It also comes in a very nice light beige color.



    Its fairly easy to mask off traditionally. Then we used some very expensive ground rubber. It comes as a fine powder we chose the fine powder because the sanitred non skid powder was way too course and we wanted that canvas / Dynel look. So we sprinkled it liberally on the deck while the permaflex was still wet.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!



    Ta da



    It makes a nice clean line, all you have to use is Xytol (sp) to clean up.





    It also acts as a natural bedding for fittings

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Nice pics Joe, looks like the bomb, hopefully Patrick can get it to work like you did.

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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric D View Post
    Nice pics Joe, looks like the bomb, hopefully Patrick can get it to work like you did.
    You need to be patiant with the material and work it do not let the material work you. A little goes a LONG way.
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Thanks for all the suggestions, let's see if it'll work this time!
    Has been a VERY frustrating experience so far. After all those preparations (took me weeks!), sanding, removing putty, labelling everything etc. Sigh!

    I'll keep you posted,
    Patric

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Patrick, I understand how frustrating this must be. My experience w Sanitred is that like epoxy, experience working with it really helps. I have had glitches that also needed to be worked through. With regards the LRB, it can be activated in a number of different ways all which affect the thickness differently. You can cut way back on the TAV or use catalyst and water without TAV. You can thin with Xylene and smooth applied LRB by tailiing w a brush dipped in xylene. Most important, as suggested in a previous post, test drive the material and application methods before you work on the boat. Hope that helps.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    If it is not sticking please note that you must wash off the surface with dish soap and water. Sometimes it forms an oil on top of curing permaflex. So just wash it off no matter what between coats.

    I though people were using notched trowels to build up a layer of LRB and then using a smooth trowel to fill in and smooth it over. And then topcoating with permaflex and or granules. You dont need any LRB if the surface is already decently fair.

    When I first tried it out, I started test coating to see how it really worked.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Anybody figured a way to make it work on a cambered surface? Ultra thin coats? Perhaps hot-coated?

    I'm putting off attempting Marmalade's highly cambered coach roof until I've a handle on this, but I'd love to have it up there.

    On flat surfaces, it is lovely, self-leveling and all that.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    if we are talking permaflex and you are worried about runs, then thin it down with xylene and roll it on with a smooth foam roller.
    I have noted that if used straight, it is so thick viscous, that before it sets, it has a tendency to sag.
    experiment with about 50% thinned permaflex with xylene and see if that works.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    I'm considering using the LRB under traditional canvas on the highly cambered housetop of my catboat. I'm thinking it may provide a better, longer lasting base than traditional white lead or paint on the t&g pine. I am also thinking LRB and Sanitred may be an option on the laid decks in lieu of TDS and paint.
    Any new thoughts or experiences with these products?

    Ian, how are your decks holding up and have you done anything with your cabintop?
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Regular paint and grit on the coach roof and sanitred on the decks both just fine so far.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    All I can say is that I certainly wouldn't go for Sani-Tred again. The cost was much higher, no documentation/instructions to speak of and the deck still leaked afterwards. Sold the boat and first thing the new owner did was to scrape it all off. Not saying that you can't get Sani-Tred to work for you but it's certainly no magic wand.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Interesting how different experience happens. My work came out fine though I had some trouble with the forward half of Marmalade's deck due to the shere. SaniTred's very complete instructions make it fairly clear that the material cannot be happily used on a non-level surface. The directions also make clear why foam rollers and brushes simply won't work.

    I got the point early on and did not attempt, as Patric did, to apply SaniTred in a way that defied gravity.

    The lesson is that different products work in different applications and it makes great sense to find out these things in advance. Any product where the best method of spreading is by squeegee while walking about in golf shoes (really!) is pretty clearly not ideal for high camber coach roofs.

    Beyond that, it should be understood that SaniTred is even more vapor-impervious than epoxy soaked fibre glass. Without proper advance stabilization, SaniTred could be a great way to accelerate rot. That by way of heading off future bad trips like Patric's, though remarks on these pages did not save Patric so maybe words of warning are not that useful when we search for the Philosopher's Stone of woodenboats.

    Lessons learned.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    I never heard of the stuff till now!
    Ian, is it something you would use instead of dynel? Is it tough and waterproof or just" rubber muck " to be a soft non skid? How expensive? (as if that ever stopped me)
    I could go for some "vegetarian" non skid. Something that is not trying to eat my flesh.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    here is someone's boat bottom coated with permaflex
    the boat hull does not leak weep swell or rot and just grows a few barnacles and some algae.

    this shot shows where someone did a repair to the shaft log and a recoat in that area

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Excellent post PMJ. Thanks for the Dove update. As you know sanatred was the only modern goop used on an otherwise traditional restoration. Her garboard was chewed up pretty bad from ripping out and recaucking with gunk, and her knees were rotten and busted. We routed the seam and added a new spline and traditionally caucked, made new knees out of marine ply, so some traditional and some modern. Glad she's holding up so well Pete, some pics would always be nice
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Thanks for the input guys. I am happy to hear Marmalade's deck is holding up well but since my little catboat has just as much sheer as Ian's and likely even more on the cabintop it would seem the effort involved in applying the product may outweigh any benefits. I have always believed the old methods are usually the best but remain open to new ideas. My interest in using SANITRED was not to do a quick and dirty fix (I've already replaced any questionable wood) , only looking for a possible better solution. I read that the 28' Beetle built 'Kathleen' had her deck canvas laid in a rubberized paint and this lead me into looking at SANITRED. I guess I'll order my white lead and TDS caulk now :-)
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Peter,

    D'accord 100%. Really I shouldn't add anything to your excellent post but what the hell?

    There are really very few working shortcuts, although there are excellent new technologies. Selecting the proper applications is the key to success.
    I have no experience with Sanitred and can't comment on it but I would only apply a product (any product) used as a covering to asuage leaking very locally and would consider such an application remedial at best. More often than not there is a better cure for water ingress than a goop overlay.

    As a non-skid product, I don't know. That's not to damn it; literally, I don't know. Traditional non-skid applications abound and are easily mixed with the usual coatings (paint) without any risk of failure at all. Interlux Intergrip was the stuff I used last and it was easy to control in the usual manner. Everybody has their favorite of course, but I prefer the control that you get from a seperate
    roll-your-own product.

    And like Ian, I wondered why this product was being applied to a coach top that had so much camber in the first place.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Two more points for SaniTred -

    It's essentially self-cleaning. Don't use detergent, just water.

    It's non-skid is comfortable - like you can kneel on it wearing shorts with no skinned knees or bruising. As many of you know, several quality yachting gear outfits void any warrantee if the crew hike-out on a non-skid deck.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Looking at his failure photos makes little sense what happened unless there was surface contamination. It sort of looks like sanitred on top of oily surface.
    or perhaps not following directions. If he put the LRB on first sort of looks like that. You should put on permaflex first then LRB.
    The LRB you add thickening activator and you can use a notched trowel and go over when set with smooth trowel. I just dont know how people mess up but it happens.
    I never had any issues with it staying put. It does tend to run sag like when you put on too much paint. Put in on thinner, thin it down and that makes it a little easier to work if that is the problem. If your going on the top curved surfaces and it runs. also you can use a foam roller. But that wastes a lot. Mostly I used cheap chip brushes. The stuff flows out totally smooth so brush marks vanish and takes a little while to set up. It slowly gets more and more vscous as it sets until it wont move - flow anymore. So it looks like he used just LRB and made a mess of it.

    LRB is also very runny, you TAV and it then gets thicker, the more TAV the thicker it gets. Xylene is the only solvent.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Sani Tred - absolute nightmare!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post

    It's non-skid is comfortable - like you can kneel on it wearing shorts with no skinned knees or bruising. As many of you know, several quality yachting gear outfits void any warrantee if the crew hike-out on a non-skid deck.
    You're certainly more familiar with it than I am Ian and I've no reason to suggest that it's uncomfortable under "knee" but I will say that Intergrip shares the "comfort" quality if it is applied in a reasonably sensible pattern and quantity. That is, you can crawl across the deck without tearing up knees and arms. I'm not a vendor so I'm not trying to push it, just saying what I've found. Walnut shells and the like don't share that quality, and I have used that particular media before and agree that it's harder to crawl on and equally difficult to keep clean. It also seems to wear paint due to it's sharp edges. I have found that my decks now clean up (with Interdeck) about the same as they did when they were just painted, whatever that's worth. I applied it pretty lightly, just seeking a texture, not a look, and that may have made a difference.

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