Douglass Fir Alternative

[rbmichup]

I'm starting to build the pulling boat "Liz". The plans suggest the keel be made from 7/8" thick Douglas Fir. I'm having the hardest time finding DF in our area. I did an archive search using the Google approach (which still works very well by the way). I did not find a specific answer to my situation, but did find a lot of information about using DF as an alternative for other woods. I'm guessing, that with some care and limitations, the converse application, may work. In particular, white oak and cedar may be workable alternatives. Cedar is obviously not as strong, but it would not be too difficult to modify the plan slightly and make the keel 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" thick. Cedar is attractive because of its local availability (the appropriately named town of Cedarville is only 15 minutes away) and cost; white oak is also available , however.

Any thoughts on which approach might be better? Or other suggestions (the local lumber yard suggested Hem Fir, but the archives were rather clear on avoiding that alternative)? The keel will be about 15 feet long and about 10 1/2" wide at the center. The exterior will also be covered by a 3/8" white oak wear shoe, so the keel itself will never touch the water; plus the boat will be trailered.

Thanks for your help!

[JimConlin]

In these parts, the better lumber yards sell a 5/4x12 VG Douglas fir stair tread. That's what I used on my 'Liz'. Beautiful stuff.

[Nicholas Carey]

You're up in the U.P.?

Take a look at larix laricina, American Larch, sometimes called hackmatack, tamarack or just plain 'larch'. It's native to the U.P. (well...Maine to Minnesota and north to the treeline). It's tough, strong and traditionally used for boatbuilding, both in the US and Europe.

http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/Techsheets...rixlarcin.html

Should be just what the doctor ordered.

[Bob Smalser]

Your Northern White Cedar is an ideal planking wood for small boats, but isn't sufficiently hard or strong for a keel.

Your local durable alternatives are White Oak (White Oak, Swamp White Oak, Chestnut Oak, BUrr Oak and Chinkapin Oak) Sassafras, Tamarack, Black Walnut, Catalpa, Kentucky Coffeetree, Black Cherry and Black Locust. Be careful selecting any of these for dead-straight grain to avoid warp, and be careful selecting oak as a non-durable species from the red oak group may be mixed in.

Construction lumber locally available may include Western Larch and Doug Fir, both fine for your purpose. Avoid lumberyard Southern Yellow Pine as it'll be mostly sapwood.

As has been mentioned, for as little as you need, looking for cabinet and higher grade stock that may include clear, VG DF or WL doorjamb or stairtread stock may yield results. You can always lay up three narrow boards to get your 10 1/2" width and produce a stronger and a more stable keel than one from a single, wide board.

Or, just drop by this weekend and I'm sure I have a stick or two like that to spare.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Unless American White Oak is very different from English Oak, I'd steer clear of it for a keel of those dimensions on a boat that will be kept dry. I'd almost guarantee that English oak will check, if variously wet and dry, in those dimensions.

[ishmael]

There's a superstition about using black walnut in a boat here in Maine. Supposed bad mojo. It probably grows out of a local tragedy, though I think it fairly widespread.

Let's seeee, where you are like Bob says, white oak, walnut, sassafrass, cherry. I don't think any of them easily available from local sawyers where you are, but they are from not that far away. For a small piece like this contact a good lumber dealer and they'll be able to steer you. My inclination would be white oak from Indiana or Ohio. Or, consider mahogany.

[michigangeorge]

RBMICHUP,

Check your e-mail please

[mcdenny]

After watching a 12 yr old kid paddle around the harbor Saturday at the MASCF in a cardboard & duct tape kayak they made in a few hours I wonder if the notion of getting the "perfect" species for our little boats is a tad overdone.

[Lew Barrett]

Getting the right wood in is not overdone if you want to keep the boat for more than a few seasons. I suppose there are degrees in this, but the labor to build is, in my view, more valuable than the coat of materials. And the effort that goes into repairing an error is considerably more irritating than the time and money invested in making the right choice up front. What's the utility of the cardboard and duct tape boat in three years?

[ron ll]

Getting the proper material is important, even for small boats. I built this little skiff several years ago and I used what was sold to me as "marine grade" mahogany plywood. It had voids in it that I didn't discover when I built it. It went bad in ways that weren't worth fixing and now it is a decorative canopy over our back yard BBQ.

[JimConlin]

Liz is a fiddly boat to build and even if you spend top dollar, the cost of materials is very small relative to the amount of labor involved. Do it right.

[Chan]

Ron11
Bummer, nice job!
Did you buy marine plywood at a big box store??

[Ron Paro]

When I needed Douglas Fir for my sailing skiff, I went to my local Home Depot and sorted through the pallets of 4" x 4" x 8' DF beams, finding a few with straight grain and small, tight knots. Then I ripped these down and made laminations with the best pieces.

This was for my mast blank:


These were the laminations for the deck beam:


Ron
http://jimmyskiff.blogspot.com

[rbmichup]

Thanks guys for all the great input. I really hadn't given Home Depot much thought since the closest one is 80 miles away. I may be heading down that way around the end of October so I might just check out their 4x4's and door jambs and see if anything might be available. I also have a pretty good local lumber yard who is going to try to find DF someplace, and if not, he'll be able to come up with the white oak as the replacement.

Thanks again!

[michigangeorge]

rb, I just returned from Home Depot and they do have some good Doug Fir 4x4s as well as some 2x10 & 2x12 stock up to 16'. Not clear but some good lumber could be gotten out of it.
Now please check your Woodenboat Forum e-mail and do me the favor of a reply :-)

[neilm]

Northern White Pine ( also called Eastern White Pine) is often used for Dories. If you can find some old growth it's not bad. Not the best rot resistance though. Here's what the USDA Wood handbook says about it.

The wood has comparatively uniform texture and is straight
grained. It is easily kiln dried, has low shrinkage, and ranks
high in stability. It is also easy to work and can be readily
glued. Eastern white pine is lightweight, moderately soft,
moderately low in strength, low in shock resistance, and low
in stiffness.

Neil

[rbmichup]

rb, I just returned from Home Depot and they do have some good Doug Fir 4x4s as well as some 2x10 & 2x12 stock up to 16'. Not clear but some good lumber could be gotten out of it.
Now please check your Woodenboat Forum e-mail and do me the favor of a reply :-)

Sorry you didn't get my reply George. I sent you two messages yesterday directly to your MSN e-mail address. Let me know if you still didn't get them and I will try again as I had some possibly useful information for you.

[JimConlin]

What construction method is planned- as Ken drew it, glued lapstrake, strip composite, or ???
That might make a difference.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

I agree with Jim Conlin on the stair tread material. It was used on my temporary treads. Nice, verticle grain DF. They used crap on the stair stringers and the good stuff wasted as temporary treads. A good building supply should know where to get it.

[dmg]

Try www.theworkbench.com , they show as stock items, 1 x 12 VG Fir, and 2 x 6 VG Fir. Possibly best choice would be the 1 x 12 and laminate ?

They also deliver to you on Thursday and Friday.

Phone 1-800-292-5937, ask for lumber sales- Chris.

Dave

[rbmichup]

What construction method is planned- as Ken drew it, glued lapstrake, strip composite, or ???
That might make a difference.

Jim,

I will be using the glued lapstrake method. Since you have already built "Liz", I'd appreciate it if you had insights on the plans or boat that I should especially watch out for as I go along. I built a mock-up of the curved transom with some scrap cedar I had using your vertical grain approach, and it came out nearly perfect. Now I have to do it with some cherry.